BONNEVILLE ACQUISITION OF 850kHz ?

[KFNNradioFan]

How about if Bonneville buys 850 from Clear Channel, and moves the sports to 850, and restores KIRO News/Talk to 710kHz, and then pays for the 850 acquisition with a new Lifestyle Talk format for 18-49 on 97.3fm ???

And, boost 850kHz to 50kW day (on their 4 (5?) towers) with some sort of a Casper the Friendly Ghost pattern, pointed to Issaquah and Olympia, to protect Abbotsford BC (850) and Portland (KPAM 860).

 

[Dan Sys]

850 Abbotsford is gone forever. When the old CKMA (CFVR before that) flipped to 107.1 back in 2000 Rogers donated the 850 facilities to an Aboriginal group who never did get their proposed station on 850 on the air. The towers were finally bulldozed last year.

 

[notalent]

If it were possible for 850 to increase power and become a full market presence Clear Channel would have already figured out a way to do it.

 

[HowardMBurgers]

850 Abbotsford is gone forever. When the old CKMA (CFVR before that) flipped to 107.1 back in 2000 Rogers donated the 850 facilities to an Aboriginal group who never did get their proposed station on 850 on the air. The towers were finally bulldozed last year.

Even though CFSR in Abbotsford is off, the allotment and protections remain as part of the previous treaty. Until the FCC and CRTC renegotiate the tables of allocations within 400km of the border, any discussions of moves are pointless.

KHHO also has a rather sizable protection toward KKAT 860 Salt Lake City, UT., KICY 850 Nome, Alaska, and (most recently) KPAM in Troutdale, OR. I believe part of the Southern null also protects KMPH, 840 Modesto, CA.

So as you can tell, an upgrade for 850 Tacoma is unlikely.

 

[Andrew Skotdal]

Howard is right, and 850 will never get a nighttime increase because of KOA in Denver.

 

[DangerousDan]

Yikes! Stop the insanity, people! KIRO will never "go back" to 710 AM!

Don't you think Bonneville made long-term contractual arrangements with ESPN to get Seattle metro carriage rights from KRKO?

Don't you think that Bonneville did their due diligence? They did not make this change capriciously without market studies and revenue forecasts.

"The Buzz" was an entirely different breed of FM talk than what is now on 97.3. Perhaps "hot talk" won't work here, but mainstream local right-wing news/talk? Already a solid, proven format.

If anything, it's far more likely that if Bonneville decides to put their N/T hosts back on AM, they will integrate them into the KTTH lineup and put another music format on their FM.

 

[KFNNradioFan]

Howard is right, and 850 will never get a nighttime increase because of KOA in Denver.

Unless 850 goes out to sea and towards the Olympic Peninsula like 1380 and 1520 in Everett . . . these are the areas where the KIRO FM signal doesn't cover as well . . .

 

[SeattleRadioPro]

This entire thread is a total laugher. Dan's got it right, folks!

 

[djdan]

This is the funniest thread in some time! Bonneville really has three choices:

1. Leave things as they are and improve the product on KIRO-FM and hope the Mariners win to drive KIRO AM ratings next year
2. Most sensible is to recombo KIRO AM/FM but seperate for sports programming at night, during games and on weekends...or just combo the whole way and become the powerhouse AM/FM NEWS/TALK/SPORTS in the market.
3. Put News/Talk/Sports on KIRO-AM. Take the FM Soft AC, where Bonneville has huge success. The format has little cost and a proven winner in the PPM if done right. ESPN deals move all the time and several Seattle AM stations would jump at getting some of the programming back.

All three are good options for Bonneville from a sales point of view.

 

[HowardMBurgers]

Howard is right, and 850 will never get a nighttime increase because of KOA in Denver.

Unless 850 goes out to sea and towards the Olympic Peninsula like 1380 and 1520 in Everett . . . these are the areas where the KIRO FM signal doesn't cover as well . . .

Our reading comprehension isn't up to par is it? Again, no, 850 can't move further North. It still has to protect the allocation of 850 in BC and has a big restriction toward Nome AK. (Something like the KHHO .025mW contour can't touch the KICY.025mW.) Please, give this theory a final burial.

 

[KFNNradioFan]

I did not say to push more energy to the north. That is not possible due to interference. I suggested throwing energy out to the Olympia Peninsula - NW to SW. I forgot about AM 850 Nome which if I recall is omnidirectional Class A 50kW (?).

Another option is to move the AM 850 transmitters to the Sammamish Plateau and have a 50kW 6 tower array highly directional to the SW, protecting Denver, B.C., Quebec, Nome, Modesto, North Las Vegas, Utah, and Portland, yet covering the south 2/3 of Seattle, along with Tacoma (the city of license), and Olympia.

Of course, Clear Channel has no money for this major study, however Bonneville might be interested in an investment, as they are financially OK.

Other class B transmitter sites in the Seattle area that are unfortunately in inferior locations include KKOL, KNWX (both night and day), KPTK (day now OK, night an issue), KCIS, KJR, etc. However these stations were built at a time when the population wasn't spread out to Sammamish, Issaquah, Puyallup, Olympia . . .

Upgrades of Class B stations not in the ratings are too expensive these days, especially when they receive little if any ad revenue and offer syndicated programming. It would be nice if we could go back 30-60 years when Owner/Operators moved tower sites all over the place!

 

[AQH]

Another option is to move the AM 850 transmitters to the Sammamish Plateau and have a 50kW 6 tower array highly directional to the SW, protecting Denver, B.C., Quebec, Nome, Modesto, North Las Vegas, Utah, and Portland, yet covering the south 2/3 of Seattle, along with Tacoma (the city of license), and Olympia.

Of course, Clear Channel has no money for this major study, however Bonneville might be interested in an investment, as they are financially OK.

50kw going southwest? Grab a map, you know Portlans is SSW of Seattle, right?

So, you want to pump 50,000 watts into Shelton and into The Pacific Ocean?

Being "financially ok" is not a license to do something as ridiculous as you suggest.

Leaving all the other issues on the side, including the giggle factor, do you really think that people on the Sammamish Plateau would welcome a six-tower array?

 

[SeattleRadioPro]

Just when you thought this thread couldn't get more hilarious - the OP returns to give it new laughs.

What you're seeing here folks is clear proof of what happens when you have someone who has little knowledge offering up suggestions after they surf a few websites.

Better stick to the Southwest, OP - you have NO idea what you're talking about here.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Other class B transmitter sites in the Seattle area that are unfortunately in inferior locations include <snip> KJR, etc.

Interesting... you list KJR but not KGNW despite the fact that they are diplexed into the same towers. I live 3000 miles away, so I can't listen, but it looks to me as though, given KJR's patterns and the fact that it's 50 kW-U, KJR appears to be the best Class B AM facility in the market (well, maybe except for KVI). Radically different NIFs among the many class B AMs could change that assessment, but my impression si that, because Seattle is in a corner of the 48 contiguous states, the NIFs of Seattle's Class Bs are not too bad.

 

[HowardMBurgers]

Other class B transmitter sites in the Seattle area that are unfortunately in inferior locations include <snip> KJR, etc.

Interesting... you list KJR but not KGNW despite the fact that they are diplexed into the same towers. I live 3000 miles away, so I can't listen, but it looks to me as though, given KJR's patterns and the fact that it's 50 kW-U, KJR appears to be the best Class B AM facility in the market (well, maybe except for KVI). Radically different NIFs among the many class B AMs could change that assessment, but my impression si that, because Seattle is in a corner of the 48 contiguous states, the NIFs of Seattle's Class Bs are not too bad.

In reality KJR's theoretical is much better than measured in the field. I suspect it has something to do with the efficiency, or lack thereof of the tower heights designed for 820 but operating with also 950, combined with the really poor ground conductivity of the Pacific NW area in general.

 

[Fornax]

Don't you think Bonneville made long-term contractual arrangements with ESPN to get Seattle metro carriage rights from KRKO?

Don't you think that Bonneville did their due diligence? They did not make this change capriciously without market studies and revenue forecasts.

"The Buzz" was an entirely different breed of FM talk than what is now on 97.3. Perhaps "hot talk" won't work here, but mainstream local right-wing news/talk? Already a solid, proven format.

If anything, it's far more likely that if Bonneville decides to put their N/T hosts back on AM, they will integrate them into the KTTH lineup and put another music format on their FM.

In almost any other circumstance I'd agree with you about Bonneville. I know them quite well. But as I've mentioned before, this deal leaves me baffled. Before the flip, KIRO AM was at best a very average news talk station without the sports. A marginally effective AM station is not going to suddenly blossom on FM. And there certainly was enough cumulative experience around at the time to know that KIRO AM without sports on FM was going to respond as talk stations do everywhere under PPM. Cume increases were going to be more than offset by TSL losses. There was also enough available knowledge to know play by play sports was not going to be strong enough to carry the whole day. Nor was anything locally produced and certainly not ESPN.

I certainly would have ridden the full program simulcast through some PPM months. The real question is will you make more $ with two stations ranked around 20 or one in the top 5 (12+, I know 25-54 is much worse.)

I don't think integrating the talk hosts into the KTTH line up makes much sense, I don't think that brings anything to either station and probably muddies the branding of both of them.

Don't overthink things. PPM or diary, good programming wins. Mediocre programming is 20th.

 

[KFNNradioFan]

Another option is to move the AM 850 transmitters to the Sammamish Plateau and have a 50kW 6 tower array highly directional to the SW, protecting Denver, B.C., Quebec, Nome, Modesto, North Las Vegas, Utah, and Portland, yet covering the south 2/3 of Seattle, along with Tacoma (the city of license), and Olympia.

Of course, Clear Channel has no money for this major study, however Bonneville might be interested in an investment, as they are financially OK.

50kw going southwest? Grab a map, you know Portlans is SSW of Seattle, right?

So, you want to pump 50,000 watts into Shelton and into The Pacific Ocean?

Being "financially ok" is not a license to do something as ridiculous as you suggest.

Leaving all the other issues on the side, including the giggle factor, do you really think that people on the Sammamish Plateau would welcome a six-tower array?

The suggestion is for clear channel in debt to sell its AM 850 to financially afloat Bonneville. Then, Bonneville can increase profits with three formats:

1. the original N/T KIRO-AM
2. a lifestyle talk N/T KIRO-FM
3. Sports on an upgraded AM 850

Since 850 covers Federal Way and parts south, how about moving the towers to east of Lk. Sammamish. Then push the signal to the SW and you cover 2/3 of seattle w/o interfering w/ the Canada acquisition.

This is a feasible idea with the money. However I also mentioned this is expensive these days, so there is no need to criticize the concept. Why?-Radio stations are overvalued these days, especially the real estate. They will come down in value as media conglomerates have financial issues. And, as you point out, people will oppose AM towers even in areas where the ground conductivity is horrible, like the Sammamish plateau.

 

[KFNNradioFan]

I want some of what KFNNRadioFan is smoking.

I don't want some of what he is smoking. I prefer reality. I wonder what color is the sky in his world?

I've been around awhile and remember Bonneville's two separate news/talk formats on KIRO-AM and KIRO-FM 100.7 They complemented each other very well.

There are WAAAAY to many sports stations there - 710, 850, 950, 1380 (OTA?), 1520 (OTA?) Just ridiculous. And there is not one hot talk or lifestyle talk market on FM.

I think Bonneville does a good job with all of their stations. I am suggesting N/T return to 710, w/ KIRO-FM on 97.3 featuring lifestyle talk and hot talk. This FM stations could capture a younger demo much more efficiently than standard KIRO-AM N/T on FM. As for 850, it is a frequency with potential for upgrading during the day. So is 1180, Tacoma, 1210 Auburn, 1360 Dash Point, and many others. Sadly, due to consolidation and debt there is little money for upgrading of stations with 0.1 shares. When Mom and Pops owned stations, Tx sites were moved around and upgrades made all the time.

 

[HowardMBurgers]

Dude, we get that you really want KIRO to simulcast on 710 also so you can DX it again or whatever, but rest assured that isn't going to happen.

In order for KIRO to get the ESPN Radio affiliation away from Clear Channel Seattle and KRKO, Everett, KIRO had to commit (via contract) that they would carry X-amount of programming and commercials from the network. Chances are the contract runs for 1-5 years, but who knows what was committed to.

No radio station on this planet, especially in this economy, would agree to take the huge financial and PR penalties to switch back formats just because a handful of listeners, in your case outside the market, think they should.

Time to get over it and move on people.

 

[AQH]

When Mom and Pops owned stations, Tx sites were moved around and upgrades made all the time.

Can you cite some specific examples of this?