The "salt water path or effect" is well known to anyone living near the ocean. I took my first trip in many years ealrlier this summer to the Great Plains, specifically Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, and was amazed how far AM signals travel, particularly in the daytime, (compared to New England). Is there any other area of the U.S. or any other large expanse such as Canada, Australia, Russia etc, where AM radio reception is that excellent or enhanced? Can anyone explain why this is so. Thanks, Bob (vibe)
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Best locations for AM radio reception.
- Thread starter vibe
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I lived in Utah for a few years and was amazed at how well daytime AM signals propagate. FM is also great. For instance, KSL puts a city grade signal into Wendover NV which is 130 miles west of SLC. This is due to a path over the Great Salt Lake and Bonneville Salt Flats. If fact, most of SLCs AM stations can be heard well in Wendover - even the graveyards at 1230 and 1490! FM is also aided because most of the antennas are located in the Oquirre Mountains at about 10000 feet, which is about 5000 feet above the valley floor. KSL's signal is enhanced because their tower is located in the salty marshes of the Great Salt Lake making for an excellent ground.
The "salt water path or effect" is well known to anyone living near the ocean. I took my first trip in many years ealrlier this summer to the Great Plains, specifically Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, and was amazed how far AM signals travel, particularly in the daytime, (compared to New England). Is there any other area of the U.S. or any other large expanse such as Canada, Australia, Russia etc, where AM radio reception is that excellent or enhanced? Can anyone explain why this is so. Thanks, Bob [/b] (vibe)
Bob....
Daytime propagation is all about ground conductivity. If you went from New England to the Great Plains, you literally went from one extreme to the other. Compare two 50KW stations at similar dial positions. WBZ in Boston on 1030 barely makes it to Springfield, despite the benefit of a "push" from a directional antenna. Meanwhile, WHO in Des Moines puts a signal into every square inch of Iowa, a state with a much larger area.
Or take WABC in NYC on 770. 50KW non-directional....compare it with KXXX in Colby, KS. 5KW non-directional on 790, with a daytime signal extending from The Texas panhandle nearly to South Dakota.
Bob....
Daytime propagation is all about ground conductivity. If you went from New England to the Great Plains, you literally went from one extreme to the other. Compare two 50KW stations at similar dial positions. WBZ in Boston on 1030 barely makes it to Springfield, despite the benefit of a "push" from a directional antenna. Meanwhile, WHO in Des Moines puts a signal into every square inch of Iowa, a state with a much larger area.
Or take WABC in NYC on 770. 50KW non-directional....compare it with KXXX in Colby, KS. 5KW non-directional on 790, with a daytime signal extending from The Texas panhandle nearly to South Dakota.
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
The salt water effect is indeed amazing. I lived in Daytona Beach Shores in the early 1990's, and was amazed to find daytime reception of just about every 50 kW station East of the Mississippi. Receiver was a GE Superadio 2. Absolutely consistant and dependable 1000 mile daytime AM reception. Daytona Beach Shores is built on a barrier island. I had an inlet of the intercoastal waterway behind my house.
Later, I moved 2 miles inland - ALL of the daytime DX was gone!
Just as a sanity check, I took a GE Superadio 3 down to Galveston and tried DX - same phenonmenon! Stations packed all over the dial - there are so many new daytime allocations on the "clear" channels that I've got no idea what the furthest signal was, but it was packed end to end with local sounding stations, every frequency, a whole lot in Spanish AND on the frequencies I know are allocated to Mexico City, etc. A couple of miles from the beach - all disappeared.
Later, I moved 2 miles inland - ALL of the daytime DX was gone!
Just as a sanity check, I took a GE Superadio 3 down to Galveston and tried DX - same phenonmenon! Stations packed all over the dial - there are so many new daytime allocations on the "clear" channels that I've got no idea what the furthest signal was, but it was packed end to end with local sounding stations, every frequency, a whole lot in Spanish AND on the frequencies I know are allocated to Mexico City, etc. A couple of miles from the beach - all disappeared.
Cyberdad- than what you are saying is that the type of soil has an effect on how well AM signals propogate during the day? My old vehicle, a Ford Ranger had terrible AM reception during the day, quite well at night. (The FM was really good). My new car, a Pontiac Vibe has a terrific AM radio (so-so FM). I remember receiving the major Chicago stations near Des Moines on seek (like locals). And the 1000 watters seemed to go out 100 mi or so, unreal. And the radio works well even in New England, which is what you said, has poor ground conductivity. Are there any other areas that are even better than the U.S. great plains fro AM radio reception or did I hit the 2 extremes (except for the salt water path that Bruce C. has also encountered?
There's no soil type with anywhere near the ground conductivity of Salt Water. The Great Plains is about as good as it gets for soil ground conductivity. But even the prairie isn't all good....Ground conductivity is pretty lousy in the Sand Hills region of Northern Nebraska. Worst region in the U.S. is basically New England.
In my car, I've listened to the 5,000 watt signal on 820 from Chicago in West Des Moines at high noon, so some of the coverages are pretty amazing.
You can view a ground conductivity map at this website: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/m3/
In my car, I've listened to the 5,000 watt signal on 820 from Chicago in West Des Moines at high noon, so some of the coverages are pretty amazing.
You can view a ground conductivity map at this website: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/m3/
I used to cross the Mississippi river daily between Quincy, IL and Hannibal, MO and the difference once you crossed the bridge (especially the one between Quincy and West Quincy (MO). It was literally like my antenna was disconnected and was reconnected on the Missori side. In Quinny, KMOX is weak. Crossing the bridge, WLS went from barely there to reasonably strong during daylight. You'll hear 250-watters in Missouri calling themselves "Regional Radio".
CD- thanks for that link to the map-guess I was in a "hot spot" in kansas and central Neb- could previously not fathom how much the ground is condusive to a strong (or weak) AM signal-during the day. Plan on seeing Western Nebraska next summer- the reception may be what I'm already used to in New England but the distances...
Regarding the salt water path we can get WWL all day long (so so) in Englewood Fla (the place is about 2 mi from the Gulf) When you drive right to the water( well almost) the station comes much better, not like a local. Next time I'm there (Oct) I'll drive to the beach and see what I can get (stations that is) and report back. I'm especially interested in seeing if any of the Texas stations make it across the Gulf (that's a long way) during the day. With a good car radio, it should be fun.
Thanks guys, for the expanations on conductivity.
Regarding the salt water path we can get WWL all day long (so so) in Englewood Fla (the place is about 2 mi from the Gulf) When you drive right to the water( well almost) the station comes much better, not like a local. Next time I'm there (Oct) I'll drive to the beach and see what I can get (stations that is) and report back. I'm especially interested in seeing if any of the Texas stations make it across the Gulf (that's a long way) during the day. With a good car radio, it should be fun.
Thanks guys, for the expanations on conductivity.
Thanks-I'll check it out in Oct, getting a list of possible targets like the Houston 50kw AM's and some of the lower band 5kwers and report back. Is this true DXing where you pick out your targets ahead of time? Catching Texas from Fla would be a stretch but the AM radio in my car works quite well. Nothing ventured...
vibe said:
Vibe... I suppose it is. I never took it all that seriously. Since I was a teenager in the 60s, all it involves for me is having a good radio, playing with it, and seeing what I can pick up. Off the top of my head, I'd say your best bet for your "expiriment" might be KTRH 740 in Houston. Directional with a good portion of the juice going south and east. Theoretically, their daytime signal just might make it, but depending on your location, you may encounter problems from an Orlando station on 740. KTCA in Corpus Christi on 1030 might also be worth a try, but that channel has become more crowded as of late. Not sure what the DA pattern (if any is).
I was thinking of KTRH 740 as a possible catch from the Texas mainland to SW FL. Thanks for confirming this and for the other 2 possible stations. I have this old Sony Walkman w/ a real good AM tuner. I'm going to step into the salt water and see if that helps or whether using the car radio (on shore) is any better. Why not experiment? Again thanks.
I've always been amazed at how well AM radio travels over salt water. Living a mile from the Connecticut coast in the 1960's, I used to have pretty decent reception of Virginia Beach on 1550 (I think it was WBOF). They were just 5000 watts non-DA.
Even more amazing was WOBR "Outer Banks Radio" from the Outer Banks of North Carolina on 1530, which signed on the air in 1970, with just 250 watts non-DA back then. With the help of a good DX receiver, and a directional loop antenna to null down a New Jersey station on the same frequency, I could regularly receive WOBR in Connecticut, albeit weakly. I was particularly amazed that my most distant regular groundwave (sea-wave??) daytime reception was a 250 watter!! The distance was well over 400 miles. Then a few years later, WDJZ signed on 1530 a couple miles away from me, and that was the end of WOBR!
Anyway, this thread about the possibility of receiving Texas AM on the Florida coast intrigued me. Regarding KTRH-740, they actually pull their signal back a bit ot the East (and North), so the effective power toward Engelwood is about 22 kw. (They beam about 100,000 watts to the South, South-west, and West). Additionally, ther KTRH antenna site is quite aways inland, so the signal will be somewhat weakened before it starts its over-water journey. And, the KTRH towers are far enough North that the KTRH-to-Engelwood signal path might actually clip Louisiana, which would further weaken the signal. I'm going to look further into the possibility of KTRH reception in Florida over the weekend.
Meanwhile, I did some rough calculations on KCTA Corpus Christi, 50000 watts non-DA with a clear shot across the Gulf. The KCTA tower is about 9 miles inland, but with excellent ground conductivity in that area, the signal is not weakened too much. I calculate a received KCTA signal strength in Engelwood of approx 17 uv/m, which is quite weak, but receivable with a good enough receiver. That's a distance of 913 miles!! There would be a few possible difficulties, however. First, interference from adjacent channel WWBA-1040 from the Clearwater area. You'd need a radio with very good selectivity to separate KCTA. Also, there might be other interfering signal from the South... such as Cuba or Mexico. I haven't searched for possible interfering signals. And thirdly, there's that darn lightning static... which by the way also travels exceptionally well over salt water. At least KCTA is a possibility. Also note that KCTA SKYWAVE probably pounds into Florida for quite a while after sunrise, so you'd have to wait til around midday to have a shot at KCTA via groundwave.
I will be very interested in your results this October.
Chris from Poughkeepsie
Even more amazing was WOBR "Outer Banks Radio" from the Outer Banks of North Carolina on 1530, which signed on the air in 1970, with just 250 watts non-DA back then. With the help of a good DX receiver, and a directional loop antenna to null down a New Jersey station on the same frequency, I could regularly receive WOBR in Connecticut, albeit weakly. I was particularly amazed that my most distant regular groundwave (sea-wave??) daytime reception was a 250 watter!! The distance was well over 400 miles. Then a few years later, WDJZ signed on 1530 a couple miles away from me, and that was the end of WOBR!
Anyway, this thread about the possibility of receiving Texas AM on the Florida coast intrigued me. Regarding KTRH-740, they actually pull their signal back a bit ot the East (and North), so the effective power toward Engelwood is about 22 kw. (They beam about 100,000 watts to the South, South-west, and West). Additionally, ther KTRH antenna site is quite aways inland, so the signal will be somewhat weakened before it starts its over-water journey. And, the KTRH towers are far enough North that the KTRH-to-Engelwood signal path might actually clip Louisiana, which would further weaken the signal. I'm going to look further into the possibility of KTRH reception in Florida over the weekend.
Meanwhile, I did some rough calculations on KCTA Corpus Christi, 50000 watts non-DA with a clear shot across the Gulf. The KCTA tower is about 9 miles inland, but with excellent ground conductivity in that area, the signal is not weakened too much. I calculate a received KCTA signal strength in Engelwood of approx 17 uv/m, which is quite weak, but receivable with a good enough receiver. That's a distance of 913 miles!! There would be a few possible difficulties, however. First, interference from adjacent channel WWBA-1040 from the Clearwater area. You'd need a radio with very good selectivity to separate KCTA. Also, there might be other interfering signal from the South... such as Cuba or Mexico. I haven't searched for possible interfering signals. And thirdly, there's that darn lightning static... which by the way also travels exceptionally well over salt water. At least KCTA is a possibility. Also note that KCTA SKYWAVE probably pounds into Florida for quite a while after sunrise, so you'd have to wait til around midday to have a shot at KCTA via groundwave.
I will be very interested in your results this October.
Chris from Poughkeepsie
I used to live on the West Coast of Florida (Bradenton, Sarasota, and Venice) and spend PLENTY of time DXing every possible signal I could from that location. Sorry to say I never received any Texas AM during the day.
On 740 all I could get was a faint Cuban and WWNZ 740 out of Orlando (I think the calls have changed but you know what I mean)
The best catches I got during the day were 870 WWL (quite listenable if you can null out Clearwater's 860 WGUL) as well as 1060 WNOE (don't know if their calls have changed)
On 740 all I could get was a faint Cuban and WWNZ 740 out of Orlando (I think the calls have changed but you know what I mean)
The best catches I got during the day were 870 WWL (quite listenable if you can null out Clearwater's 860 WGUL) as well as 1060 WNOE (don't know if their calls have changed)
P
PaulBWalkerJr
Guest
When I was PD of "The Delta's Oldies Channel" 1520 in Marks, Mississippi (NW Corner of the state) I used to DX after we signed off. And Boy Oh Boy... did I get some amazing catches.
I often heard 770 WABC better there then when I lived in Connecticut. I als nabbed MANY low power AM's from there, along with my BEST EVER AM Catch, 680 KNBR. The electrical noise there was extremely low.
Another good location was Cocoa, Florida. Even though I lived within over 100KW of cobined RF, the reception was decent at night. Even better was on the bridge between Merritt Island and Cocoa.......... it was amazing what I could pick up there.
I often heard 770 WABC better there then when I lived in Connecticut. I als nabbed MANY low power AM's from there, along with my BEST EVER AM Catch, 680 KNBR. The electrical noise there was extremely low.
Another good location was Cocoa, Florida. Even though I lived within over 100KW of cobined RF, the reception was decent at night. Even better was on the bridge between Merritt Island and Cocoa.......... it was amazing what I could pick up there.
Thanks guys for the info- I'm pretty much a novice at this but determined. What sparked my interest in this stuff was getting a vehicle with a real sensitive AM radio and very low noise. In October, thunderstorm season is pretty much over. Might as well take a shot at getting Texas-I'll certainly be back with the results at some future date. Bob (vibe)
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PaulBWalkerJr
Guest
1060 is now WLNO... owned by the same company that used to own 1510 in Boston.
I can't do the mathematical calculations done by the last few posters but I did a little research of my own. Getting 1030 out of Corpus (during the day) is probably the most difficult-I remember a strong 1030 out of Cuba during the day. The chances (slim) of getting KTRH 740 out of Houston are slightly better as you go further south along the Gulf Coast (away from Orlando). There's theis neat little island-Boca Grande that if off the coast 9about 15 mi S of Englewood) and best yet, there aren't any AM stations nearby (FM or TV for that matter). I go there every once in a awhile when I'm feeling a little bit yuppy. (starter homes w a very very small lot go for 500K) The other station that piqued my interest as a possible is KLVI-560 out of Beaumont TX. it is a 5000 watter but directs a lot of power out over the Gulf. By going to north to Siesta Key (another cool place) the signal of WQAM 560 in Miami is degraded a bit. The only problem is a strong 570 out of Tampa(that gets a salt H20 boost)which may interfere w/ 560 but the car radio is quite sensitive. What could be a better way to spend an afternoon, having several tropical drinks, the sun, golf, and a little DX ing?
I think that interference from other stations rather than weak signals per se is going to be the insurmountable difficulty in getting Texas on the Florida coast.
As far as KTRH-740, their signal does indeed cross over a little bit of LA SW of Morgan City on its was to Englewood, but that may not make all that much difference. I roughly calculate a KTRH field strength of about 25 uv/m at Englewood. Weak, but detectable. However, WQTM-740 from Orlando may overwhelm KTRH. Looking at the Radio-locator mays, WQTM's signal is about 100 uv/m at Englewood. Going further South may help: KTRH may get a bit stronger, and WQTM may weaken. But then, there's always Cuba!
Looking at KLVI-560, they are non-directonal and closer than Houston, but the first 200+ miles is over the LA coast. Some of this is is salt marsh and some is open water (bays and such), so the signal may not be degraded as much as you might expect compared to going over the open sea. I'll give a rough estimate of 30uv/m for KLVI at Englewood. However, they may just be wiped out by WQAM-560 from Miami... much stronger with about 300 uv/m at Englewood. Also, adjacent WTBM-570 would definitely cause problems.
Another possibility, KEYH-850, which actually beams its signal East, but is located on the far side (West) of Houston and is at a higher (less desirable) frequency. Fortunately, Galveston Bay lines up to lessen the amount of Texas land KEYH has to cross on the way to the ocean. I'd estimate 20uv/m for KEYH at Englewood, but WFTL-850 from West Palm Beach would be stronger and make reception very difficult. Also, interference from WGUL-860 is likely.
As RMarino indicated in this thread, Texas daytime AM may simply not exist on the Florida coast.
Chris from Poughkeepsie
As far as KTRH-740, their signal does indeed cross over a little bit of LA SW of Morgan City on its was to Englewood, but that may not make all that much difference. I roughly calculate a KTRH field strength of about 25 uv/m at Englewood. Weak, but detectable. However, WQTM-740 from Orlando may overwhelm KTRH. Looking at the Radio-locator mays, WQTM's signal is about 100 uv/m at Englewood. Going further South may help: KTRH may get a bit stronger, and WQTM may weaken. But then, there's always Cuba!
Looking at KLVI-560, they are non-directonal and closer than Houston, but the first 200+ miles is over the LA coast. Some of this is is salt marsh and some is open water (bays and such), so the signal may not be degraded as much as you might expect compared to going over the open sea. I'll give a rough estimate of 30uv/m for KLVI at Englewood. However, they may just be wiped out by WQAM-560 from Miami... much stronger with about 300 uv/m at Englewood. Also, adjacent WTBM-570 would definitely cause problems.
Another possibility, KEYH-850, which actually beams its signal East, but is located on the far side (West) of Houston and is at a higher (less desirable) frequency. Fortunately, Galveston Bay lines up to lessen the amount of Texas land KEYH has to cross on the way to the ocean. I'd estimate 20uv/m for KEYH at Englewood, but WFTL-850 from West Palm Beach would be stronger and make reception very difficult. Also, interference from WGUL-860 is likely.
As RMarino indicated in this thread, Texas daytime AM may simply not exist on the Florida coast.
Chris from Poughkeepsie
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