• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Boston Radio Ratings February 2021

Spoiler alert: Between 5 squared and the New York disco Studio BLANK, WBZ-AM would be the first item which David Letterman would read in his lists. WRKO is not to be found on said list.
Assuming my middle-aged memory hasn't failed me...You, Sir...are Incorrect!

In the David Letterman Show Top 10 Lists, the first item read by Mr. Letterman would be #10, working his way up from there.

In that case...you would be saying that WBZ-AM is in tenth place...which I don't think you meant to say.

That's what you get for trying to be too cute and obscure!:p:D
 
Obviously, his programming recipe isn't "going over" too well. I do not need to hear 8 to 10 mentions an hour, every hour, for weeks on end about the "Two Minute Promise." I also do not need my music interrupted four times an hour for commercial spots.
That is a corporate policy for the format, over which the local PD has no call.
At some point, results matter. Should I simply disregard the lengthy list of major market stations under his programming command with terrible ratings? Said individual may be out of touch with his target audience.
Actually, his stations did well in their targets and in sales.
I didn't attend a Research Triangle university in North Carolina, but I do hold a BBA from a university whose undergrad business program has long been considered one of the best ten in the entire country (and when I was a student, was consistently considered top three).
I was the COO of a group operation whose owner refused to hire anyone with a college degree in broadcasting of advertising. He said that they all came in thinking they knew more than he did. He had 5 regional networks, and one of them had around a 15 share in 18-49 for over 25 years... so he knew what he was doing and who he was hiring.
 
I likely misidentified the person referenced earlier; I assumed the earlier references were to Mike Kaplan or Michael Martin.

In the case of Audacy's pile of mediocrity known as "Alt," the fact the local PD has no call over something as important as commercial break placement is a bit disappointing. Is such a practice common?
 
I likely misidentified the person referenced earlier; I assumed the earlier references were to Mike Kaplan or Michael Martin.

In the case of Audacy's pile of mediocrity known as "Alt," the fact the local PD has no call over something as important as commercial break placement is a bit disappointing. Is such a practice common?
Yes. And sadly, it has been for many years.
 
I likely misidentified the person referenced earlier; I assumed the earlier references were to Mike Kaplan or Michael Martin.

In the case of Audacy's pile of mediocrity known as "Alt," the fact the local PD has no call over something as important as commercial break placement is a bit disappointing. Is such a practice common?
Yes, it is a general practice.

And change in quarter hour maintenance practices will generally be worked on with the national PD, the national format manager if there is one, the national research director and management.

Commercial placement is done today in PPM markets to guarantee that minimum of 5 discreet minute detections anywhere in the quarter hour. So placement of stopsets is critical to get as many of the little pieces that give the full QH. Since analysis of the PPM data is rather complex, there is generally someone in each company
Yes. And sadly, it has been for many years.
For most formats determining formats is up to the owner, not the staff... who may make suggestions. Just as filing for a power increase and antenna site move is not made just by the chief engineer or changes in rates and commissions are not just made by the sales manager.

This has been true for a half a century or more. You don't think that some local manager at RKO General decided to hired Drake and Jacobs all on their own, do you? It was a corporate level decision... in this case, suggested by an RKO board member who had radio experience in another market. It started at the very top, but once the decision was made, they gave the programmers total authority within the determined plan. That was in the mid-60's!

And in the 50's, you don't think that McLendon, Storz, Burden, Kluge and others didn't want to approve every detail of what their stations did?
 
Commercial placement is done today in PPM markets to guarantee that minimum of 5 discreet minute detections anywhere in the quarter hour.

When the sole source of revenue is the commercial, and that revenue pays the salaries of all staff and affects the entire station, the more people you can involve in that decision, the better. The 2-minute promise was not a one-person decision. Programming people were involved. I hear people ask all the time, "Don't they know that people tune out when the commercials start?" Of course they do. But without commercials, no one gets paid. Who wants that responsibility? Unless you have a better idea that will increase revenue, you stay out of that conversation. Because if you make a bad decision, and it costs the station money, you get fired. Is that what you want? No.

To listeners, spot breaks are bad. To employees, spot breaks are a necessity. Sales and programming are involved here. And it helps if the programming people understand the sales process. There are lots of ways to approach sales. You can sell the audience numbers. Pretty cut and dried. The more audience a station has, the more they can charge for the commercials. But there's another way to sell. You can sell QUALITY. In the old days, classical radio stations did that. They may not be #1 in ratings, but their audience was #1 in buying of luxury items. So they sold jewelry stores and Mercedes dealers. You can sell LIFESTYLE. That's what they do with alternative. It's not the biggest audience, but the people who like alternative have an identifiable lifestyle of products you can sell. This is where event sales come in. If you're the PD, you know some things about your station's audience that may not show up in the research. If so, you can contribute to the conversation. But once again, the conversation is about revenue, not music selection. So it's a different part of the brain. How much time does a local PD spend thinking about increasing revenue? That's why the placement of the spot breaks is so complicated.
 
Last edited:
This has been true for a half a century or more. You don't think that some local manager at RKO General decided to hired Drake and Jacobs all on their own, do you? It was a corporate level decision... in this case, suggested by an RKO board member who had radio experience in another market. It started at the very top, but once the decision was made, they gave the programmers total authority within the determined plan. That was in the mid-60's!

And in the 50's, you don't think that McLendon, Storz, Burden, Kluge and others didn't want to approve every detail of what their stations did?
No question, it has been the practice in some groups - and some formats - forever and a day. I also didn't make myself clear in the "sadly" comment, though, that I wasn't referring specifically to spot cluster placement. The "sadly" referred to group imposition of playlists, formatics, promotions and other station elements, which might not perform best in a market when local considerations are taken seriously.

TBH, though, I wouldn't compare most of today's national PDs and format captains with Bill Drake or any of the other giants. A few, naturally, are terrific. However, many (including several who I worked with, who had no interest in what the market was like) insisted on rigid adherence to every minor programming element and detail as dictated from on high, with no discussion permitted even though the local PD might have known the market's peculiarities for decades. The one who I most appreciated working with wanted me, for example, to do A - but I guaranteed him that B was right for the market. He told me "OK, but you'd better be right if you want to stay here." (Thankfully, I was right - but then again, I knew I was before I stuck my neck out. We worked great together after that.)

I wasn't radio-sentient in the days of McLendon and Storz, but my understanding is that each station's implementation was adjusted for the market's individuality. And I wouldn't put Drake into a category with anyone else; if I had been working at a Drake station (I wish I had had the chance; I was still in school during his heyday), I would have brushed my teeth at 6:17 and taken a dump at 10:43, if he thought that was best.
 
No question, it has been the practice in some groups - and some formats - forever and a day. I also didn't make myself clear in the "sadly" comment, though, that I wasn't referring specifically to spot cluster placement. The "sadly" referred to group imposition of playlists, formatics, promotions and other station elements, which might not perform best in a market when local considerations are taken seriously.
Most format mechanics, rotations, song placements and the like have to do with ratings, not local interests. Those don't change by market.

And playlists are becoming more universal as time goes by due to the instant and totally non-geographic influence of the web.

The issue, nationally, with promotions reflects the fact that the United States is by far the most litigious society in the world. So stations are very much precluded from doing many "spontaneous" promotions without talking to either the groups in-house attorney or outside counsel. This really slows down the process and makes spur of the moment stuff hard to achieve. While some smaller groups may have faster turn around or greater risk tolerance, we are all conscious of the "Hold your wee for a Wi" type of liability.
TBH, though, I wouldn't compare most of today's national PDs and format captains with Bill Drake or any of the other giants. A few, naturally, are terrific. However, many (including several who I worked with, who had no interest in what the market was like) insisted on rigid adherence to every minor programming element and detail as dictated from on high, with no discussion permitted even though the local PD might have known the market's peculiarities for decades.
I agree with local input on some measures. For example, a Houston station that is not country might give input to the corporate person about how ample the acceptance of the rodeo there is each year. That type of thing should be part of the localizing of a station where it can be done within the company guidances.
The one who I most appreciated working with wanted me, for example, to do A - but I guaranteed him that B was right for the market. He told me "OK, but you'd better be right if you want to stay here." (Thankfully, I was right - but then again, I knew I was before I stuck my neck out. We worked great together after that.)
One of my interesting cases had to do with the "Bridal Fair" sales promotion done back in the 60's and 70's. At a station I was associated with, the corporate head wanted to do it at the station I was managing... which was their only Spanish language station. I tried to explain that in our community, "June Brides" and June weddings were not a thing because in much of Latin America, June was about the hottest, wettest and uncomfortable month.

It took some convincing, but we came up with an even better promotion that helped traditionally slow January and February by doing specials for "First Weddings of the Year" and it generated sales from a category we had never had luck with before.
I wasn't radio-sentient in the days of McLendon and Storz, but my understanding is that each station's implementation was adjusted for the market's individuality. And I wouldn't put Drake into a category with anyone else; if I had been working at a Drake station (I wish I had had the chance; I was still in school during his heyday), I would have brushed my teeth at 6:17 and taken a dump at 10:43, if he thought that was best.
I had the good fortune to get the "speed course" in Top 40 from Todd Storz himself just days before his death. What I learned in three or four hours was amazing. In management, he told me that it was easier to sell #1 than #10 so spend my best time on programming.

Today, particularly with the publicly traded companies, the focus is all bottom-line and very short-term. Nobody thinks months and even years ahead. Even in ratings, many look at minutes and seconds and quarter hours, not at hours, days and weeks.

I never worked with Drake, but did work with both Tom Rounds and Ron Jacobs. We have to remember that back in the mid-60's ratings were not split by dozens of demographics and agencies bought total numbers, not targets. It was a different world.
 
Most format mechanics, rotations, song placements and the like have to do with ratings, not local interests. Those don't change by market.

And playlists are becoming more universal as time goes by due to the instant and totally non-geographic influence of the web.

The issue, nationally, with promotions reflects the fact that the United States is by far the most litigious society in the world. So stations are very much precluded from doing many "spontaneous" promotions without talking to either the groups in-house attorney or outside counsel. This really slows down the process and makes spur of the moment stuff hard to achieve. While some smaller groups may have faster turn around or greater risk tolerance, we are all conscious of the "Hold your wee for a Wi" type of liability.
Understood. But here's a hypothetical: mechanics, etc. are dictated by corporate. In one market, though, the listening patterns are different, because most of the community's major employers operate factories where shifts begin at 6:30am and 3:30pm - meaning AM and PM drive don't coincide with the group's mandated format clocks. Shouldn't the local management have the ability to rework the clocks, in order to synchronize with the schedules of the vast majority of the audience?

I agree with local input on some measures. For example, a Houston station that is not country might give input to the corporate person about how ample the acceptance of the rodeo there is each year. That type of thing should be part of the localizing of a station where it can be done within the company guidances.

One of my interesting cases had to do with the "Bridal Fair" sales promotion done back in the 60's and 70's. At a station I was associated with, the corporate head wanted to do it at the station I was managing... which was their only Spanish language station. I tried to explain that in our community, "June Brides" and June weddings were not a thing because in much of Latin America, June was about the hottest, wettest and uncomfortable month.

It took some convincing, but we came up with an even better promotion that helped traditionally slow January and February by doing specials for "First Weddings of the Year" and it generated sales from a category we had never had luck with before.
That's the type of thing I'm talking about. These days, I don't know that most groups would work with you that way, even if it made nothing but complete sense. At least, not the group format leaders I've known.

It makes me appreciate the time I spent working for a small group, whose corporate boss was two doors down from mine.

Our cluster owned the rights to most of the major events in the city, and being able to make my case directly to the group head made things much easier.
For example, when I got there our heritage news/talker had an audience only slightly more desirable than that of our MOYL station. (I got there shortly before the MOYL station had its scheduled lifestyle event, and was horrified to discover that the big giveaway was a microwave oven, courtesy of the local cremation service. An eye-opening welcome to the cluster, needless to say.)
The N/T station had no exposure to younger demos whatsoever, even though I'd retargeted the programming to skew younger. A key was that I was able to place some dynamite under the "it's the way we always do it" philosophy after convincing the group head that I wasn't crazy.
- I got approval for the N/T station to "sponsor" some of the summer concert series (the shows with 25-54 targeted artists), for the first time.
- All of the stations did big promo events linked in with the state's major summer holiday, and the N/T station was always cemented in for a concert by the Navy band (you can imagine who showed up for that). I got the N/T station a much larger portion of the budget, hired an Elton John impersonator and (after running the details through legal), leaked the possibility that Elton was going to be there, with vague (and legal promos) to match. The buzz was phenomenal, and the crowd was 100 times larger than usual.
- A local car dealership gave the N/T station one car to give away each year, in conjunction with the college basketball broadcasts - which produced very little benefit to the station. I got the dealership and the group head (he was a tougher sell) to let me use it instead for a month-long, state-wide promotion, supported with billboards, that ended up in a day-long citywide scavenger hunt, loosely modeled after Dave Barry's original scavenger hunt in Miami. Thousands participated, many of them young.

Bottom line, by the following year, we had our best 12+ numbers in years, good 25-54 numbers for the first time in decades, and even were making a dent in 18-34. I honestly think that in today's group-dominated world, it never would have been possible.
I had the good fortune to get the "speed course" in Top 40 from Todd Storz himself just days before his death. What I learned in three or four hours was amazing. In management, he told me that it was easier to sell #1 than #10 so spend my best time on programming.

Today, particularly with the publicly traded companies, the focus is all bottom-line and very short-term. Nobody thinks months and even years ahead. Even in ratings, many look at minutes and seconds and quarter hours, not at hours, days and weeks.

I never worked with Drake, but did work with both Tom Rounds and Ron Jacobs. We have to remember that back in the mid-60's ratings were not split by dozens of demographics and agencies bought total numbers, not targets. It was a different world.
Needless to say, I'm phenomenally jealous (and no question about the difference between the mid-60s and the 80s/90s, let alone now). I often wish I had a time machine; being able to pick the brains of people like Storz, Rounds and Jacobs would be one of the things I would love to do with it.
 
Understood. But here's a hypothetical: mechanics, etc. are dictated by corporate. In one market, though, the listening patterns are different, because most of the community's major employers operate factories where shifts begin at 6:30am and 3:30pm - meaning AM and PM drive don't coincide with the group's mandated format clocks. Shouldn't the local management have the ability to rework the clocks, in order to synchronize with the schedules of the vast majority of the audience?
No. Because PPM ratings work on "winning" quarter hours by getting 5 discreet minutes in a quarter hour, and in the diary by getting 5 consecutive minutes. In each case, the 1/4 hour is credited to your station, whether it be at 6 AM or 6 PM or whenever. Winning the ratings is based on getting as many quarter hour credits as possible, and a station is programmed for quarter hour maintenance throughout hours, shifts and days.
That's the type of thing I'm talking about. These days, I don't know that most groups would work with you that way, even if it made nothing but complete sense. At least, not the group format leaders I've known.
I can't think of any market where there is that degree of standardization in work shifts that it would make changing formatics of any kind for some blue collar workers when doing that might jeopardize the larger number of white collar and retail / service industry folks.
It makes me appreciate the time I spent working for a small group, whose corporate boss was two doors down from mine.
On the other hand, the "good" bigger groups have a lot more resources, such as real researchers and former Arbitron / Nielsen employees that can help figure out what is a wobble, what is a sample issue and what is your station's emerging problem.
Our cluster owned the rights to most of the major events in the city, and being able to make my case directly to the group head made things much easier.
I see plenty of the groups like Saga and Summit and Townsquare that do very localized programming in each market. On the other hand, some of the groups see the model from Europe and Latin America where stations are national, with the best there is in the whole country.
For example, when I got there our heritage news/talker had an audience only slightly more desirable than that of our MOYL station. (I got there shortly before the MOYL station had its scheduled lifestyle event, and was horrified to discover that the big giveaway was a microwave oven, courtesy of the local cremation service. An eye-opening welcome to the cluster, needless to say.)
I am tempted to say something "distasteful" but I'll refrain.
Needless to say, I'm phenomenally jealous (and no question about the difference between the mid-60s and the 80s/90s, let alone now). I often wish I had a time machine; being able to pick the brains of people like Storz, Rounds and Jacobs would be one of the things I would love to do with it.
In plenty of companies, plans like the one you described are still doable... it is just that nobody is doing that sort of thing because of the pandemic.

In addition to Storz, working briefly with Jacobs, and over 20 years with TR I interned under Ramiro Garza in 1963. Garza did the programming for the Radio Centro group in Mexico City, five formats, each "primera en su tipo" or "#1 in its style". I learned, 30 years before consolidation and duopoly in the US, how to run many stations in the market and to have them benefit from the synergy that existed.
 
No. Because PPM ratings work on "winning" quarter hours by getting 5 discreet minutes in a quarter hour, and in the diary by getting 5 consecutive minutes. In each case, the 1/4 hour is credited to your station, whether it be at 6 AM or 6 PM or whenever. Winning the ratings is based on getting as many quarter hour credits as possible, and a station is programmed for quarter hour maintenance throughout hours, shifts and days.

To that end - wouldn't programming at least four distinct commercial breaks each hour (as many "Alt" stations do) be counterproductive?

As I've written elsewhere - I hate how this approach sounds on the air. On top of the frequent commercial breaks, I have to hear frontsells and backsells surrounding every single one of those breaks telling me about the "two minute promise." That alone adds 2 to 3 minutes worth of clutter hourly. At additional times during the hour, there are separate mentions (between songs) about the "two minute promise." So, it is completely possible to hear the phrase "two minute promise" at least 10 times an hour, every hour. It is fatiguing and serves to make an already difficult listening experience - because of the current state of the Alternative format - even worse.
 
FWIW, I actually do not mind the 2 minute concept. Chances are I will listen to both commercials, just as long as it is not any longer than that at all. If they abuse it, like YouTube kinda does with their free service, then if would be very counter productive instead.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom