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Best Sound Quality on Internet Stream?

Hi,

We operate an FM station in Bridgeton NJ and stream the signal via the Internet.

In all honesty, I am not content with our sound quality. Indeed there are many Internet only stations that have better sound quality than us.

For instance, listen to any of these two streaming only stations>>

http://www.justgreatradio.com/Ellsworth.htm

http://www.justgreatradio.com/AmericanClassReunion.htm


Can someone give us advice as to how to improve our sound? We currently run the station from a computer directly to our transmitter. For reply on the Internet we take the actual signal directly from a receiver tuned to the station and send it into another computer and then using the Windows Encoder the station is sent directly to our streaming service.


Something in this chain of transmission is causing the sound quality to deteriorate. Please help.

Joe Josh
 
> Hi,
>
> We operate an FM station in Bridgeton NJ and stream
> the signal via the Internet.
>
> In all honesty, I am not content with our sound
> quality. Indeed there are many Internet only stations that
> have better sound quality than us.
>
> For instance, listen to any of these two streaming
> only stations>>
>
>
> http://www.justgreatradio.com/Ellsworth.htm
>
>
> http://www.justgreatradio.com/AmericanClassReunion.htm
>
>
> Can someone give us advice as to how to improve our
> sound? We currently run the station from a computer
> directly to our transmitter. For reply (you mean replay or reply?)
on the Internet we
> take the actual signal directly from a receiver tuned to the
> station and send it into another computer and then using the
> Windows Encoder the station is sent directly to our
> streaming service.
>

That's your problem right there. First of all what is the your bandwidth. If it's narrow , it will sound lousy. Then re-distributing the sound and sending it into another computer is like making 30 copies of sound off a tape cassette to another. But I still don't get the last part your explaining about. All you need to do is have the streaming host distribute it. Just go 64k. That's all you need.
>
> Something in this chain of transmission is causing
> the sound quality to deteriorate. Please help.

Get rid of the chain.
>
> Joe Josh
>
 
Hi,

Thank you for your advice.. Unfortunately we could still have a problem. I suggested to the people at our streaming company that we would be interested in using the computer that sends out our normal radio feed to also send out our internet stream, but was told this could result in serious outages.

One tech person told me that we would be pushing the system too much. Indeed we would be sending out a stream, processing the programming through ourradio automation system and finally we would be sending new programs and songs into the same computer from our remote studio.

Am I asking for trouble???

J Josh
 
> Hi,
>
> Thank you for your advice.. Unfortunately we could
> still have a problem. I suggested to the people at our
> streaming company that we would be interested in using the
> computer that sends out our normal radio feed to also send
> out our internet stream, but was told this could result in
> serious outages.
>
> One tech person told me that we would be pushing the
> system too much. Indeed we would be sending out a stream,
> processing the programming through ourradio automation
> system and finally we would be sending new programs and
> songs into the same computer from our remote studio.
>
> Am I asking for trouble??? First I thought it should be okay , but putting in the audio back in again sounds like your working the computer alittle hard. You need one computer with 2.5 GHZ or more as a server. Automation system in it to stream out audio. And since you have a stream and host, You don't have to run anything back in the computer again for more programming.
When i run a radio signal...I plug monster cable into my headphone jack of my receiver that has my frequency tune to it and plug the other side which are RCA jacks into the transmitter input and it sounds alright, not bad, at 64k and uploading 112 or 256. Remember your FM channel is 200 khz wide which is more bandwidth then your computer output which is what I use at 64k. But i'm not over running my server. And it sounds OK.

But what I like to add is when i checked your link to your web hoster and streamers, they only had 16 or 20 K and that's probably why it sounds crappy or narrow if your going to redistribute back in the computer. Direct is Ok, but processing it again.
>
> J Josh
>


If your looking just to put out an internet feed, Live 365 would be fine as you can relay or stream live 24/7 without overworking or conlicting with your primary audio of your computer. You just use their server without conflicting with your transmitter audio signal.
 
Try stream hosting through webair or limelight Netowrks and stream at 128k, or 96k.

That's what I have for my radio station

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.ynotradio.com>http://www.ynotradio.com</a><P ID="signature">______________
Johnny Brasco
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.ynotradio.com>http://www.ynotradio.com</a>
24/7 Uncensored Rock and Uncensored Talk
</P>
 
Josh,

I know this post has been on this board for awhile so hopefully you're still looking for advice.

1. You've got a couple different things going on here so first things first; let’s talk about the bit rate.

Bit rate is important, but not the #1 thing you need to consider… If you don’t wish to cater to a dial up audience then you can give up on anything below 32kbps. A great (middle of the road) bit rate for broadband is 64kbps. 128kbps, as suggested by others in this post, is an excellent bit rate but could end up being pretty expensive in bandwidth fees so I suggest probably starting with 64kbps. Depending on how you encode the stream, you may be able to take advantage of an MBR (Multi-Bitrate) sreams in which you encode 2 streams into 1 (example: a 20kbps for dialup and a 64kbps for BB). Then when the stream is clicked on, the buffering time indicates what version of the stream the person on the other end gets. That way you can provide your webcast to dial up and broadband.

2. Second thing to consider so let’s talk about the source audio.

If I understand you correctly, you’re talking your off air FM audio and encoding it. If that’s the case, that’s another one of your problems. Whether you hear it or not, FM audio has noise in it. Noise that you’re streaming encoder (the machine you’re encoding with) will try to encode. The codecs that run on these encoders look for information they can disregard without affecting the original audio. That’s what allows you to get good audio at 32kbps. Providing your encoder with FM audio adds noise and makes the encoder work that much harder to determine what to keep and what to disregard. You would be MUCH better off to run the audio off a DA at your facility into some type of audio processor and then into the encoder. I’m not sure what your budget is, but Orban makes a PC based audio input card (sound card) that includes a DSP/audio processor built into it. I’ve heard it on the air and it sounds wonderful (model # PC1100).

3. Your question about using the same machine as your automation computer…

BAD IDEA. As someone has already mentioned, encoding takes a tremendous amount of system resources and would most likely kill both routines. You’re much safer running a separate machine to do the encoding.

If you want to speak in greater detail, feel free to email me at [email protected].

Take Care,
R.E.

> Hi,
>
> Thank you for your advice.. Unfortunately we could
> still have a problem. I suggested to the people at our
> streaming company that we would be interested in using the
> computer that sends out our normal radio feed to also send
> out our internet stream, but was told this could result in
> serious outages.
>
> One tech person told me that we would be pushing the
> system too much. Indeed we would be sending out a stream,
> processing the programming through ourradio automation
> system and finally we would be sending new programs and
> songs into the same computer from our remote studio.
>
> Am I asking for trouble???
>
> J Josh
> <P ID="signature">______________
If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything...</P>
 
> Try stream hosting through webair or limelight Netowrks and
> stream at 128k, or 96k.
>
> That's what I have for my radio station
>
> http://www.ynotradio.com
>

Of course, it's a porn site in disguise.
 
> I know this post has been on this board for awhile so
> hopefully you're still looking for advice.
>
> 1. You've got a couple different things going on here so
> first things first; let’s talk about the bit rate.
>
> Bit rate is important, but not the #1 thing you need to
> consider… If you don’t wish to cater to a dial up audience
> then you can give up on anything below 32kbps. A great
> (middle of the road) bit rate for broadband is 64kbps.
> 128kbps, as suggested by others in this post, is an
> excellent bit rate but could end up being pretty expensive
> in bandwidth fees so I suggest probably starting with
> 64kbps. Depending on how you encode the stream, you may be
> able to take advantage of an MBR (Multi-Bitrate) sreams in
> which you encode 2 streams into 1 (example: a 20kbps for
> dialup and a 64kbps for BB). Then when the stream is
> clicked on, the buffering time indicates what version of the
> stream the person on the other end gets. That way you can
> provide your webcast to dial up and broadband.
>
> 2. Second thing to consider so let’s talk about the source
> audio.
>
> If I understand you correctly, you’re talking your off air
> FM audio and encoding it. If that’s the case, that’s
> another one of your problems. Whether you hear it or not,
> FM audio has noise in it. Noise that you’re streaming
> encoder (the machine you’re encoding with) will try to
> encode. The codecs that run on these encoders look for
> information they can disregard without affecting the
> original audio. That’s what allows you to get good audio at
> 32kbps. Providing your encoder with FM audio adds noise and
> makes the encoder work that much harder to determine what to
> keep and what to disregard. You would be MUCH better off to
> run the audio off a DA at your facility into some type of
> audio processor and then into the encoder. I’m not sure
> what your budget is, but Orban makes a PC based audio input
> card (sound card) that includes a DSP/audio processor built
> into it. I’ve heard it on the air and it sounds wonderful
> (model # PC1100).
>
> 3. Your question about using the same machine as your
> automation computer…
>
> BAD IDEA. As someone has already mentioned, encoding takes
> a tremendous amount of system resources and would most
> likely kill both routines. You’re much safer running a
> separate machine to do the encoding.

This is all very good advice. The only thing I'd add is to try processing your signal before it is sent to the encoding computer. This will take dedicated processing equipment, not the processor you use for your on air signal. The requirements will be different for each purpose. While there are some dedicated processors out there that are intended for the purpose (DSP-X, Orban, etc.) a simple graphic equalizer and a decent compressor limiter will help a lot and not break the bank. You might even have them lying around. We did. You may find that an Aural Exciter like an Aphex, Barcus-Berry or Behringer helps a lot too.

We're using a 32 kBs stream in an effort to be user friendly with a fast dial up connection. The distribution amp from the console feeds a Behringer EX-3200 Aural Exciter, an ADC graphic equalizer and a DBX 166 compressor limiter. The order you choose for this signal chain can vary with the program material you are using, and the desired effect you are looking for. Don’t be afraid to experiment. We’ve found that boosting highs helped a lot.

I’d never call our stream “Hi-Fi,” but it sounds pretty reasonable for its low bit rate. Judge for yourself at www.kzqx.com As more and more people get high speed connections, we will probably change to 64 kBs in the future.
 
Of course the suggestions not to use one machine for everything don't consider that you might be able to use a dual processor, or hyperthreaded processor, for the task...But even so, the recommendations that you shouldn't run audioprocessing on your encoder machine are also whack. In fact, the only reason you would even need a second machine for encoding is if you also ran audio processing on it... unless you're encoding like 10 different stream formats or something (like i do).Another thing to consider is heat. If you're using 1U racks like i do, and you don't have a 55F temp environment like i do, you'll probably want to keep the cpu usage under 50% for continuous duty. Even with 55F temp, i keep our "AudEnc" (audio processor & encoder) machines under 60% cpu including an active VNC/pcAnywhere session.If you need more boxes, I would check out these guyshttp://www.supermicro.com/killer 1U rack servers, and very affordable. We have a few hundred of them, and had only 2 hardware issues (hard-drive started generating errors both times)At any rate, your air-chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, so the more things you add, the more likely the chain is to break. Using two computers, and digital soundcards (spidf/aes) is the way to rock IMHO, for any type of automated station.If you need some real audioprocessing, check out SoundSolution v2 (free)... or Omnia A/X, which Frank might hook you up with a deal on, you never know. If you need a killer preset for A/X let me know.Hopefully we'll be able to PM each other here soon. ::)
 
One more critical point is the automation system that is used in the on-alir playback. In this case, the justgreatradio.com sites uses a product from prophet systems called NexGen101. I think they recently changed the name to PSI101. In speaking with the proprietor of justgreatradio.com, this automation system is extremely reliable and contains lots of features with a low price, around $495.
 
AlPennyworth said:
... uses a product from prophet systems called NexGen101 ... this automation system is extremely reliable and contains lots of features with a low price, around $495.

Yes, it only costs $495 for the base or core module. Anything else you want to do is "ala carte", so voicetracking is extra, RDS or metadata streaming is extra. I know a few streamers who are using it and it comes in at around $1400 give or take to get the system dressed the way one would want it. PSI must have just recently changed the name, as their web site is all screwed up and not giving any useful information.

Bill
 
We have been looking at several products for our different markets and one of the products we have been tested is PSI 101, which I believe was called NexGen101 at one time. You are right, the core is $495 and each additional feature is more. One thing we liked about PSI 101 is that we only need a couple of additional modules such as voicetracing and RDS, which will run us around $700, which is sweet compared to some of the other companies we have looked at.

I think we are getting off the point of the original posting but I do agree with everyone about the audio quality and I definitely agree with the automation software. You can always improve the quality of the audio but if the playback system sucks, the quality of the audio won't mean much to listeners.
 
Hi all,

First time here...but I was doing a search and my company popped up... justgreatradio.com so thought I'd jump in and see if there is any more light I can shed on anything. Also regarding the PSi 101 it is made by Prophet Systems, and I truly think it is incredible stuff....especially for the $, although it really depends on what you want it to do as to what modules to get. Anyway, if I can be of help let me know.

John
 
You might ditch the FM tuner, and internet stream computer and apply audio from your automation server to the Instreamer www.barix.com This is reliable, and can be set to high streaming bitrates for better fidelity.
http://www.barix.com/products/instreamer_network_mp3_encoder.html
Harris also has their version of a Barix based Instreamer coming out:
http://www.broadcast.harris.com/product_portfolio/product_details.asp?sku=WWWMASTERLINK-IP
For less then $130.00 you can add exellent webstream stream audio processing:
http://www.behringer.com/DSP1424P/index.cfm?lang=ENG
Use the digital inputs and outputs of the Behringer DSP1424P from your audio server computer (the one that feeds your transmitter) to the DSP1424P then to the Instreamer to your broadband internet connection.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=98636&g=live&sku=182485
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-ULTRAMIZER-PRO-DSP1424P-Processor?sku=182485
The DSP1424P can be a little tricky to set up, search for the best settings or pick the best preset.
 
I have to second the voe for the Barix box. I'm actually helping a terrestrial station set up a few as a backup for their STL's and they are a great little system. One encoder can feed up to three or four decoders, from what I remember reading. It's greatly flexible in bitrate and also supports a socket for a memory stick in case your stream drops it will play music off the local memory stick.

Bill
 
Check out the AAC+ codec, stereo is possible at 16k.

32k sounds great.
 
Then re-distributing the sound and sending it into another computer is like making 30 copies of sound off a tape cassette to another.

It's a digital stream so this shouldn't happen.
 
Rico:

In theory, yes. In practice, the more you relay an encoded signal around, it does degrade because of lost packets and the like. Our stream sounds great coming from just our relay host. But when we used Live 365 to gain more capacity, the Live 365 relayed stream sounded worse.

Of course, your mileage may vary.
 
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