Biggest radio failures in NY

[FellOutBoy]

I agree on the Pulse analysis. You can say anything you want...it was a failure. Where I disagree is if the format had any sort of "legs" it would have been picked up on a station above 92.1 MHz by now.

Only because of the anomalies that it was a failure, not because of the music.

I STILL stand strong on the fact that if the station was above 92.1, it would have been in the top 5. But then again, radio only sees things in a "straight path" and not with the peripheral visions.

TOP FIVE?!!!

Tony im sorry while i used to admire your passion, the truth is that its not passion as much as your being a bit out of touch. The answer is not always "DANCE" it has become so predictable that you suggest that "dance" is the solution to every programming hole or perceived problem. it carries over into your excuse that the signal was the issue and not the music itself. That is simply wrong, the signal did not help but the reality is that if you put "dance" on a signal like 103.5, even in NYC youre going to get no numbers of any measure. EDM does not work on the radio outside of a late night specialty show AT BEST, the audience is just not there it is not mass appeal, the number of people who actually go to clubs and think about that music outside of the club is a small but vocal minority, there would be NO TSL as no one is going to sit in a car on a congested street or highway and listen to beats outside of a club, that is why Pulse failed outside of the bounced checks that the owners paid the talent with, and the signal limitations, there is just no real measurable audience for it on the radio. Sure you could possibly get 20,000 people to what used to be considered a "Rave" in some parts of the country if you booked the right acts but that does not translate into a radio format. Even with the recent explosion of club culture that still does not translate into a radio format ven with certain acts like Deadmau5 and Skrillex (god forbid) managing to break out of the "dance' category and crossover to some degree, building a format around unknown dj's who are only known to those who are up on the insular world of club culture?. seriously

 

[davideduardo]

What was Jack's billing though?

CBS-FM had a huge billing decline between the year before going to Jack and the prior year. They switched, and, of course, lost billing. It was growing when the recession hit.

And then, of course, CBS realized from the PPM experience in Philly (where PPM started, in test form, 6 years before) that classic hits (not "oldies") was going to be big in the new ratings world and they made another format change.

Of course, hindsight says that they should have just morphed from oldies to classic hits, but they did not yet know how powerful classic hits would be in the PPM in many markets.

One of the former GM's of Mike-FM in Boston said that it was almost impossible to sell because it was nobody's first choice radio station... It was the station that people tuned to when all the others were in a break.

The inability to monetize the format may explain why that person has "former" in his title.

Of course, the comments are not true at all. The format has its mix of P1's and lower usage levels, and actually does rather well in TSL. The average PPM panelist uses 6 stations in a 7 day period, and as many as 8 to 9 in a 15-day period... meaning that about 80% of a station's cume is not "first choice" listening.

And advertisers look at impressions. In fact, a couple of years ago, a joint work group composed of radio and agency experts rejected the creation of an "engagement" metric to measure "favoriteness" of stations.

I define the success of a station based a little on the ratings and a lot on the billing.

And that's why CBS-FM dumped oldies... the billing was crashing.

 

[davideduardo]

EDM does not work on the radio outside of a late night specialty show AT BEST, the audience is just not there it is not mass appeal, the number of people who actually go to clubs and think about that music outside of the club is a small but vocal minority, there would be NO TSL as no one is going to sit in a car on a congested street or highway and listen to beats outside of a club, that is why Pulse failed outside of the bounced checks that the owners paid the talent with, and the signal limitations, there is just no real measurable audience for it on the radio.ho are up on the insular world of

Pulse did quite well, considering that the signal is only a little better than a glorified Class A... 3 kw at about 700 feet. It got a cume around a million, despite not covering 2/3 of the market.

When 'KTU went on in the 70's, I heard the same comments about "who would listen in a car... it's only for clubs..." We know how that turned out.

And in Europe... even in Mexico City... there are EDM stations in the top 5, and they get terrific morning and midday numbers.

Whether the format could sustain a major ESB signal can be .. and is... debated here a lot, the format is definitely viable in some places and is not in any way part of the awful stereotype of a bunch of club freaks doin' blow in a toilet stall. In much of the world, it's a respected, mainstream format.

 

[WNTIRadio]

The inability to monetize the format may explain why that person has "former" in his title.

Of course, the comments are not true at all. The format has its mix of P1's and lower usage levels, and actually does rather well in TSL. The average PPM panelist uses 6 stations in a 7 day period, and as many as 8 to 9 in a 15-day period... meaning that about 80% of a station's cume is not "first choice" listening.

And advertisers look at impressions. In fact, a couple of years ago, a joint work group composed of radio and agency experts rejected the creation of an "engagement" metric to measure "favoriteness" of stations

No, he got a better offer from a network. The format was a dog, sales wise. That's why it's now WEEI-FM and doing sports talk. He also said that without jocks, there was a lot less to sell... no weather sponsorships, live reads, live tags etc.

But why would anyone who was at the helm of such a station know what he's talking about?

 

[WNTIRadio]

TOP FIVE?!!!

Tony im sorry while i used to admire your passion, the truth is that its not passion as much as your being a bit out of touch. The answer is not always "DANCE" it has become so predictable that you suggest that "dance" is the solution to every programming hole or perceived problem. it carries over into your excuse that the signal was the issue and not the music itself. That is simply wrong, the signal did not help but the reality is that if you put "dance" on a signal like 103.5, even in NYC youre going to get no numbers of any measure. EDM does not work on the radio outside of a late night specialty show AT BEST, the audience is just not there it is not mass appeal, the number of people who actually go to clubs and think about that music outside of the club is a small but vocal minority, there would be NO TSL as no one is going to sit in a car on a congested street or highway and listen to beats outside of a club, that is why Pulse failed outside of the bounced checks that the owners paid the talent with, and the signal limitations, there is just no real measurable audience for it on the radio. Sure you could possibly get 20,000 people to what used to be considered a "Rave" in some parts of the country if you booked the right acts but that does not translate into a radio format. Even with the recent explosion of club culture that still does not translate into a radio format ven with certain acts like Deadmau5 and Skrillex (god forbid) managing to break out of the "dance' category and crossover to some degree, building a format around unknown dj's who are only known to those who are up on the insular world of club culture?. seriously

While we may not see eye to eye on WRXP... I'm with you 100% on this. It's like someone who loves some odd food and thinks that everyone should be eating it, even though it's an acquired taste that has a small but loyal following.

A specialty show on Saturday night is a good place for this music. The old K-Rock used to do "Solid State with Liquid Todd" Saturday nights. But getting up to go to work at 6am or sitting in bridge traffic? Yeah, get out the in-car fog machine and strobes...

 

[TonySantiago]

TOP FIVE?!!!

Tony im sorry while i used to admire your passion, the truth is that its not passion as much as your being a bit out of touch. The answer is not always "DANCE" it has become so predictable that you suggest that "dance" is the solution to every programming hole or perceived problem. it carries over into your excuse that the signal was the issue and not the music itself. That is simply wrong, the signal did not help but the reality is that if you put "dance" on a signal like 103.5, even in NYC youre going to get no numbers of any measure. EDM does not work on the radio outside of a late night specialty show AT BEST, the audience is just not there it is not mass appeal, the number of people who actually go to clubs and think about that music outside of the club is a small but vocal minority, there would be NO TSL as no one is going to sit in a car on a congested street or highway and listen to beats outside of a club, that is why Pulse failed outside of the bounced checks that the owners paid the talent with, and the signal limitations, there is just no real measurable audience for it on the radio. Sure you could possibly get 20,000 people to what used to be considered a "Rave" in some parts of the country if you booked the right acts but that does not translate into a radio format. Even with the recent explosion of club culture that still does not translate into a radio format ven with certain acts like Deadmau5 and Skrillex (god forbid) managing to break out of the "dance' category and crossover to some degree, building a format around unknown dj's who are only known to those who are up on the insular world of club culture?. seriously

Before I answer this....David Eduardo....THANK YOU!

NOW.....me out of touch? We're going to go there??? Somehow, I think I know who this is since there was a FB discussion with this individual on another radio board.......

I don't care if you admire my passion or not, God knows I've been "beaten up" too many times on these and other boards with my thoughts and know that there are many people that either HATE or are just PLAIN ignorant when it comes to dance/EDM. For those that don't know, I'm here to help, but for those that are gonna bash on this...hell, I'm "fighting!" and won't back down on anyone regarding dance music.

I've said what I said on Pulse 87 and admitted that the dial location, weak antenna and management issues were the reason why the station failed. The "ship" was already sinking BEFORE Pulse launched. If anything Pulse served as a "pail" that "bailed out the water", in effect buying time until the "boat" completely sank. If I was "out of touch" as you claim I am, then why would I admit to ANYTHING negative on a dance station? I am keeping this VERY real.

REALITY? Okay. Close to a million people, between February 2008 and October 2009, went out of the radio "comfort zone" to a strange dial location that wasn't in some car stereos, that they would end up LOSING the signal at parts of Staten Island and Central New Jersey to hear dance music that NO OTHER STATION, not even 'KT-WHO?" (as "British Betty" said on one of the wet sweepers) would play!

If the station was above 92 on an ESB signal, NO QUESTION IT WOULD BE IN THE TOP 5! I'm not saying number 1 (see..there's reality again because I KNOW that stations like Lite-FM and CBS-FM would bill above it). But it would not be this economic disaster as you make it out to be! Pulse would have still been around on FM if that was the case.

Now the "stereotypical" belief about the music working ONLY in clubs is the type of ignorance that I constantly hear from those that HATE dance music, for whatever reason. You don't have to be into Deadmau5, and personally I think Skrillex would work out better on an, dare I say, ALTERNATIVE station like WRXP but stop hating. Please. You don't have to understand the music or even care about it. But God help me if I'm going to allow an ignorant statement like that to permeate onto this board and be mistaken as "fact".

When WRXP came back for those that loved the alternative rock sound, I was happy for them. When CBS-FM bailed out of that "Jack" experiment to go oldies again, I was happy for them. If a country station comes back to the FM dial in NYC, I would be very happy for those fans...it's been a LOOOONG time for them.

Another thing I can admit. A "pure dance" format may not work here. BUT if you add in some of the CHR elements that you hear on 92.3 Now (Rihanna, Chris Brown, Pitbull, Flo Rida) along with dance branded artists (Jes, Nadia Ali, Bingo Players, Avicii, Crystal Waters - who still does music today....if you don't know the other two, do a Wikipedia search) then you have something. Oh, wait a minute..PULSE 87 DID THAT! I heard Mary J. Blige, Sean Kingston played on Pulse along with what was hot in dance then.

Like I said, I could care less whether you personally like my passion or not "FellOutBoy". If you want to wish my death, fine. But I will STAY STRONG on my statement that if a dance/EDM station launched in New York...it would be in the TOP 5!

My apologies to everyone else for seeing me rant like this. But I'm certainly not going to "bow down" to anyone who comes off condescending on dance. I would not do that to anyone else.

Seriously.

(P.S.: As I've posted this I've also noticed WNTI's comments about "Yeah, get out the in-car fog machine and strobes...". Seriously, STOP!)

 

[FellOutBoy]

EDM does not work on the radio outside of a late night specialty show AT BEST, the audience is just not there it is not mass appeal, the number of people who actually go to clubs and think about that music outside of the club is a small but vocal minority, there would be NO TSL as no one is going to sit in a car on a congested street or highway and listen to beats outside of a club, that is why Pulse failed outside of the bounced checks that the owners paid the talent with, and the signal limitations, there is just no real measurable audience for it on the radio.ho are up on the insular world of

Pulse did quite well, considering that the signal is only a little better than a glorified Class A... 3 kw at about 700 feet. It got a cume around a million, despite not covering 2/3 of the market.

When 'KTU went on in the 70's, I heard the same comments about "who would listen in a car... it's only for clubs..." We know how that turned out.

And in Europe... even in Mexico City... there are EDM stations in the top 5, and they get terrific morning and midday numbers.

Whether the format could sustain a major ESB signal can be .. and is... debated here a lot, the format is definitely viable in some places and is not in any way part of the awful stereotype of a bunch of club freaks doin' blow in a toilet stall. In much of the world, it's a respected, mainstream format.

David Mexico City and Europe are not applicable comparisons because European culture differs completely from America musically. EDM songs will chart and get airplay on the top 40's there right next to more traditional artists such as Rhianna or Pink etc, it's a different vibe altogether. On occasion a 30 year old song will be re released and it will go into the charts like Otis Reading "dock of the bay" did a couple of years ago, not a viable comparison to anywhere in America. I know people said that about KTU but the difference being that "disco" at the end of the day still contained hits that were also crossing over to CHR, then top 40, and there were actual songs being played with traditional verse chorus verse structure, as opposed to "EDM" so it was not simply just the dance people who could relate to it. that's all im saying.

As for Tony I like EDM myself in limited doses andi also like Death Metal but im smart enough to know that there is not enough of a diversity, or enough of an audience to sustain it as a format. And Tony yes you are a bit out of touch because for how many years now youve been on this board and it is not an exaggeration to say that you will post as an answer to virtually all questions "they should go dance". C'mon man, agenda noted. Move on already 8)

 

[TonySantiago]

David I know people said that about KTU but the difference being that "disco" at the end of the day still contained hits that were also crossing over to CHR, then top 40, it was not simply just the dance people who could relate to it. that's all im saying.

Wow...same words too on FB. I know EXACTLY who this is.

 

[TonySantiago]

As for Tony I like EDM myself in limited doses andi also like Death Metal but im smart enough to know that there is not enough of a diversity, or enough of an audience to sustain it as a format. And Tony yes you are a bit out of touch because for how many years now youve been on this board and it is not an exaggeration to say that you will post as an answer to virtually all questions "they should go dance". C'mon man, agenda noted. Move on already 8)

Like I said, I know who this is. And he is someone in the industry. Apologies for the length of this in advance but I need to state things "for the record"

I've ran the coalition for close to 19 years. Despite the crap I've dealt with from radio professionals such as yourself throughout those years, I have always stood by dance music because no one else did, by coming out with something that was admittedly a crazy, far fetched idea like what I did. Yet the premise was simple....to get like minded fans to come together. With that, I've also gained the respect from dance music industry professionals and I'm certainly not going to let them down. I do this tirelessly and not for one penny because I don't just listen to dance music, I believe in it. So, no...I'm NOT going to move on. I'm NEVER going to back down.

The only "agenda" for me is that everyone in the industry becomes successful and even though we have tons of stations on the Internet that play the edgier dance material (along with what I do on Party Radio USA), I still think (and based on what's happening with FM, I question myself too.) that terrestrial radio still matters.

Okay....let's get to some history because despite what you think, not every answer I gave involved "dance music".

1993 - On an AOL Radio Professionals board as Z-100 had that "grunge" moment (someone did note that as a failure), I had suggested that they go back to being Top 40/CHR because that's what they did best. And it goes back to what Scott Shannon created with the format and the "Morning Zoo" concept.

1996 - As 'KTU launched on 103.5 thus removing "Country 103.5" (WYNY), I felt for the fans of the music feeling that in a matter of time, suburban stations would consider the format. Someone thought that because the 107.1 trimulcast happened eventually.

2005 - When WCBS-FM flipped to "Jack", I was in full support for the station to go back to oldies.

2012 - I was stunned just as everyone else when 98.7 Kiss flipped to ESPN. But I never made any sort of yell, after the fact, that they should have gone dance.

2012 - Everyone here knew that News 101.9 was a disaster. What did I suggest? That perhaps they make it a traffic/weather only station. Not dance.

So if I'm slightly out of touch here....

1. Death Metal may have its devoted followers (I work with two people that follow it so I do know it), but it is extremely minimal to support a radio frequency.

2. Polka has its following, but there is not a huge Polish population that could support an existence of a station on the FM dial (though my understanding is that WRKL-AM in Rockland County did such a format at one time...correct me if I am wrong).

3. Klezmer may have a strong following in the orthodox Jewish communities, and there are certainly pockets of them in NYC (Williamsburg, Park Slope, Riverdale) and upstate (Kiryas Joel & areas of Rockland County) but that could not support a full-time station because those communities, while very strong, do not take up a large population.

'KTU (92.3) had a huge following amongst the Italian and Latino crowds (but they are not the only ones that tuned in) yet there is a significant population base. That same population base also accepted Hot 103/97. And despite the fact that 'KTU (103.5) may not have played as much current dance music as they could have at the time (later, after the station became what it is now, I did have discussions with Frankie Blue and Jeff Z where I did regret on some things), people accepted them. And for the younger crowd and those of us older folks that still followed dance, Pulse 87 still captured a large crowd.

Could a dance station as I've described it work in Rochester? Probably not. Could it work in Alabama? Most likely not. And despite being rim shots, a lot of people that live out in Suffolk and those in the Hudson Valley had moved from NYC..aka "white flight". Yet they took whatever they followed musically along with them. That is why you have a Party 105 out in Long Island and a Drive FX in the Hudson Valley.

I'm never getting off this. Oh, and another reality and this is based on the direction FM is going.....if a dance/EDM station DID launch in New York on the FM dial, it will also be the last one because by that time more people will have migrated over to streaming car stereos and have no further use for FM musically.

Still out of touch?

 

[d21ofnj]

I'm noticing the ones bashing EDM the most are rock alternative fans or the ones programming some sort of rock format.....oh wait, rock stations were flipping to disco back then and some are still getting their "happiness" off from that day in Chicago. As much as this is going to be foul, YOU are the ones who failed to get dance music off the radar and it burns you guys everyday that the Disco Sucks Campaign FAILED to get the job done. So in order to sugar coat your hatred towards the dance format, it's easier to state the "it won't work, it's only for clubs" BS. Great professionalism.

 

[davideduardo]

David Mexico City and Europe are not applicable comparisons because European culture differs completely from America musically.

I've built most of my career on doing formats that "won't work here" that, for some reason or another, did work and went to #1.

"It won't work here" is usually either an excuse or a cop-out to cover ignorance of what a segment of the audience actually wanted.

The issue with a dance core station... which as Tony says would include a lot of rhythmic mainstream material... is familiarity and exposure.

It was said that dance would not work in Mexico City. I even had doubts. Yet the dance station is "on fire" and doing very well. It took a few months to get the street vibe translated into ratings numbers, but that kind of format nearly always works that way going from the streets outward.

Given the fact that New York is well over 20% Hispanic, you have a core where EDM can immediately prosper (remember, KTU at the very start played some salsa numbers) and the number of European and international immigrants there is huge... people who may have more interest in EDM than you think. And, once done and if done right, given the Pulse experience of cuming consistently 900,000 to one million persons with a ratty signal... EDM is probably the major unserved taste segment in the NYC market. Not rock, not country, not smooth jazz... but EDM.

 

[FellOutBoy]

David Mexico City and Europe are not applicable comparisons because European culture differs completely from America musically.

I've built most of my career on doing formats that "won't work here" that, for some reason or another, did work and went to #1.

"It won't work here" is usually either an excuse or a cop-out to cover ignorance of what a segment of the audience actually wanted.

The issue with a dance core station... which as Tony says would include a lot of rhythmic mainstream material... is familiarity and exposure.

It was said that dance would not work in Mexico City. I even had doubts. Yet the dance station is "on fire" and doing very well. It took a few months to get the street vibe translated into ratings numbers, but that kind of format nearly always works that way going from the streets outward.

Given the fact that New York is well over 20% Hispanic, you have a core where EDM can immediately prosper (remember, KTU at the very start played some salsa numbers) and the number of European and international immigrants there is huge... people who may have more interest in EDM than you think. And, once done and if done right, given the Pulse experience of cuming consistently 900,000 to one million persons with a ratty signal... EDM is probably the major unserved taste segment in the NYC market. Not rock, not country, not smooth jazz... but EDM.

WHOA! reality check in!@ D21ofNJ, Let's start with I didnt bash EDM I stated that i like the genre musically but that does not make it a viable format. @Tony try reading, nowhere did I say that i hated dance, I mentioned a couple of artists specifically and I like the genre. As for Dance could work by sprinkling in some crossover chr hits etc, Tony is also the one who often reminds the board that KTU is not dance BECAUSE they play as you stated a lot of rhythmic etc artists, aka hits as opposed to being straight up EDM. I agree with him there. It's a marketing device much like WLTW calling itself "lite" in truth it is anything but a lite station, it is a pretty upbeat hot AC, calling itself lite makes it palatable for office everywhere, its smart programming, So KTU is not pure dance, Tony is correct there. I do think KTU harkens back to the days of disco stations who would play the "disco remix" of a pop hit as to make their playlists more inclusive knowing that straight "disco" was not broad enough of a format to sustain beyond the hardcore club hoppers. i said it wouldnt work and is a bad idea because it appeals to a very small niche. I have my doubts that Pulse cumed 900 thou to a million because of it's signal limitations alone before you even get to the product but if you say it did i accept it. it's not an argument we just have differing opinions.

 

[davideduardo]

"It won't work here" is usually either an excuse or a cop-out to cover ignorance of whI have my doubts that Pulse cumed 900 thou to a million because of it's signal limitations alone before you even get to the product but if you say it did i accept it. it's not an argument we just have differing opinions.

Now we get into whether the PPM is accurate, which is usually the argument of a station that had a down book.

As friends at Arbitron have said over the years, "there are always three groups of subscribers: the ones who won, who think it is their genius that did it, those who stayed the same, who are relatively quiet, and those who lost, who know it was Arbitron's fault."

The PPM over many books showed Pulse with around a million cume. Could that be off? Yep! Could it be off by 100,000 persons? Probably not.

 

[KyleSmith1988]

I haven't seen anyone mention 94.7 Family Radio WFME, or 99.5 WBAI, those have been a fail and waste for years.
I'm sure most people skip them, and forgets they're even on the dial...Hence why they weren't mentioned,
most people don't care about them.

HD Radio in NY has more of any audience I'm sure...

 

[FellOutBoy]

"It won't work here" is usually either an excuse or a cop-out to cover ignorance of whI have my doubts that Pulse cumed 900 thou to a million because of it's signal limitations alone before you even get to the product but if you say it did i accept it. it's not an argument we just have differing opinions.

Now we get into whether the PPM is accurate, which is usually the argument of a station that had a down book.

As friends at Arbitron have said over the years, "there are always three groups of subscribers: the ones who won, who think it is their genius that did it, those who stayed the same, who are relatively quiet, and those who lost, who know it was Arbitron's fault."

The PPM over many books showed Pulse with around a million cume. Could that be off? Yep! Could it be off by 100,000 persons? Probably not.

I did not say "it wont work here" I did say that EDM is not a viable format, it is not broad enough in appeal, period. You used European markets and Mexico City as examples of how it cam work, I pointed out that these are places that are completely different to begin with in terms of what even gets on the radio to begin with. As I said, I will take your word for it if you say so. So I stand corrected Pulse had a cume of almost 900,000, yet it still failed.

 

[TonySantiago]

I did not say "it wont work here" I did say that EDM is not a viable format, it is not broad enough in appeal, period. You used European markets and Mexico City as examples of how it cam work, I pointed out that these are places that are completely different to begin with in terms of what even gets on the radio to begin with. As I said, I will take your word for it if you say so. So I stand corrected Pulse had a cume of almost 900,000, yet it still failed.

And for the 164,323,507th time, Pulse failed because of the anomalies it had (bad signal, bad dial location, mismanagement of the parent company). All three variables could apply if there was a rock station there, an R&B station there, an oldies station there, etc. But the MUSIC aspect of it was not, I repeat, NOT the reason the format failed.

'KTU, okay. I am NOT knocking their success in terms of the format they have now. It appeals to women, mainly the females that once went to clubs back in the days but because they now have families and responsibilities (school, events, etc.) while they still enjoy music with a beat or as the station says "feel good", it is the safe material. I do not hear any extended version of any song on that station outside of the Saturday night shows and Hollywood Hamilton's specials. They play the radio version during the day, no different than any other station. For what it is, the station is successful as a rhythmic A/C. But there's no way, hell or high water that you're going to convince me that what 'KTU is doing now IS DANCE. It's like expecting a Big Mac when you're really getting a "hamburger". A hamburger is good, but it's not a "Big Mac".

You do not know the dance music crowd as intently as I do "FellOut". You may see statistics, charts, etc. because that's what you do in radio. But you do not see the PEOPLE. And what I mean by that is that you don't intimately explore the clubs, see the people dance, hear cars with dance music blasting out of them, boat parties, dance music industry events to really have a feel for what I do.

Obviously we are both steadfast with our beliefs but let's face it, bad ideas? There have been MANY bad ideas in terms of radio...thus this thread. Free FM was a disaster. News 101.9 was a disaster. Anything on 105.1 between WNSR and Power 105.1 (with the exception of Jammin 105) were bad ideas. Blink was a disaster. So how can a dance/EDM format, that is growing in popularity in this country, with New York being a rhythmic market to begin with, which WOULD CATER to a mass appeal because commercial elements have to be a part of it along with the edgier stuff, be a bad idea?

I've heard niche from day one of the coalition. I beg to differ because I DO meet the fans of the music and there are a lot more than you, and others that are equally closed minded about it, care to see.

I have to keep proving my theories and hopefully something can come to fruition. That's my job. You don't have to agree and that's okay. But I'm certainly not going to let you or anyone cut down the music (even if you say you "like" aspects of it). We are in a different time now then as recent as 4 years ago when Pulse was on the air. If there is ANY time for a dance format to happen...IT IS NOW. If country or other formats come along the way, that's fine. But NOW is the time for DANCE/EDM. Not all tracks have to sound like Avicii, but at the same time we can't have it sound like a 'KTU either.

We can keep going at it. I'm all good with that. David Eduardo nailed it with his comments and he is a big radio professional, as you know. If you don't want to hear it from me, then hear it from your "own".

 

[TonySantiago]

I haven't seen anyone mention 94.7 Family Radio WFME, or 99.5 WBAI, those have been a fail and waste for years.
I'm sure most people skip them, and forgets they're even on the dial...Hence why they weren't mentioned,
most people don't care about them.

HD Radio in NY has more of any audience I'm sure...

Until Harold Camping decides to sell off 94.7 and Pacifica gets out of the radio business with 99.5, those stations will NEVER change. Ratings don't matter for them, so as long as they receive donations. Though, keep "Liquid Sound Lounge"

 

[FellOutBoy]

I haven't seen anyone mention 94.7 Family Radio WFME, or 99.5 WBAI, those have been a fail and waste for years.
I'm sure most people skip them, and forgets they're even on the dial...Hence why they weren't mentioned,
most people don't care about them.

HD Radio in NY has more of any audience I'm sure...

Until Harold Camping decides to sell off 94.7 and Pacifica gets out of the radio business with 99.5, those stations will NEVER change. Ratings don't matter for them, so as long as they receive donations. Though, keep "Liquid Sound Lounge"

I'm not an enemy of Dance son, nor am I "downing the music' by saying EDM is not mass appeal enough to support an entire 24/7 format and I doubted that it would have been top five regardless of where it was on the dial. No one said dance music is bad, no one said any other type of music is better, the thread is about "the biggest failures in NY radio" and someone else brought up Pulse before I did, it WAS; period for WHATEVER reason, it failed. Nor am I the first person on this board to say Tony the answer to everything is not "dance", ive been lurking here for a long time and know i'm not the first person who has called you out about that there's no reason for you to take offense 8) you have thrown that idea around more than you realize. that's fine we are simply not in agreement. However most importantly there is this:

"I've ran the coalition for close to 19 years".

No son, you've RUN the coalition for close to 19 years. Congratulations on your tenure.

 

[davideduardo]

I did not say "it wont work here" I did say that EDM is not a viable format, it is not broad enough in appeal, period. You used European markets and Mexico City as examples of how it cam work, I pointed out that these are places that are completely different to begin with in terms of what even gets on the radio to begin with. As I said, I will take your word for it if you say so. So I stand corrected Pulse had a cume of almost 900,000, yet it still failed.

Pulse failed as a station, not as a format. It was horrendously under-capitalized, apparently managed without a knowledge of the highly transactional nature of NYC Radio, and was always a "FrankenFM" on the analog audio channel of Channel 6 TV at the lower limits of the FM band where, unlike the Starship Enterprise, not all radios are able to go.

I used Mexico City as an example of a "you can't do it here" market. There are worldwide examples of EDM / Dance working in plenty of places where it was not previously exposed save in the club scene.

And I mentioned that NYC has the demos to accept dance. If the Pulse signal, which put a 65 dbu over less than 25% of the market population, got a cume of about a million, I think all of us, objectively, can see what a good signal, a well capitalized operator, good management and aggressive sales coupled with the right programming and promotion might do.

Pulse is certainly fairly conclusive proof that the format could work.

 

[FellOutBoy]

I did not say "it wont work here" I did say that EDM is not a viable format, it is not broad enough in appeal, period. You used European markets and Mexico City as examples of how it cam work, I pointed out that these are places that are completely different to begin with in terms of what even gets on the radio to begin with. As I said, I will take your word for it if you say so. So I stand corrected Pulse had a cume of almost 900,000, yet it still failed.

Pulse failed as a station, not as a format. It was horrendously under-capitalized, apparently managed without a knowledge of the highly transactional nature of NYC Radio, and was always a "FrankenFM" on the analog audio channel of Channel 6 TV at the lower limits of the FM band where, unlike the Starship Enterprise, not all radios are able to go.

I used Mexico City as an example of a "you can't do it here" market. There are worldwide examples of EDM / Dance working in plenty of places where it was not previously exposed save in the club scene.

And I mentioned that NYC has the demos to accept dance. If the Pulse signal, which put a 65 dbu over less than 25% of the market population, got a cume of about a million, I think all of us, objectively, can see what a good signal, a well capitalized operator, good management and aggressive sales coupled with the right programming and promotion might do.

Pulse is certainly fairly conclusive proof that the format could work.

David I understand your example of Mexico City but the point i was making was that when you cite European markets as places where it's wroking that is because EDM shows up in the charts there on the traditional CHR lists because the European charts tend to feature all sorts of genre next to each other be it an EDm song at number 15 and a Reggae song at number 14 followed by a pure pop song at number 13, so it is just a different culture musically to begin with, not as segregated and compartmentalized in terms of format as the U.S, so using European markets as examples that it works as a format does not really make the point as far as im concerned as Europe is a lot more dance centric even in it's "pop" music to begin with from Kylie Minogue down the line. That was my point and yes Pulse was run by people without a clue about any aspect of business as a whole let alone programming.