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Biggest CES Flops of All Time
- Thread starter rtc
- Start date
Look on the bright side - they cite hardware improvements and lower costs as a reason it still might work, which is more kudos than they give to anyone else.
I'm not so sure the list of failures is really something to laugh at. Laserdiscs were mildly popular with videophiles during their tenure and acclimated people to the idea of video on a disc that helped DVDs take off. Minidiscs replaced cassettes in Japan and found a cult following with musicians and concert enthusiasts that has only recently been eclipsed by SSD technology. OLED and the Sony mylo were both just too far ahead of their time (if not just months in the case of the mylo). Apple's Pippin was certainly ahead of the curve as an early networked video game console. They all are, now, it just took technology catching up to make the idea actually useful. CD-i — again, big in a specialized market, namely karaoke.
HD is definitely a flop, though, that is undeniable. A flop with potential is still a flop.
I'm not so sure the list of failures is really something to laugh at. Laserdiscs were mildly popular with videophiles during their tenure and acclimated people to the idea of video on a disc that helped DVDs take off. Minidiscs replaced cassettes in Japan and found a cult following with musicians and concert enthusiasts that has only recently been eclipsed by SSD technology. OLED and the Sony mylo were both just too far ahead of their time (if not just months in the case of the mylo). Apple's Pippin was certainly ahead of the curve as an early networked video game console. They all are, now, it just took technology catching up to make the idea actually useful. CD-i — again, big in a specialized market, namely karaoke.
HD is definitely a flop, though, that is undeniable. A flop with potential is still a flop.
You've got something there, KB. Hey iBiquity: here's your ticket to the future:
How about an internet refrigerator that offers a LaserDisc deck, a Pippin console plus HD Radio??
"Grab yourself a cold one while you watch Xanadu....or whip up a quick-seven course meal while waiting for your HD receiver-fridge to lock!"
Auto-defrosting hiss: what a concept! ;D
How about an internet refrigerator that offers a LaserDisc deck, a Pippin console plus HD Radio??
"Grab yourself a cold one while you watch Xanadu....or whip up a quick-seven course meal while waiting for your HD receiver-fridge to lock!"
Auto-defrosting hiss: what a concept! ;D
KB1OKL said:HD! Right up there with internet connected refrigerators.
Laugh if you want, but where's all the important info in your home? Usually stuck to the refrigerator with a magnet...however, that particular internet fridge design put the screen at chest level, which ain't exactly usable...
Ultimately, though, you'll get your own magnetic mount for your iPad and stick it to the fridge...
hubcity said:KB1OKL said:HD! Right up there with internet connected refrigerators.
Laugh if you want, but where's all the important info in your home? Usually stuck to the refrigerator with a magnet...however, that particular internet fridge design put the screen at chest level, which ain't exactly usable...
Ultimately, though, you'll get your own magnetic mount for your iPad and stick it to the fridge...
Y'know, that's actually a brilliant idea, that iPad fridge mount.
A friend of mine just got a new fridge with a stainless steel exterior. She loves it, but none of her hundreds of magnets stick to it. It will, sadly, remain forever free of clutter. Maybe I should offer to nail an iPad to it.
The really important info is still on the kitchen table. Frig is short-term reference lookup library.
Well I guess I'd just put screws for clips right into the front of such an obstinate refrigerator.
Makes me wonder what happened to all the old wood magnets that people used to use for this on ice-boxes. :
Well I guess I'd just put screws for clips right into the front of such an obstinate refrigerator.
Makes me wonder what happened to all the old wood magnets that people used to use for this on ice-boxes. :
Calling something a "flop" is pretty subjective, and I wouldn't put much stock in what some uncredited staff writer has to say anyway.
LaserDisc may have "flopped" in the consumer market, but it enjoyed widespread success in a variety of professional applications. They powered the TV wall at virtually every retailer until DVD came along. They were the music video delivery platform of choice for retail and nightclub use for many years. They powered early karaoke machines. They were used in education.
Sales of MiniDiscs with pre-recorded music might not have gone anywhere, but they did find widespread acceptance in radio stations as archiving devices, and a way to record audio in the field. Every station I've worked at in the last 15 years has had at least a few of these decks around.
There is data being transmitted by HD Radio right now for GPS, traffic and other applications that the author clearly has no clue about. Are these flops too?
HD Radio, being an AM/FM radio at its core, was never going to set the world on fire as a stand-alone device any more than any other component receiver, table radio or portable radio. I wouldn't expect anyone to go out and buy the Insignia portable these days any more than I would expect them to go out in search of an AM/FM Walkman. Ditto for the Sangean and Sony component tuners. The thing that will make HD Radio ultimately successful with consumers is integration with things they were already buying, like their new Toyota.
Assuming radio steps up with decent programming on the HD2 channels, as this integration occurs, people will discover the HD sub-channels the same way they discover any other radio station and consumer demand will grow.
If radio fails to step up though and doesn't provide compelling content, HD will simply provide more fuel for the "radio sucks" crowd.
With automakers like Toyota coming on board, HD Radio is well on its way to just becoming another part of "radio" in the minds of consumers.
LaserDisc may have "flopped" in the consumer market, but it enjoyed widespread success in a variety of professional applications. They powered the TV wall at virtually every retailer until DVD came along. They were the music video delivery platform of choice for retail and nightclub use for many years. They powered early karaoke machines. They were used in education.
Sales of MiniDiscs with pre-recorded music might not have gone anywhere, but they did find widespread acceptance in radio stations as archiving devices, and a way to record audio in the field. Every station I've worked at in the last 15 years has had at least a few of these decks around.
There is data being transmitted by HD Radio right now for GPS, traffic and other applications that the author clearly has no clue about. Are these flops too?
HD Radio, being an AM/FM radio at its core, was never going to set the world on fire as a stand-alone device any more than any other component receiver, table radio or portable radio. I wouldn't expect anyone to go out and buy the Insignia portable these days any more than I would expect them to go out in search of an AM/FM Walkman. Ditto for the Sangean and Sony component tuners. The thing that will make HD Radio ultimately successful with consumers is integration with things they were already buying, like their new Toyota.
Assuming radio steps up with decent programming on the HD2 channels, as this integration occurs, people will discover the HD sub-channels the same way they discover any other radio station and consumer demand will grow.
If radio fails to step up though and doesn't provide compelling content, HD will simply provide more fuel for the "radio sucks" crowd.
With automakers like Toyota coming on board, HD Radio is well on its way to just becoming another part of "radio" in the minds of consumers.
You IBOC boosters talk as if "Toyota coming on board" is nothing short of the second coming! The reality is that the Toyota Entune system will be a higher-end option that will also offer a plethora of streaming options from the likes of iheartradio, Pandora and XM among other applications (MP3s, CD, etc.). HD radio is a relative afterthought that will easily be lost in the shuffle on such a system.
Toyota itself doesn't even bother to mention that the thing will be enabled with HD radio! What does that tell you? So much for "proof" that the naysayers are wrong. ;D ;D ;D
Remember, just because someone buys it doesn't mean that you automatically have an HD radio listener. This isn't like the Insignia portable. I'd venture to say that the vast majority who would purchase such an option on their new car would be far more interested in the internet options than in the radio itself, let alone the HD portion of it. It will be interesting to take a survey in, say 4 years, of Entune owners to see how many even know that they have an HD radio tuner and, if so, whether they even understand what that is.
$1000 says you wouldn't like the results, radigooroo.
Toyota itself doesn't even bother to mention that the thing will be enabled with HD radio! What does that tell you? So much for "proof" that the naysayers are wrong. ;D
;D ;DRemember, just because someone buys it doesn't mean that you automatically have an HD radio listener. This isn't like the Insignia portable. I'd venture to say that the vast majority who would purchase such an option on their new car would be far more interested in the internet options than in the radio itself, let alone the HD portion of it. It will be interesting to take a survey in, say 4 years, of Entune owners to see how many even know that they have an HD radio tuner and, if so, whether they even understand what that is.
$1000 says you wouldn't like the results, radigooroo.
Keep in mind that Pandora/Iheartradio/etc. do not stream for free. Someone has to pay for the bandwidth for the end-user and it won't be Pandora. Plus, last I heard Pandora free in vehicles is limited to 40 hours per month.
Many people will pay for the bandwidth costs, but not everyone. If you don't, what is left? HD radio.
Many people will pay for the bandwidth costs, but not everyone. If you don't, what is left? HD radio.
Furthermore, when you leave 3G coverage in your car, you can take your iheartradio feed off the HD2 stream of your local Clear Channel station.
And you WILL leave 3G coverage. I've found plenty of 1XRTT coverage with my new provider, and of course previously I had T-Mobile who won't have 3G for hundreds of miles around here for years because of Eglin AFB.
So yeah, HD radio comes in handy here. It's the only way to hear ESPN radio at all, or the local talk station after dark.
*edit to add*
OMG did you guys even watch the demo video on there? The whole system depends on the driver having a smart phone with Bluetooth access. All the info is gathered through the phone for display on the head unit. What a gyp! You mean the car doesn't even have its own wifi hotspot or 3G chip? What happens to buyers who don't have a smartphone, or whose carrier blocks Bluetooth access for anything but headsets? (Some still do apparently.)
I am sorry, but I see trying to stream Pandora over a smart phone that's inside a Faraday cage working about as well as trying to pick HD radio, er, anywhere. I think my record without a streaming hiccup has been about 10 minutes, and that was driving the well traveled highway through down during midday. Anytime else the network is too congested.
And you WILL leave 3G coverage. I've found plenty of 1XRTT coverage with my new provider, and of course previously I had T-Mobile who won't have 3G for hundreds of miles around here for years because of Eglin AFB.
So yeah, HD radio comes in handy here. It's the only way to hear ESPN radio at all, or the local talk station after dark.
*edit to add*
OMG did you guys even watch the demo video on there? The whole system depends on the driver having a smart phone with Bluetooth access. All the info is gathered through the phone for display on the head unit. What a gyp! You mean the car doesn't even have its own wifi hotspot or 3G chip? What happens to buyers who don't have a smartphone, or whose carrier blocks Bluetooth access for anything but headsets? (Some still do apparently.)
I am sorry, but I see trying to stream Pandora over a smart phone that's inside a Faraday cage working about as well as trying to pick HD radio, er, anywhere. I think my record without a streaming hiccup has been about 10 minutes, and that was driving the well traveled highway through down during midday. Anytime else the network is too congested.
Zach, I don't know where you live, but in my area (Lake County, IL) I have NEVER had a problem with 3G coverage. I use my iPhone 4 combined with a two-ended headphone cord to connect the smartphone to an Aux port in my car stereo. By doing this, I can stream to my hearts content around here. Now sure, I'd probably lose 3G if I went from here to Dubuque. But most people live in and drive around metropolitan areas where 3G is available. I might add that the same areas that lack 3G probably offer lousy HD radio reception too.
Lastly, I saw the comment about taking the iheartradio feed from the HD2 stream of your local CC station. Yes you can do that. But with the smartphone you can listen to ANY Clear Channel station while with HD you only get what is offered in your local area. Which you lose when you get out of range.
Real world example: driving north on I-94 from the Chicago area to Milwaukee. You lose most HD radio signals from Chicago before the WI border (they cut in and out before there); the Milwaukee ones aren't dependable until Racine. For the 20 or so miles in between, HD is unlistenable. Meanwhile, solid 3G coverage is offered the entire way. I never dropped the stream I was listening to from.....London (something HD radio will never offer).
So your pessimistic portrayal of streaming versus the wonders of HD radio don't really add up.
Lastly, I saw the comment about taking the iheartradio feed from the HD2 stream of your local CC station. Yes you can do that. But with the smartphone you can listen to ANY Clear Channel station while with HD you only get what is offered in your local area. Which you lose when you get out of range.
Real world example: driving north on I-94 from the Chicago area to Milwaukee. You lose most HD radio signals from Chicago before the WI border (they cut in and out before there); the Milwaukee ones aren't dependable until Racine. For the 20 or so miles in between, HD is unlistenable. Meanwhile, solid 3G coverage is offered the entire way. I never dropped the stream I was listening to from.....London (something HD radio will never offer).
So your pessimistic portrayal of streaming versus the wonders of HD radio don't really add up.
BRNout said:
I know it is possible to get HD radio in many places around here where you can only get 3G from Verizon/USCC. If you have another carrier, you are out of luck. However, if you travel another 20 miles you will lose HD radio as well.
As I said, let's not forget that data is not free. Even if you live in an area with 3g/4g you still have to pay for bandwidth. Many people have a 5GB Cap or less. If you don't have a cap, you will. Pandora/Slacker/Last.fm/etc. all eat your cap rather quickly. If you do much on your phone and listen to internet radio, you will feel the pinch. Last I checked At&t lowered their cap to 2GB for new subscribers... good luck listening to much internet radio with your Iphone with that.
Casey said:
1. The range of HD versus 3G/4G is going to vary. But, overall, 3G/4G is available in more areas than HD radio is. Look at the map. I drove for 2 days across the Great Plains, had in and out 3G but encountered almost no HD radio stations. Only the occasional NPR affiliate here and there had them. Small to medium markets have very few HD signals on line. Most have someone offering 3G though.
2. Yes, many providers have caps but those vary by plan. In my case, I have AT&T and have yet to hit my cap. So it's not quite as bad as you imply. I'll admit that I probably would hit the cap if I streamed every time I was in the car, then again I would have signed with T-Mobile instead were that the case.
3. Do you honestly think that these caps are permanent? To me they represent growth pains that are inevitable when you have a burgeoning technology. But the demand is incredible and eventually (sooner than you think) supply will catch up. That, in turn, will drive data prices down and very rapidly.
By the way, tell kids in high school and college how Pandora is too expensive to listen to on their smart phones. That doesn't seem to stop them from doing so - everywhere. Go to one of their hangouts and see for yourself. Talk to them about what they listen to (in a non creepy way). I have yet to see one with an Insignia NS-HD01 or 02 though.
Given all of the above, I am very optimistic in stating that streamed platforms are where audio entertainment is ultimately headed. Old fashioned analog radio is robust, works well, sounds great and is cheap. HD/digital radio slots in with the disadvantages of satellite and 3G/4G without almost none of the content offered by those platforms. It's in no man's land which is probably why there is NO demand for it.
BRNout said:
That's true. I live in a medium sized market (Mobile-Pensacola) and have just 9 HD stations. But most of Pensacola, at least on my carrier, has no 3G as I found out today while at the mall for lunch. And because of the market layout, the HD signals were too weak to decode consistently on my Insignia portable unless I was sitting still.
You're right about the midwest, though, I didn't find much out there in the boonies either. OKC, Albuquerque, Las Vegas and Little Rock had a lot, but no one else did.
BRNout said:
I have to admit, you gotta do a LOT of streaming to hit 5 GB. It's video that eats that up quickly, not radio. I guess the upside to my carrier's crappy 3G is there is no cap… yet. But one of the things that steered me to Cellular South was low prices on the smartphone plan and no caps. Too bad I couldn't do a speed test on them first and see their awful results (speedtest.net reports .6 Mbps down and .1 Mbps up on EV-DO rev 0.)
BRNout said:
The way the talk is in tech circles (Wired, Ars Technica, Engadget and the like) caps are going to become more common as carriers feel the squeeze in tight markets. It's really not fair as it appears many of the major players are just sitting on tons of open bandwidth (700 MHz and the like) and not building anything out, yet crying about how congested their data networks are becoming. It's just an excuse for them to jack up rates and nickle & dime their customers to death.
BRNout said:
I've asked a few teenage and college age relatives of mine and none had smart phones and most were restricted with no internet, just text messages. Guess I come from a family of cheapskates!
Most of the time I see younger adults with smart phones, they're at coffee houses and bookstores and appear to be using free wi-fi. I'm a nosy sumabitch.
BRNout said:
Well, that's true, but I don't think the outlook for streaming is as rosy as the technorati claim. Mainly because only a select portion of Americans can actually afford these smart phones. The world is not moving to IP-radio content, it's simply too inefficient to support 300 million tune-ins a day.
What's happening instead is the rich hipsters will buy their iPhones and Androids and pay for unlimited Pandora or just sync their collections from iTunes (yuuuuck). The rest will be stuck with an ancient, outdated, inferior commercial-fed product that has, to be fair, worked for 50 years and is robust and free.
To me, the solution is neither HD nor streaming. It's ignoring radio altogether since it can't possibly meet my needs. I took a family member to the bank this afternoon, a trip of just 4 miles each way. While waiting on her, I fired up the Tune In Radio app and found a classic rock station, which almost immediately segued out of a song and into a commercial. Our 4 mile trip back home was full of commercials, or at least I think it was, since it kept dropping out despite having 3-5 bars signal on the phone. At least when it DID work (once connected to my home wifi) the 32 kbps AAC sounded OK.
Commercials? Low bit rate audio? Dropouts? I can get that by tuning in the local classic rock station in HD, lol.
I will admit, I have not seen an HD radio in action for a while. I do not currently have one because the stations I listen to are not in HD and don't appear to be planning on it anytime soon. The radios I have seen could get HD in many places without 3G, but 3G has gotten better. There is less of a difference than there once was.
Probably most people will not hit a 5GB cap with internet radio listening to Pandora, but it will vary. Many people also watch youtube and use a bunch of apps that use data. At&t's 2GB plan could cause problems for a lot of people.
The bit-rate streamed is what is going to cause a person to hit a cap or not. I forget if Pandora streams at 40 or 48kbits on a mobile phone, but that will not eat a cap as fast as streaming a 1.fm stream at 128kbits. Internet radio stations need to offer more high-quality, low-bitrate options. AAC+ and OGG would be an excellent way to achieve this. However I know of an instance where Google accidentally broke AAC+v2 with update 2.2 and it caused a lot of problems for companies like Slacker. They had to re-encode their entire library.
I think we are in a slow transition to move to solid billing by the byte on both mobile and home internet connections. This is what Canada is moving toward if you have been following the progression. They have LOW caps on nearly every internet connection and bill for overages. Our companies are slowly moving toward that idea and I think eventually will be bill-by-byte. Despite the fact that data is limited only by the size of the pipe. Internet providers, like most companies, always want a higher profit. The best way to get that is to charge more and build less. Verizon and At&T have plenty of spectrum, they simply fail to use it. Clearwire uses it, they just fail in general and are on the verge of collapse. If companies bill by the byte, internet radio will all of a sudden become very expensive.
To be quite honest, I have never seen anyone (that I don't know) using a smartphone for internet radio of any sort, nor have I seen anyone (ever) with an HD radio portable. A person is almost always listening to an Ipod or on a rare occasion, a portable analog radio. In this area, broadcast AM/FM has deep penetration so if people listen to any radio on a portable, it is analog AM/FM. We have very few HD radio stations and the number is slowly decreasing. Cumulus and Clear Channel simply never bothered with HD and they own nearly every commercial station in the market. Clear Channel does operate the service on an AM station, but they never turned it on for their FM's.
Probably most people will not hit a 5GB cap with internet radio listening to Pandora, but it will vary. Many people also watch youtube and use a bunch of apps that use data. At&t's 2GB plan could cause problems for a lot of people.
The bit-rate streamed is what is going to cause a person to hit a cap or not. I forget if Pandora streams at 40 or 48kbits on a mobile phone, but that will not eat a cap as fast as streaming a 1.fm stream at 128kbits. Internet radio stations need to offer more high-quality, low-bitrate options. AAC+ and OGG would be an excellent way to achieve this. However I know of an instance where Google accidentally broke AAC+v2 with update 2.2 and it caused a lot of problems for companies like Slacker. They had to re-encode their entire library.
I think we are in a slow transition to move to solid billing by the byte on both mobile and home internet connections. This is what Canada is moving toward if you have been following the progression. They have LOW caps on nearly every internet connection and bill for overages. Our companies are slowly moving toward that idea and I think eventually will be bill-by-byte. Despite the fact that data is limited only by the size of the pipe. Internet providers, like most companies, always want a higher profit. The best way to get that is to charge more and build less. Verizon and At&T have plenty of spectrum, they simply fail to use it. Clearwire uses it, they just fail in general and are on the verge of collapse. If companies bill by the byte, internet radio will all of a sudden become very expensive.
To be quite honest, I have never seen anyone (that I don't know) using a smartphone for internet radio of any sort, nor have I seen anyone (ever) with an HD radio portable. A person is almost always listening to an Ipod or on a rare occasion, a portable analog radio. In this area, broadcast AM/FM has deep penetration so if people listen to any radio on a portable, it is analog AM/FM. We have very few HD radio stations and the number is slowly decreasing. Cumulus and Clear Channel simply never bothered with HD and they own nearly every commercial station in the market. Clear Channel does operate the service on an AM station, but they never turned it on for their FM's.
BRNout said:
Uh huh. So people won't use the AM/FM tuner in this thing at all? Puhleez.
And what makes you think it will be a higher end option? Ford offers the Sync system in the Fiesta, the Escape SUV (low end of their SUV line) and their E-Series vans. If you can get Sync in a cargo van, what makes you think Toyota plans this only as a high end option? If that were the case, wouldn't it be the Lexus Entune system?
BRNout said:Toyota itself doesn't even bother to mention that the thing will be enabled with HD radio! What does that tell you? So much for "proof" that the naysayers are wrong. ;D
It tells me that Toyota gets what you don't. HD Radio is radio. There's no need to explain anything. People will find the new HD Radio features (new stations) when tuning around on their new car's radio. Toyota also doesn't mention that the real time traffic data in this thing is delivered via HD Radio, but I'd be willing to bet it is.
BRNout said:
No, that's pretty much exactly what this means. If someone buys a car equipped with this solely for mobile Pandora, or iHeartRadio which they can already get on their iPhone, Android or whatever without this vehicle integrated control panel for it, I'd be shocked.
I'd also be shocked if they bought it solely for the HD Radio.
But they will get new stations as a side effect of their vehicle purchase.
Latest HD news from the CES,including a new Insignia portable:
http://www.radioink.com/Article.asp?id=2072601&spid=24698
http://www.radioink.com/Article.asp?id=2072601&spid=24698
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