Bottom of the hour ID

[K6JHU]

Hi,

Does anybody remember what the FCC rule is for bottom of the hour ID? I seem to reember it as call + city of license (similar to top of the hour) but plus or minus two minutes (as oppsed to one minute at the top of the hour).

 

[ISUcyclone]

There is no bottom-of the hour ID. You only need to ID at the top of the hour, call + community of license. There is no requirement for the legal ID to be withing X minutes of the hour, but the ID is required to be as close to the top of the hour consistent with natural breaks in programming.

 

[amfmsw]

When I began in the early '70's, the station I worked did top and bottom hour ID's. However we took liberties the bottom hour ID. It was usually a throw away with the news or weather. Top of hour was a dramatic stager.

 

[nmoore6676]

Back then (in the 70's and before) the rules were rather more complicated, calling for ID's at the top and bottom of the hour, within a two minute window surrounding the times, if I recall correctly. The only exceptions was for programming which could not be broken, like classical music, but you couldn't get around that just by starting something right before the window began, you had to start it after an ID was given within the window.

Now most stations us imaging names which are used constantly, and the legal ID gets buried at the top of the hour where you have to pick it out of all the hype. Also the rim shots near a major city usually include the big city name after the city of license, as required, but the major city is always louder and more prominent

 

[CW]

Back then (in the 70's and before) the rules were rather more complicated, calling for ID's at the top and bottom of the hour, within a two minute window surrounding the times, if I recall correctly. The only exceptions was for programming which could not be broken, like classical music, but you couldn't get around that just by starting something right before the window began, you had to start it after an ID was given within the window.

Now most stations us imaging names which are used constantly, and the legal ID gets buried at the top of the hour where you have to pick it out of all the hype. Also the rim shots near a major city usually include the big city name after the city of license, as required, but the major city is always louder and more prominent

AFAIK, there was NEVER a bottom of the hour ID requirement in the 70s (sure wasnt in the mid 70s when I was jocking and just starting in engineering..and I dont recall hearing one on local stations while a listener from 1970 on)...The rule for the TOH ID has always been within a certain time of the TOH (not sure if it has been changed over the years) Most stations today bury the ID now at :50 after......with a quick callsign and COL...which is not legal according to Part 73.....

 

[Robert Bass]

IIRC the time window was extended, if not eliminated. You just have to do it as close as you can, during a natural break. Kinda makes it difficult when you're doing a sports broadcast that has no natural break for almost a half hour, with a delay in place from remotes over the Internet.

R

 

[nmoore6676]

AFAIK, there was NEVER a bottom of the hour ID requirement in the 70s

I am sure that there was a requirement at the bottom of the hour because when I was a kid and there were still some network programming and for TV as well they always ID'd the stations on the hour and the half hour even for shows which ran an entire hour or more. When I used to DX on AM I always held my fingers that the signal wouldn't fade when those times came I needed to hear the ID to verify absolutely what station I had coming in. Also at the stations I worked at we always did the two ID's and that was prior to the 80's. After that I worked in cable TV so I lost track. Besides in the old days the call was an integral part of the identity and today the imaging name built around the frequency or channel number are used in most cases to trademark the station to listeners (viewers). I may remember the time window which might have come from management rather than the FCC to be sure it got run at the appropriate time.

 

[CW]

IIRC the time window was extended, if not eliminated. You just have to do it as close as you can, during a natural break. Kinda makes it difficult when you're doing a sports broadcast that has no natural break for almost a half hour, with a delay in place from remotes over the Internet.

R

Piisshhh!!! Cmon Robert, its not that hard to say KEOM, Mesquite is it??? Takes less than ONE second to say a legal ID..MOST remotes will do that anyway "Lets take time out for station identification, This is the Cowboy Radio Network"

I'll have to go look at Part 73 but Im pretty sure the time window is still there....+/- 5 mins from the Top of the Hour....
I hear the "we cant do it during our program" arugment all the time......its invalid and moot...4-6 letters and a city's name?
(How long would it take anyone to say "Dallas-Fort Worth" ? less than 1/2 sec.....1 sec if you're SLLLLOOOOWWWW
Any station who cannot find 3-5 secs to get their legal TOH out is full of themselves and should be fined..

 

[Robert Bass]

Piisshhh!!! Cmon Robert, its not that hard to say KEOM, Mesquite is it??? Takes less than ONE second to say a legal ID..MOST remotes will do that anyway "Lets take time out for station identification, This is the Cowboy Radio Network"

1. Our legal ID is 10 seconds

2. When you're doing a remote where there is a delay caused by internet lag or Codec cell phone (the last one doesn't exist anymore, thanks to AT&T), it's impossible to give the sports guys a cue to send it back for a station ID and then rejoin them seamlessly,

R

 

[ISUcyclone]

There is no time requirement:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...cess.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/47cfr73.1201.htm

From 47 CFR 73.1201


(a) When regularly required. Broadcast station identification
announcements shall be made:
(1) At the beginning and ending of each time of operation, and
(2) Hourly, as close to the hour as feasible, at a natural break in
program offerings. Television and Class A television broadcast stations
may make these announcements visually or aurally.

etc...

For a sports broadcast the legal ID can be made during the closest commercial break or done directly by the announcer. Also, no delay is going to be long enough that it would make any fundamental difference. 15 seconds maybe (20 if you're running HD).

 

[Robert Bass]

There is no time requirement:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...cess.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/47cfr73.1201.htm

From 47 CFR 73.1201


(a) When regularly required. Broadcast station identification
announcements shall be made:
(1) At the beginning and ending of each time of operation, and
(2) Hourly, as close to the hour as feasible, at a natural break in
program offerings. Television and Class A television broadcast stations
may make these announcements visually or aurally.

etc...

For a sports broadcast the legal ID can be made during the closest commercial break or done directly by the announcer. Also, no delay is going to be long enough that it would make any fundamental difference. 15 seconds maybe (20 if you're running HD).

HA! I was just about to post that information regarding station ID's. Ya beat me to it! ;D

To understand how the delay can be a problem, you must have an understanding of how the remote equipment works. Even though this service is no longer available in the U.S., let's look at the problems a delay can create with respect to running the legal ID during a sports broadcast, when using a wireless cell phone Codec.

Unlike POTS line Codecs such as the Comrex Matrix / Vector systems, wireless Codecs have a delay anywhere from 8 to 12 seconds. Let's say in this example, the delay is 10 seconds. Now let's say I give the sportscasters a cue to send it back for the ID. It will take 10 seconds for them to hear my cue. Then when they actually give the cue, it will be 10 seconds before I hear it. Then when I fire the ID, it will be 10 seconds before they hear it. Thus, it creates a bit of confusion for the sportscasters, because of the round trip delay time of 20 seconds!

R

 

[CW]

There is no time requirement:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...cess.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/47cfr73.1201.htm

From 47 CFR 73.1201


(a) When regularly required. Broadcast station identification
announcements shall be made:
(1) At the beginning and ending of each time of operation, and
(2) Hourly, as close to the hour as feasible, at a natural break in
program offerings. Television and Class A television broadcast stations
may make these announcements visually or aurally.

etc...

For a sports broadcast the legal ID can be made during the closest commercial break or done directly by the announcer. Also, no delay is going to be long enough that it would make any fundamental difference. 15 seconds maybe (20 if you're running HD).

HA! I was just about to post that information regarding station ID's. Ya beat me to it! ;D

To understand how the delay can be a problem, you must have an understanding of how the remote equipment works. Even though this service is no longer available in the U.S., let's look at the problems a delay can create with respect to running the legal ID during a sports broadcast, when using a wireless cell phone Codec.

Unlike POTS line Codecs such as the Comrex Matrix / Vector systems, wireless Codecs have a delay anywhere from 8 to 12 seconds. Let's say in this example, the delay is 10 seconds. Now let's say I give the sportscasters a cue to send it back for the ID. It will take 10 seconds for them to hear my cue. Then when they actually give the cue, it will be 10 seconds before I hear it. Then when I fire the ID, it will be 10 seconds before they hear it. Thus, it creates a bit of confusion for the sportscasters, because of the round trip delay time of 20 seconds!

R

Evidently the rule was changed in Oct of 2006....last time I looked, the time requirement was still there...
As to doing an ID, the remote person can do the ID....nothing says it has to be done at the studio....WHat I am trying to get across is:

Football game, etc......game play game play game play, Banter between color and commentator.....then one of them says: KXYZ Bumuck...
There! The ID is done in less than a second.....who said you HAVE to go back to the studio for it.....noone....
The TOH is merely the callsign and COL.......period.....can be said by ANYONE in the program.....just as long as its near the TOH......doing 10 secs for an ID because delay? Yeah I can see wasting the time but thats because you want the studios to play the ID and cue back to the remote? Nothing in the rules says it has to be done that way....In fact a number of remotes I did, we did exactly that...the remote talent did the ID of the station in the middle of conversation.....no biggie...

 

[Robert Bass]

Football game, etc......game play game play game play, Banter between color and commentator.....then one of them says: KXYZ Bumuck...
There! The ID is done in less than a second.....who said you HAVE to go back to the studio for it.....noone....
The TOH is merely the callsign and COL.......period.....can be said by ANYONE in the program.....just as long as its near the TOH......doing 10 secs for an ID because delay? Yeah I can see wasting the time but thats because you want the studios to play the ID and cue back to the remote? Nothing in the rules says it has to be done that way....In fact a number of remotes I did, we did exactly that...the remote talent did the ID of the station in the middle of conversation.....no biggie...

Our sports guys are EXTREMELY busy as it is. Having to ask them do the ID live, just adds more to their plate. Besides, it's good to fire it from the studio so it gets logged by the automation system. Also, KEOM's legal ID is in the form of a sweeper, which Blake Lindsay put together for us. It says a little more than just the calls and COL. Also, you ever listen to Rangers games on KRLD? They are using the same source audio that all the Rangers Radio Network affiliates use. When Eric gives the cue that says something like "Let's pause 10 seconds for our affiliates to run station identification", guess what comes over that network feed during those 10 seconds... crowd noise.

R

 

[semoochie]

In answer to the original question, the FCC used to require a half-hour ID. One station I worked for gave them throughout the 70s and beyond! I think it may have been changed at the same time FM simulcasts were limited to 50% of their AM counterparts or around 1969.

 

[w9wi]

In answer to the original question, the FCC used to require a half-hour ID. One station I worked for gave them throughout the 70s and beyond! I think it may have been changed at the same time FM simulcasts were limited to 50% of their AM counterparts or around 1969.

As of Sept. 1st, 1965, 73.117(a) read as follows:

A licensee of a standard broadcast station shall make station identification announcement (call letters and location) at the beginning and ending of each time of operation and during operation (1) on the hour and (2) eithe ron the half hour or at the quarter hour preceding the next hour: Provided.

(and then it gives the exceptions for interrupting a sporting event/concert/etc..)

It went on to specify:

• The hourly ID did not need to be given on the hour if it would interrupt a single consecutive item (play, concert, etc.) in which case the ID was to be given at the beginning and end of the program and at the first break in continuity. Note that using this exception required that the station give three IDs, not just one.
• The half-hour ID did not need to be given on the half-hour if it would interrupt a single consecutive item, in which case the ID was to be given at the first break in continuity and at the end of the program. Note that using this exception required that the station give two IDs, not just one. The rule also specified that an ID given within 5 minutes of the "right" time was counted as "on the half-hour". This 5-minute grace period was not specified for the hourly ID.
• For variety shows of more than a half-hour in length, a 5-minute grace period was specified.
• For all other programs, a 2-minute grace period was specified.

73.117 applied only to AM stations, but there was essentially identical wording in 73.287 for FM. Strangely enough, the rule was different for TV, with no half-hour ID required.

I would believe a 1969 date for the modern legal ID rules.

 

[CW]

In answer to the original question, the FCC used to require a half-hour ID. One station I worked for gave them throughout the 70s and beyond! I think it may have been changed at the same time FM simulcasts were limited to 50% of their AM counterparts or around 1969.

Evidently the FCC DID require BOH IDs in the 60s...but NOT in the 70s and later as I originally stated (as Asst Chief of a major AM at the time and also weekend jock, we only did TOH...and did the STL ID at 4am in the morning!)
Thanks also to W9WI.

 

[Robert Bass]

I would believe a 1969 date for the modern legal ID rules.

I wouldn't. The latest rules that were posted previously, can be found at the FCC's website www.fcc.gov.

R

 

[robgrayson]

As of when I took the FCC test in late 1971, there was still a bottom of the hour ID requirement. By the mid 70's these were gone.
There were also fairly stringent meter reading requirements. Operation of high power FM's and AM's, along with directional AM's was restricted to First Class license holders.

 

[davideduardo]

• • For all other programs, a 2-minute grace period was specified.

  
  73.117 applied only to AM stations, but there was essentially identical wording in 73.287 for FM. Strangely enough, the rule was different for TV, with no half-hour ID required.
  
  I would believe a 1969 date for the modern legal ID rules.

  
  The half-hour ID was gone by '69, but the two-minute rule on top of hour ID was around quite a bit more before becoming the "natural break" rule was implemented. I got cited in 1971 for ID outside the 2-minute rule, in fact.