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Big Apple sour on Jack?

> Today's NY Post says WCBS doesn't know Jack. The Big Apple
> debut of the new format at WCBS FM doesn't bode well...
>
> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/50421.htm
>

Unlike "Jack's" move into DFW on a struggling station trying to find an audience, WCBS's ratings were still good. The move was totally unexpected and unwarranted. Some consultant I'm sure told Infinity that younger is better and even though WCBS was hitting its target demos, that the 18-34's would net you more cash in the long run. So without notice, they ditched the popular oldies format for "Jack". There are still a lot of outraged people in New York over the decision. I hope the ratings continue to suck for them. They had two other struggling stations there, WNEW, which is basically Hot AC like Mix 102.9 and WXRK, which is Alternative like "The Edge". And, after Stern leaves, I guarantee WXRK will continue to plummet, but for some reason they decided that WCBS, who was not struggling, would be the fall guy. A lot of New Yorkers, and long time fans of the station, including myself, are still upset about it. <P ID="signature">______________
"I Believe In The Power Of Love."
Luther Vandross 1951-2005</P>
 
> > Today's NY Post says WCBS doesn't know Jack. The Big
> Apple
> > debut of the new format at WCBS FM doesn't bode well...
> >
> > http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/50421.htm
> >
>
> Unlike "Jack's" move into DFW on a struggling station trying
> to find an audience, WCBS's ratings were still good. The
> move was totally unexpected and unwarranted. Some
> consultant I'm sure told Infinity that younger is better and
> even though WCBS was hitting its target demos, that the
> 18-34's would net you more cash in the long run. So without
> notice, they ditched the popular oldies format for "Jack".
> There are still a lot of outraged people in New York over
> the decision. I hope the ratings continue to suck for them.
> They had two other struggling stations there, WNEW, which
> is basically Hot AC like Mix 102.9 and WXRK, which is
> Alternative like "The Edge". And, after Stern leaves, I
> guarantee WXRK will continue to plummet, but for some reason
> they decided that WCBS, who was not struggling, would be the
> fall guy. A lot of New Yorkers, and long time fans of the
> station, including myself, are still upset about it.
>
And people wonder why the radio industry has all but died.
 
> Today's NY Post says WCBS doesn't know Jack. The Big Apple
> debut of the new format at WCBS FM doesn't bode well...

Notice that the article only looks at 12+ numbers, which as anyone in the biz knows, are meaningless in ad sales. If it was a comparison of P25-54 numbers, the argument would be more convincing.

Moreover, the use of the word "controversial" should be a red flag. Remember this is anything you read or hear: if the word controversial is used, it usually means that the writer of the story doesn't like it. Not always, but usually.<P ID="signature">______________
Lou Pickney
Tampa, FL
RadioHotTalk.com & VarietyHits.com</P>
 
> > Today's NY Post says WCBS doesn't know Jack. The Big
> Apple
> > debut of the new format at WCBS FM doesn't bode well...
>
> Notice that the article only looks at 12+ numbers, which as
> anyone in the biz knows, are meaningless in ad sales. If it
> was a comparison of P25-54 numbers, the argument would be
> more convincing.
>
> Moreover, the use of the word "controversial" should be a
> red flag. Remember this is anything you read or hear: if
> the word controversial is used, it usually means that the
> writer of the story doesn't like it. Not always, but
> usually.
>
Also Lou, CBS FM was a legacy station in NYC, Cousin Brucey was spinning the wax on there and they had a loyal following in NYC and the tristate, so the backlash should be expected. Brucey got the last laugh though, as he's now over at sirius and starting programming in a few weeks.
 
> Also Lou, CBS FM was a legacy station in NYC, Cousin Brucey
> was spinning the wax on there and they had a loyal following
> in NYC and the tristate, so the backlash should be expected.
> Brucey got the last laugh though, as he's now over at sirius
> and starting programming in a few weeks.

I understand the anger; if my favorite station was deep-sixed, I'd be mad about it, too (especially with a dog like WNEW in the mix). I am sympathetic to the fans of WCBS-FM; Sirius was wise to sign Cousin Brucie to try and bring the abandoned NYC oldies audience over to their service. But by the same token, I just think when it comes to comparing ratings, it's important to look at the numbers that caused the switch (P25-54). If those are down (relative to the old format), and stay down over a long period of time, it would give the old WCBS-FM format supporters a much stronger basis for saying "I told you so".<P ID="signature">______________
Lou Pickney
Tampa, FL
RadioHotTalk.com & VarietyHits.com</P>
 
> > Also Lou, CBS FM was a legacy station in NYC, Cousin
> Brucey
> > was spinning the wax on there and they had a loyal
> following
> > in NYC and the tristate, so the backlash should be
> expected.
> > Brucey got the last laugh though, as he's now over at
> sirius
> > and starting programming in a few weeks.
>
> I understand the anger; if my favorite station was
> deep-sixed, I'd be mad about it, too (especially with a dog
> like WNEW in the mix). I am sympathetic to the fans of
> WCBS-FM; Sirius was wise to sign Cousin Brucie to try and
> bring the abandoned NYC oldies audience over to their
> service. But by the same token, I just think when it comes
> to comparing ratings, it's important to look at the numbers
> that caused the switch (P25-54). If those are down
> (relative to the old format), and stay down over a long
> period of time, it would give the old WCBS-FM format
> supporters a much stronger basis for saying "I told you so".
>
But those who call the shots wouldn't listen. Corporate knows best, after all, even when listenership tanks following some big-deal decision coming down from the front office. The suits just HAVE to be heard.
 
> But those who call the shots wouldn't listen. Corporate knows best, after
> all, even when listenership tanks following some big-deal decision coming
> down from the front office. The suits just HAVE to be heard.

Since we're on the Dallas board, it's worth noting that JACK-FM's success in P25-54 (#6 in Winter 2005) in Dallas played an important part in what happened elsewhere. The station more than tripled its P25-54 numbers from its last book as Wild (Spring 2004) to its first full book as JACK (Fall 2004); granted, Wild went for a different demo, but there's no disputing that JACK-FM is bringing in the P25-54 numbers in Dallas. That played a major role in Infinity embracing the format on a national level, in my opinion.<P ID="signature">______________
Lou Pickney
Tampa, FL
RadioHotTalk.com & VarietyHits.com</P>
 
Re: To little too early for NYC's Jack

>
> I understand the anger; if my favorite station was
> deep-sixed, I'd be mad about it, too (especially with a dog
> like WNEW in the mix). I am sympathetic to the fans of
> WCBS-FM; Sirius was wise to sign Cousin Brucie to try and
> bring the abandoned NYC oldies audience over to their
> service. But by the same token, I just think when it comes
> to comparing ratings, it's important to look at the numbers
> that caused the switch (P25-54). If those are down
> (relative to the old format), and stay down over a long
> period of time, it would give the old WCBS-FM format
> supporters a much stronger basis for saying "I told you so".

The real issue is that the format was on for 3 of the 12 weeks of the book.

In the last phase, the 25-54 on the new format equaled the 25-54 in the last phase of the Winter book for the old format. That is a nice early indicator, but way to little and too soon to be taken into account for anything except speculation.
>
 
> Unlike "Jack's" move into DFW on a struggling station trying
> to find an audience, WCBS's ratings were still good. The
> move was totally unexpected and unwarranted.

Going back to 1999, the CBS-FM oldies format 25-54 is off by about half. In billing, using 2000 as reference, the market is up about 20% and WCBS-FM was off about 18%. So the revenue shortfall, indexed against the market, is nearly 40%.

> Some
> consultant I'm sure told Infinity that younger is better and
> even though WCBS was hitting its target demos, that the
> 18-34's would net you more cash in the long run.

Arbitron told them the 25-54 cell was off and continuing to fade. 25-54 is THE sales demo. 55+ is not.

> So without
> notice, they ditched the popular oldies format for "Jack".

The popularity is much exaggerated. In anything under 55, it was way off, with billing falling as an after effect.

> There are still a lot of outraged people in New York over
> the decision. I hope the ratings continue to suck for them.
> They had two other struggling stations there, WNEW, which
> is basically Hot AC like Mix 102.9 and WXRK, which is
> Alternative like "The Edge". And, after Stern leaves, I
> guarantee WXRK will continue to plummet, but for some reason
> they decided that WCBS, who was not struggling, would be the
> fall guy. A lot of New Yorkers, and long time fans of the
> station, including myself, are still upset about it.

Look at Jack in LA.., #1 25-54 English language station. Full book, and astounding results. CBS-FM looks pretty good in weeks 10-12 of the Spring book, considering it is a brand new format.
>
 
Re: To little too early for NYC's Jack

> The real issue is that the format was on for 3 of the 12
> weeks of the book.
>
> In the last phase, the 25-54 on the new format equaled the
> 25-54 in the last phase of the Winter book for the old
> format. That is a nice early indicator, but way to little
> and too soon to be taken into account for anything except
> speculation.

Thanks for the information. It is too early to tell, you're right, but that P25-54 info certainly would give that article a much more accurate feel than the 12+ numbers used in it.<P ID="signature">______________
Lou Pickney
Tampa, FL
RadioHotTalk.com & VarietyHits.com</P>
 
Does Jack have "legs"?

> Look at Jack in LA.., #1 25-54 English language station.
> Full book, and astounding results. CBS-FM looks pretty good
> in weeks 10-12 of the Spring book, considering it is a brand
> new format.


Everything David says is on the money.

The big question is: Does the Jack format and its derivatives have "legs" especially on those stations without live personalities?

Personally, I was intrigued by the new format, the longer playlist and the irreverent attitude in the beginning.

But now Jack's wise guy attitude and canned liners are wearing thin for me.

How 'bout the rest of you?

And what does this say about the theories that a smaller playlist is always the way to go?
 
Re: Does Jack have "legs"?

It is the latest thing, just like "Jammin' Oldies", "80's formats", etc., it will eventually lose its luster.

And, David, a good PD will tweak the format. Oldies in the number one market did not have to die. Especially when Infinity has much bigger problems. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

They could have made it work. <P ID="signature">______________
"I Believe In The Power Of Love."
Luther Vandross 1951-2005</P>
 
> > Today's NY Post says WCBS doesn't know Jack. The Big
> Apple
> > debut of the new format at WCBS FM doesn't bode well...
>
> Notice that the article only looks at 12+ numbers, which as
> anyone in the biz knows, are meaningless in ad sales. If it
> was a comparison of P25-54 numbers, the argument would be
> more convincing.


You're right about the 12+ numbers -- fun to look at for bragging rights, but they don't mean Jack ... sorry.



> Moreover, the use of the word "controversial" should be a
> red flag. Remember this is anything you read or hear: if
> the word controversial is used, it usually means that the
> writer of the story doesn't like it. Not always, but
> usually.


Here I disagree.

In New York, some legitimate controversy brewed over the switch -- partially because of the legendary status of CBS-FM and its personalities -- many of whom spoke freely to the press about the change.

And a small protest was staged over the change outside CBS.

The switch in LA, on the other hand, was relatively uneventful.
 
Re: Does Jack have "legs"?

> It is the latest thing, just like "Jammin' Oldies", "80's
> formats", etc., it will eventually lose its luster.

Not necessarily. Jammin Oldies was never intended to be anything but a fomrat for Hispanic females 25-44 in markets like LA.
>
> And, David, a good PD will tweak the format.

Jack will evolve, adding talent and refining the music. This is wha tit has done in canada, where it performs quite well.

> Oldies in the
> number one market did not have to die.

It pretty much has to die in every market over the next 5 to 8 years as the remaining demos all go over the 55 year old barrier. Jack is the oldies format for today's 35-54.

> Especially when
> Infinity has much bigger problems. You don't throw the baby
> out with the bath water.
>
> They could have made it work.

The problem is that 60's oldies appeals, today, appeals about 80% to folks over 55. There is no future for a 55+ format, no matter how big the ratings. There is practically no ad revenue out there to support it.
>
 
Re: Does Jack have "legs"?

> > It is the latest thing, just like "Jammin' Oldies", "80's
> > formats", etc., it will eventually lose its luster.
>
> Not necessarily. Jammin Oldies was never intended to be
> anything but a fomrat for Hispanic females 25-44 in markets
> like LA.
> >
> > And, David, a good PD will tweak the format.
>
> Jack will evolve, adding talent and refining the music. This
> is wha tit has done in canada, where it performs quite well.
>
>
> > Oldies in the
> > number one market did not have to die.
>
> It pretty much has to die in every market over the next 5 to
> 8 years as the remaining demos all go over the 55 year old
> barrier. Jack is the oldies format for today's 35-54.

It sucks that target demos and $$$ are what causes stations to die. A 61 year old may still listen to the radio and still love the old music from their time. Like I have said and other, attitudes of advertisers must change!

Also, David, you are correct on everything you say.

>
> > Especially when
> > Infinity has much bigger problems. You don't throw the
> baby
> > out with the bath water.
> >
> > They could have made it work.
>
> The problem is that 60's oldies appeals, today, appeals
> about 80% to folks over 55. There is no future for a 55+
> format, no matter how big the ratings. There is practically
> no ad revenue out there to support it.
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin</P>
 
Re: To little too early for NYC's Jack

> >
> > I understand the anger; if my favorite station was
> > deep-sixed, I'd be mad about it, too (especially with a
> dog
> > like WNEW in the mix). I am sympathetic to the fans of
> > WCBS-FM; Sirius was wise to sign Cousin Brucie to try and
> > bring the abandoned NYC oldies audience over to their
> > service. But by the same token, I just think when it
> comes
> > to comparing ratings, it's important to look at the
> numbers
> > that caused the switch (P25-54). If those are down
> > (relative to the old format), and stay down over a long
> > period of time, it would give the old WCBS-FM format
> > supporters a much stronger basis for saying "I told you
> so".
>
> The real issue is that the format was on for 3 of the 12
> weeks of the book.
>
> In the last phase, the 25-54 on the new format equaled the
> 25-54 in the last phase of the Winter book for the old
> format. That is a nice early indicator, but way to little
> and too soon to be taken into account for anything except
> speculation.
> >
>
In other words you're defending the change despite the listeners.Thank God you're a countryboy
 
Re: To little too early for NYC's Jack

> > >
> > > I understand the anger; if my favorite station was
> > > deep-sixed, I'd be mad about it, too (especially with a
> > dog
> > > like WNEW in the mix). I am sympathetic to the fans of
> > > WCBS-FM; Sirius was wise to sign Cousin Brucie to try
> and
> > > bring the abandoned NYC oldies audience over to their
> > > service. But by the same token, I just think when it
> > comes
> > > to comparing ratings, it's important to look at the
> > numbers
> > > that caused the switch (P25-54). If those are down
> > > (relative to the old format), and stay down over a long
> > > period of time, it would give the old WCBS-FM format
> > > supporters a much stronger basis for saying "I told you
> > so".
> >
> > The real issue is that the format was on for 3 of the 12
> > weeks of the book.
> >
> > In the last phase, the 25-54 on the new format equaled the
>
> > 25-54 in the last phase of the Winter book for the old
> > format. That is a nice early indicator, but way to little
> > and too soon to be taken into account for anything except
> > speculation.
> > >
> >
> In other words you're defending the change despite the
> listeners.Thank God you're a countryboy


Not trying to speak for him, but radio is first, and foremost, a business.

It is and was a business decision -- in Dallas, NYC and LA.
 
Re: To little too early for NYC's Jack

> >
> > The real issue is that the format was on for 3 of the 12
> > weeks of the book.
> >
> > In the last phase, the 25-54 on the new format equaled the
>
> > 25-54 in the last phase of the Winter book for the old
> > format. That is a nice early indicator, but way to little
> > and too soon to be taken into account for anything except
> > speculation.
> > >
> >
> In other words you're defending the change despite the
> listeners.Thank God you're a countryboy

It was a very bright change. The station was off se verely in billing and 25-54 numbers. The listeners they were getting were mostly in non-salable demos.

Rather than ride the plane down in flames, they ejected in time to do a more modern version of oldies.
>
 
Re: Does Jack have "legs"?

>
> It sucks that target demos and $$$ are what causes stations
> to die. A 61 year old may still listen to the radio and
> still love the old music from their time. Like I have said
> and other, attitudes of advertisers must change!
>

I am glad you brought this point up. In big cities like NY, most business is what is called "transactional" which means buys based on ure numbers delivery vs. ad cost. Agency business is placed based on this consideration and the demos are specificed by the client's marketing department... something a station can not influence as it may involve product design, packaging, etc.

Radio is dependent on providing an audience that is of value to the advertiser. If there is no value, then the format changes.
 
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