Bluewater wants to sell station WACV, Montgomery, Alabama for asking price of $200,000.00 according to a posting by Rick Peters, on the Montgomery TV and Radio site. But Bluewater, recently emerged from bankrupcy, does not want to repair WACV 1170's transmitting system and now wants to REDUCE power from licensed 10,000 watts daytime, 1,000 watts nightime to only 5,000 watts daytime and 7 watts nightime. It was not too long ago Peters (not his real name) posted on this board under Take it Outside he had ordered a new transmitter. Guess if Peters wants to hear his radio station at night with only 7 watts, he can drive to the tower site with his flashlight and small radio and go next to the WACV tower and listen. With the poor ground conductivity in Alabama, this seems like a stupid move, and would make the station less desirable for a new owner if the station gets sold at all. Peters claims on this board to be cash flowing over 1 million a year after the bankrupcy, so one might think Bluewater could afford to repair the broken WACV tranmitter site. Maybe Al Stroh might be interested in getting another Montgomery station.
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Bluewater WACV For Sale
- Thread starter busterluck
- Start date
Years ago I looked at 1170's (it was WCOV then) night pattern ...as I remember the xmtr site was on the north side of town, and it sent two lobes, one south, one south-southeast, with a null between them. It looked like the null went through the center of town. Did this screwy situation actually result in poor night coverage in the center of town? Also, I could never figure out why they were DA-D. Who were they protecting? Radio-Locator says 2 towers day, 6 at night. Perhaps the drop from 10 kw to 5 kw day enables them to go non-DA days. It's no secret that maintaining a 6 tower array is costly ... you gotta paint 'em, light 'em, and insure 'em, and pay an engineer to constantly keep it within licensed parameters. The proposed new facility should get it down to one tower, but it sounds like a better idea is to pull the plug. The 1170 freq has two 50 kw giants, in Wheeling WV and Tulsa OK. I can see why you can't radiate much power at night in the direction of those two.
I recall a similar situation in Montgomery. In the old days, there was WRMA 950, a 1 kw daytimer, black programmed. Then they put up 4 towers to get night operation and switched to top 40. Think that was about 1973-74. From what I see in radio-locator, it looks like the multi-tower array is history, and it's now essentially a daytimer with 45 watts night on one stick.
I recall a similar situation in Montgomery. In the old days, there was WRMA 950, a 1 kw daytimer, black programmed. Then they put up 4 towers to get night operation and switched to top 40. Think that was about 1973-74. From what I see in radio-locator, it looks like the multi-tower array is history, and it's now essentially a daytimer with 45 watts night on one stick.
Montgomery used to have 740 WBAM 50KW daytime only with at tall tower located just south of Montgomery, WBAM was a flame thower signal. But various owners over the years moved the transmitter site, and now it is 10KW, not a flame thower. WACV needs to be re-engineered with a different transmitter site for night time and using a directional pattern that covers the market with the 1000 watts night time. Lowering night power to 7 watts and 5KW days ruins the value to the facility over the long haul. The proposed lowering of power is a knee jerk reaction by a struggling owner. Better soultion for now is to repair the storm damage and then find a new buyer if that is what they want to do to unload 1170. 1170 is a good dial spot and the WACV signal can be improved if ownership desires. What happened to the new transmitter "on order" that Peters stated in privious posting on this board?
Busterluck,
You sure are long in attitude, but shirt on facts and accuracy. AM signals, especially one with terrible nighttime restrictions are best used with FM translators. Engineering studies which we have had conducted show that 5kw daytime will sufficiently cover the metro and allow full use of a translator - which can run 24/7, nighttime power not withstanding. Pull down 4 towers and simplify the plant. Oh, and then, instead of rebuilding the entire AM facility, invest in WQKS HD which allows 2 translators associated with 96.1 instead on 1 with the AM. Lesson over.
You sure are long in attitude, but shirt on facts and accuracy. AM signals, especially one with terrible nighttime restrictions are best used with FM translators. Engineering studies which we have had conducted show that 5kw daytime will sufficiently cover the metro and allow full use of a translator - which can run 24/7, nighttime power not withstanding. Pull down 4 towers and simplify the plant. Oh, and then, instead of rebuilding the entire AM facility, invest in WQKS HD which allows 2 translators associated with 96.1 instead on 1 with the AM. Lesson over.
Buster, you are right about WBAM. I was living in Atmore until 1962, maybe 110 air miles from Montgomery. Except for 2 local stations, 1590 Atmore and 990 Flomaton, WBAM was the strongest signal on the daytime dial. Much stronger than the Mobile and Pensacola stations only 40-45 miles away. WBAM actually was DA-D - had to slightly null the NE toward adjacent channel 750 WSB Atlanta, so it pushed an ERP in the opposite direction (SW toward Atmore) in excess of 50 kw. Seems like someone told me that one of the two towers was 5/8 wave height (the other one was somewhat shorter). Because of 50 kw stations in Houston TX and Tulsa OK there wasn't much chance of WBAM being anything but a daytimer (back then daytimers actually signed off rather than stay on past sunset with 100 watts or less).
WBAM studio/xmtr site was on what was then called the Southern Bypass (don't they now call it South Blvd?). Perhaps the drop from 50 kw to 10 kw was to eliminate the necessity of being directional, and to save on the cost of a transmitter and the electricity to operate it. Last time I passed through Atmore, the 740 signal there was a mere shadow of its former self.
WBAM studio/xmtr site was on what was then called the Southern Bypass (don't they now call it South Blvd?). Perhaps the drop from 50 kw to 10 kw was to eliminate the necessity of being directional, and to save on the cost of a transmitter and the electricity to operate it. Last time I passed through Atmore, the 740 signal there was a mere shadow of its former self.
There is not much price difference between a 5KW and 10KW AM transmitter compared to the devaluation of WACV with only 5KW. "Peters" says in a post on this board that a new transmitter has been ordered..I guess that is a 7 watt Pee Wee rig for the proposed rape of the nightime signal is what he means. With all the free flowing cash flow that Bluewater claims it is making so soon after the bankrupcy, why not spend a little and fix the WACV transmitter site the right way? You can check out the WACV directional patterns on the FCC
website, and at the same time there is an interesting detailed financial filing with the bankrupcy information that makes interesting reading. It is a lession in the operation of Bluewater P&L
website, and at the same time there is an interesting detailed financial filing with the bankrupcy information that makes interesting reading. It is a lession in the operation of Bluewater P&L
Again, for the uniformed, ignorant, or misled like Busterluck...the price of the transmitter is insignificant, true. Howver, the expenses associated with maintaining 1930's technology aren't The electric bill drops about 10k per year with the 5kw - not insignificant. Maintaining a 6 tower array vs. 2 towers is significant. Most importantly is the difference in signal. Dropping to 5kw decreases the 2mv signal around 5 miles, all outside the metro in farmville. Guess there will be less cows listening to WACV. Investing serious dollars in antiquated technology is foolish. Again, the best use of AM frequencies these days is with FM fill-in translators. 5kw sufficiently covers the entire metro, and allows full use of a translator. The night signal is irrelevant. Frankly, I'd rather invest 100k in WQKS HD which also allows the use of translators. If you disagree with this approach, why don't you scrounge up 200-300k, buy the station, and give your educated opinions a go in the real world.
Dothan Radio said:
WACV isn't a daytimer. The piddly nighttime power they're seeking will make them a de facto daytimer for 99.9% of Montgomery. And since daytimers don't make great money, I too question the desire to lower power… The noise on AM is higher than ever with all our modern electronics. Stations need more daytime power, not less.
BUT the greater point is that these sticks are just empty placeholders these days for FM translators, that's where the money is supposedly at. With that reality in mind, then I can see where the drop in power and towers makes a lot of dollars and sense.
There are some technical matters being discussed that deserve a clearer light.
1: The current 10 KW signal is directional to the south, meaning the signal radiated toward Montgomery is enhanced. Going to a single tower at 5KW may thus cause more of a drop-off than expected toward the concentration of the area population.
2: This is not the first AM downgrade that I have seen proposed because, in effect, multiple towers are "too hard to maintain". My question is how so? Because an operator only has to walk out to one tower several times a year versus five more (for example to check connector tightness or to spray some weed killer)? Taking down five towers means lightning will therefore never hit the remaining tower?
My second point is perhaps more rhetorical than technical. The station owners are of course free to perform whatever downgrade they see fit. But if the real answer is simply "we don't want to pay engineers and equipment costs (to maintain the physical plant)", let's be more honest about that -- and the resultant degradation of service to the public.
1: The current 10 KW signal is directional to the south, meaning the signal radiated toward Montgomery is enhanced. Going to a single tower at 5KW may thus cause more of a drop-off than expected toward the concentration of the area population.
2: This is not the first AM downgrade that I have seen proposed because, in effect, multiple towers are "too hard to maintain". My question is how so? Because an operator only has to walk out to one tower several times a year versus five more (for example to check connector tightness or to spray some weed killer)? Taking down five towers means lightning will therefore never hit the remaining tower?
My second point is perhaps more rhetorical than technical. The station owners are of course free to perform whatever downgrade they see fit. But if the real answer is simply "we don't want to pay engineers and equipment costs (to maintain the physical plant)", let's be more honest about that -- and the resultant degradation of service to the public.
Dr.T, you are partially correct, but in actuality, WAVC isn't maximized to the south, it is nulled to the north in order to protect Hayneville (or whatever it's called). In any case, we aren't going non-D daytime, so the daytime pattern will not change just be reduced. The result is a 5 mile (pick a direction) reduction in primary coverage, which does NOT impact any of the three metro counties. It does affect the bottom line though. Phasing a 6 tower array and keeping it in tolerance is a costly proposition. Last time we did it, it cost over 26K and two specialists in phased arrays. This is 1930's technology.
As far as nighttime is concerned. The current WACV pattern is a disaster even at 1kw. We cannot even receive the station at the studios. There is no reason to keep it on with 1kw. Yes, these facilities are being used with fill-in translator service. That is exactly what the Commission intended. They knew that nighttime interference and reduced power, and overall techical disadvantages of AM radio were not in the public interest. The translator allows us coverage both day and night anywhere within the 2mv contour. That is in the public interest. 7 watts be damned.
BTW, one point - if you go and add up all the AM stations in the latest Arbitron, they have less than a 10 share combined. That's less than a 4 rating -combined. In other words, all the AM's combined are not listened to by 96% of the population - A simplification for sure, and not totally accurate, but you get my drift. Listeners have abandoned the band. Owner are turning in AM licenses left and right. FM translators are the only saving grace for AM - just like they might save HD.
And finally, yes, this is about cost vs. benefit. It is a business afterall.
As far as nighttime is concerned. The current WACV pattern is a disaster even at 1kw. We cannot even receive the station at the studios. There is no reason to keep it on with 1kw. Yes, these facilities are being used with fill-in translator service. That is exactly what the Commission intended. They knew that nighttime interference and reduced power, and overall techical disadvantages of AM radio were not in the public interest. The translator allows us coverage both day and night anywhere within the 2mv contour. That is in the public interest. 7 watts be damned.
BTW, one point - if you go and add up all the AM stations in the latest Arbitron, they have less than a 10 share combined. That's less than a 4 rating -combined. In other words, all the AM's combined are not listened to by 96% of the population - A simplification for sure, and not totally accurate, but you get my drift. Listeners have abandoned the band. Owner are turning in AM licenses left and right. FM translators are the only saving grace for AM - just like they might save HD.
And finally, yes, this is about cost vs. benefit. It is a business afterall.
Great points all, and I respect your answers.
As a former Mississippi broadcaster, I know of two situations where multi-tower facilities were abandoned... one is WOKJ Jackson 1550, 50kw/10kw DA-2 (5 towers day, 6 night), went completely silent. The other one was WVMI Biloxi 570 5 kwD/1kwN DA-2 - WVMI abandoned the 5 tower site in favor of 1640 10kw/1kw non-DA. Gulfport still has an 8-tower facility on 1390; I cannot imagine why it has survived. Montgomery has already seen the demise of a 4-tower DA (950); 1170's six-tower one may be a dinosaur.
You've likely heard of some other AMs that shut down because the multi-tower site, built years ago, was then in the boondocks outside of town ... but decades later, once the population spread out, two things happened: (1) the areas in the nulls used to be unpopulated, but now much of the metro population is no longer reached, and (2) the land became desirable for a subdivision or shopping center, and could be sold for such re-use at a price in excess of what the station is worth.
You've likely heard of some other AMs that shut down because the multi-tower site, built years ago, was then in the boondocks outside of town ... but decades later, once the population spread out, two things happened: (1) the areas in the nulls used to be unpopulated, but now much of the metro population is no longer reached, and (2) the land became desirable for a subdivision or shopping center, and could be sold for such re-use at a price in excess of what the station is worth.
Now for a question.
When will these stations get a FM translator fill in: WMGY 800 AM Montgomery, WNZZ 950 AM Montgomery, WGVY 1380 AM In Greenville, WLWI 1440 AM Montgomery, WIQR 1410 Prattville, WMSP 740 AM Montgomery and WHBB 1490 AM In Selma?
Inquiring minds want to know.
R.D.P. <><
P.S. I believe these stations would be greatly enhanced, if they were to have one.
B.T.W. Great post sflaboy. Loved it very much.
When will these stations get a FM translator fill in: WMGY 800 AM Montgomery, WNZZ 950 AM Montgomery, WGVY 1380 AM In Greenville, WLWI 1440 AM Montgomery, WIQR 1410 Prattville, WMSP 740 AM Montgomery and WHBB 1490 AM In Selma?
Inquiring minds want to know.
R.D.P. <><
P.S. I believe these stations would be greatly enhanced, if they were to have one.
B.T.W. Great post sflaboy. Loved it very much.
Cumulus has been dabbling in translators in some markets, but frankly, they don't seem all that interested in these smaller market AM stations. Both Al Stroh and Joe Hagler have been in the translator biz for some time - Hagler longer than Stroh. The Gump on WACV and Haglers 104.9 might, just might, be the first commercially viable format on an AM fill-in FM translator. If The Gump gets ratings 18-34, maybe the floodgates will open and you'll see more fringe formats on AM stations and FM translators. That would be good for the public. How about a Jazz or Blues station? Liberal Talk? Could happen.
B
BamaGrrl
Guest
sflaboy said:
Liberal talk failed miserably with Air America. .
BamaGrrl said:
Some individual hosts are getting by okay. Air America failed, as much as anything, because of poor money management. Had it had some better people behind the scenes spending the money more wisely, it might still be around in some form. Hopefully without Al Franken's boring drone.
I don't really see libtalk doing well as a full lineup on any station in Alabama.
I think you guys missed the point. The point is that an AM on a translator offers fringe formats a home. An AM can be bought these days for a few hundred grand. Studio or two and a translator - 300K total investment. That's a reasonable cost of entry. Don't have to bill 50k a month to make that work. It's exciting.
sflaboy: up above you stated that WACV 1170 protects "Hayneville" - I think you actually mean a station in HANCEVILLE (Cullman area) on 1170. I don't agree. Montgomery 1170, then WCOV, came on the air way back in 1939. It is listed as 10 kw D, 1 kw N, DA-2 in Broadcasting Yearbooks going back at least 50 years (I looked at the 1957 issue). The Hanceville station didn't come on the air until 1986, according to later Bcstg Yrbks. When WCOV built the facility, it did not have to protect Hanceville. On the contrary, Hanceville was able to get its CP, albeit with modest power, decades later, because the Montgomery signal did not reach the Cullman area.
I previously questioned why the DA-D. At the time, the nearest 1170 north of them was in Wheeling WV, and there was nothing on 1160 all the way to Chicago, and nothing on 1180 all the way to Rochester NY.
I previously questioned why the DA-D. At the time, the nearest 1170 north of them was in Wheeling WV, and there was nothing on 1160 all the way to Chicago, and nothing on 1180 all the way to Rochester NY.
Gentlemen, are you really questioning whether I know my own business? I assure you that I do. WACV protects WQHC Hanceville also on 1170. I really don't care what your yearbook says. I bought these stations in 2006. This pattern has been in existence for decades before that My only reference is my consulting engineers, who have run the contours and radials and say we have a problem north. The only reason WACV is directional daytime is due to WQHC. The nighttime signal is another story.
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