Bill Handel on the declining OTA audience and revenue for KFI.

[michael hagerty]

Handel was on the Archer and Feldman podcast and Barrett Media has a story on it. Essential pull-quote:

“Maybe five or eight years ago, over the course of a week, I had 1.1 million listeners tune in to the morning show. We are going to be lucky to get past 450,000. We lost 60-65% of the audience. Now I am told that they have all gone on to streaming and podcasting. They podcast our show, which they put up with new commercials inserted and edited down. So you get 45 minutes instead of an hour and a half of the show. But we’re told that the listeners have moved over there and we have just as many listeners. Well, I don’t know because they’re really not measured. And if you look at revenue, revenue has just collapsed. It is 25-40% of what it was 10 years ago.”

Full article: Bill Handel: We've Lost 65% of Our AM Radio Audience on KFI in Past Decade

Archer and Feldman podcast:

 

[garfradio]

Wow, interesting peek inside here. That Bill is saying cume has dropped by 2/3 (!) over 10 years really brings home the issue. Is this cume decline consistent for AM talk stations in other PPM markets?

Question (may not be answerable with real data) -- how much of that decline is (1) overall shift of audience attention to other audio sources vs (2) audience 'aging-out'? Not to be too morbid, but effectively all of the heritage AMs still kicking have very old core audiences -- a non-zero % of the cume from 10 years ago have passed on.

 

[ted chittenden]

Basically what this amounts to is that radio broadcasters were a big fish in a little pond but now, with many other choices available, broadcasters are really a small fish in a *very* big lake. My guess (and I've written this before) is that while advertisers are switching to the Internet, they are becoming more selective in what specific Internet radio stations they will advertise on and how much they are willing to spend on that advertising. Also keep in mind that webcasting, unlike radio broadcasting, has a lot more in common, especially with the rates structure for playing music, with narrowcasting than with broadcasting.

 

[kevtronics]

Question (may not be answerable with real data) -- how much of that decline is (1) overall shift of audience attention to other audio sources vs (2) audience 'aging-out'? Not to be too morbid, but effectively all of the heritage AMs still kicking have very old core audiences -- a non-zero % of the cume from 10 years ago have passed on.

Conservative talk radio in California, 2021: "Escape the socialist hellhole of California, and move to MAGA-friendly Texas or Florida!"

Conservative talk radio in California, 2026: "Why has half our audience disappeared?"

 

[TheBigA]

Handel says the podcasts aren't measured. But he's wrong about that. In fact the measurement for podcasts is more exact than it is for broadcast. The station knows exactly how many people download the podcast and how long they listen. It's not based on a small sample of people wearing PPMs. They also know geographically where those listeners are. It's the main reason radio companies are investing in podcasting rather than on broadcasting.

But yes, everything else he's saying fits with what we're seeing everywhere else. And by the way, it's also affecting TV viewership.

 

[TheBigA]

Wow, interesting peek inside here. That Bill is saying cume has dropped by 2/3 (!) over 10 years really brings home the issue. Is this cume decline consistent for AM talk stations in other PPM markets?

Yes, cume tends to be lower for talk than music. But that's because the people listen longer. Music radio listeners tune in and out more. But we were having a conversation about the huge drop of cume at KNX News Radio. So it's affected them as well.

Gutting of KNX 1070

While others are enjoying dissecting the mostly forgettable programming on 97.1, I've been interested in what KNX 1070's audience was going to look like after the return to AM. While I can only see the 6+ numbers, it gives us some idea of how much of the audience migrated from 97.1 to 1070...

radiodiscussions.com

Keep in mind the cume loss Handel is talking about happened while the programming for the most part remained the same. So the listeners weren't being driven away by the programming. They just found new things and were happy with that. So this isn't a programming problem. It won't be fixed by hiring more on-air staff.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Yes, cume tends to be lower for talk than music. But that's because the people listen longer. Music radio listeners tune in and out more. But we were having a conversation about the huge drop of cume at KNX News Radio. So it's affected them as well.

Gutting of KNX 1070

While others are enjoying dissecting the mostly forgettable programming on 97.1, I've been interested in what KNX 1070's audience was going to look like after the return to AM. While I can only see the 6+ numbers, it gives us some idea of how much of the audience migrated from 97.1 to 1070...

radiodiscussions.com

Keep in mind the cume loss Handel is talking about happened while the programming for the most part remained the same. So the listeners weren't being driven away by the programming. They just found new things and were happy with that. So this isn't a programming problem. It won't be fixed by hiring more on-air staff.

If only KFI had a real news department with a news director that has carte blanche to interrupt the stars' shows with "news as it breaks". Think how much higher the cume would be then!

 

[b-turner]

What it boils down to is half the audience is listening to the online version and the rest on the device called radio. We are talking about a shift in how the show is consumed. That opens up the revenue question. Comparing over the air to online, what does the revenue look like? AM listening is declining and so is revenue on AM. How much of that revenue lost is being made back online? From what he says his audience is 50% on AM and 50% online.

We have to think of radio as a product not tied to a radio but simply as a product available on various venues. We need to think revenue from all the venues to see the full picture. Let's compare: is TV dying because you don't watch the over the air product on a TV set? How about cable, online providers and the TV station website. Certainly TV is not dead because people do not consume the product on an over the air product using an unconnected TV set.

 

[michael hagerty]

If only KFI had a real news department with a news director that has carte blanche to interrupt the stars' shows with "news as it breaks". Think how much higher the cume would be then!

I mean, it literally was. Chris Little and the entire KFI newsroom with news "On the hour, on the half and when it breaks" was during KFI's peak in audience and revenue.

That does not mean they were responsible for it, but they certainly weren't responsible for the decline, nor has their departure improved ratings or revenue.

 

[michael hagerty]

What it boils down to is half the audience is listening to the online version and the rest on the device called radio. We are talking about a shift in how the show is consumed. That opens up the revenue question. Comparing over the air to online, what does the revenue look like? AM listening is declining and so is revenue on AM. How much of that revenue lost is being made back online?

I asked that question on another thread (not concerning KFI) about three weeks ago and was told that in general there is parity between OTA revenue and digital.

Buffalo - Do young people even know what radio is?

I'm 50. I used to listen to the radio all the time growing up, and a variety of stations... but that was when there was radio, TV and newspapers as the dominant formats for media. Since the 1980s and 1990s, everything has changed and "kids these days" are, in my opinion, even aware that there...

radiodiscussions.com

I'm guessing there's more to it than that.

 

[Weiserguy]

If only KFI had a real news department with a news director that has carte blanche to interrupt the stars' shows with "news as it breaks". Think how much higher the cume would be then!

I mean, it literally was. Chris Little and the entire KFI newsroom with news "On the hour, on the half and when it breaks" was during KFI's peak in audience and revenue.

That does not mean they were responsible for it, but they certainly weren't responsible for the decline, nor has their departure improved ratings or revenue.

KFI evolved into an L.A. version of KGO, and was programmed by a KGO veteran, Robin Bertolucci. Both stations were news-heavy. Their philosophy was, "We'll give you the news often enough so you're an informed, up-to-date listener. And when there isn't news breaking, we'll entertain and inform you with some of the best talk talent in the business, and topics that will engage you." It was a format that worked for a long time, very profitably. But all good things come to an end -- if you doubt me, stare into your mirror for a minute or twelve -- and what made KFI and KGO work no longer does. Hubris isn't the whole story, but it played a non-zero part in that decline.

 

[michael hagerty]

KFI evolved into an L.A. version of KGO, and was programmed by a KGO veteran, Robin Bertolucci. Both stations were news-heavy. Their philosophy was, "We'll give you the news often enough so you're an informed, up-to-date listener. And when there isn't news breaking, we'll entertain and inform you with some of the best talk talent in the business, and topics that will engage you." It was a format that worked for a long time, very profitably. But all good things come to an end -- if you doubt me, stare into your mirror for a minute or twelve -- and what made KFI and KGO work no longer does. Hubris isn't the whole story, but it played a non-zero part in that decline.

Yeah, but let's also underscore the remaining point---there is nothing to support the notion that KFI lost altitude because the newsroom interrupted a host for breaking news.

 

[TheBigA]

My view is this isn't a programming problem. It's a lifestyle problem. It's not getting better. The cume didn't drop because of programming. Changing the programming won't bring them back. They didn't go to other stations. They stopped using the device. That's a very big difference. This is why Handel is doing a podcast. This is why radio stations stream. This is why Audacy made a deal with Sirius. Companies have adjusted their budgets to account for this. That's why they're laying off staff. Once again, the listeners aren't coming back. They found other things to do with their time and other devices to get their information.

 

[Weiserguy]

Yeah, but let's also underscore the remaining point---there is nothing to support the notion that KFI lost altitude because the newsroom interrupted a host for breaking news.

Taking that further, I have no doubt that a news person who frequently tried to interrupt programming for non-important news bulletins wouldn't last at either station for very long.

 

[michael hagerty]

Taking that further, I have no doubt that a news person who frequently tried to interrupt programming for non-important news bulletins wouldn't last at either station for very long.

Chris Little is a consummate pro. I've met or heard most of the people who worked for him. They weren't breaking in for stuff that didn't warrant it.

 

[KilowattKat]

Well, some good news...

Both cume and share went up for KFI in the latest PPM. From 3.9 to 4.5. Around 450K to 507K.

 

[ted chittenden]

I asked that question on another thread (not concerning KFI) about three weeks ago and was told that in general there is parity between OTA revenue and digital.

Buffalo - Do young people even know what radio is?

I'm 50. I used to listen to the radio all the time growing up, and a variety of stations... but that was when there was radio, TV and newspapers as the dominant formats for media. Since the 1980s and 1990s, everything has changed and "kids these days" are, in my opinion, even aware that there...

radiodiscussions.com

I'm guessing there's more to it than that.

When you switch from listening on the radio to listening online, the number of stations, both broadcasting and Internet-only, expands by the thousands. That means that the ad dollars spent for the radio station you used to listen to on the radio aren't necessarily going to go to that station's online feed--there are just too many alternatives available!

 

[b-turner]

Not when you are a mom and pop. What matters are options that serve their trade area without paying for the rest of the world.

Granted, some advertisers make dumb decisions like the restaurant that buys billboards. To get there from the billboard you have to exit to another highway then take a certain exit and drive a mile after passing about 20 other dining options. I talk hungry hours advertising and advertising daily specials and I get "our cutomers come because of our billboards" as I gaze at a dining room with 3 tables taken.

 

[radiofan2023]

It could be worse...Handel could be working at KABC!

 

[TheBigA]

When you switch from listening on the radio to listening online, the number of stations, both broadcasting and Internet-only, expands by the thousands.

If content really is king, then shouldn't original live radio win over everything else?

The fact is that people have stopped using radio as a device. It's not the go-to for information. So they can stay on AM, or adapt and go where the audience is. If that means more competition, then so be it. But listeners won't be going back to AM radio no matter what the station does.