BREAKING NEWS! THE REAL REASON WHY WGN HAS DROPPED HD-AM

[Savage]

Well now, David, by your own admission: HD isn't helping deter or delay what you insistently refer to as "AM's death." Taking all of the posts here together including your own, HD-AM Radio figures somewhere between "irrelevancy" and "extremely harmful" when it comes to AM's fortunes these days in the competitive radio marketplace. The best-case scenario is that HD isn't helping. The worst case is, it's driving audiences away and is preventing major AM signals from getting the Arbitron credit they deserve because of PPM interference.

Contrast these unfavorable outcomes with the outlandish blue-sky claims made for HD Radio for five years now - that HD was necessary to "save" AM (and FM for that matter) radio. That "the future of radio is digital." That "sound quality will sound the death knell of AM." And so forth. Everyone knows the ridiculous arguments.

All this being said: what's the justification for the expense and endless problems imposed by HD Radio? At best it doesn't seem to be making any difference for AM. According to....YOU. As well as many others. So isn't it time to send this system to the dumpster, where it belongs?

 

[davideduardo]

All this being said: what's the justification for the expense and endless problems imposed by HD Radio? At best it doesn't seem to be making any difference for AM. According to....YOU. As well as many others. So isn't it time to send this system to the dumpster, where it belongs?

It's really a case of whether we should send AM to the dumpster. Because HD did not move fast enough, station owners have increasingly been moving the news talk formats to FM, where they produce amazing growth in 35-54, which is actually salable. As we see stations like WTOP, WIBC, KSL, KIRO, KTAR, KCBS either move to FM or begin simulcasts, it's pretty obvious that the major stations, producing most of the AM shares today, are going to abandon the band over the next few years.

In the present economy, I think clusters with a low performing FM and a heritage, high rated (even if mostly 55+) AM will start moving the intellectual property of the AM to the FM. And the AM will become a secondary format, or dedicate itself to the sale of colon cleansers.

HD was just too late in the game...and the delays in getting low power chips too long... for it to help AM.

 

[pocket-radio]

Are you also saying more FM’s will move away from music, favoring talk?

Is possible more talk formats will emerge, other than Rush, Hannity, Ingrham, conservative radicals, that adults 18-34 & 25-54 will have an interest in.

I agree HD is behind, the time for this was 10 yeas ago, other technologies will, and have provided consumers with better jukeboxes that today’s music FM formats. There’s a place for the technology, but not just to add more jukeboxes for the masses. Those days are slowly going away, sorry Inspector.

 

[KB1OKL]

All this being said: what's the justification for the expense and endless problems imposed by HD Radio? At best it doesn't seem to be making any difference for AM. According to....YOU. As well as many others. So isn't it time to send this system to the dumpster, where it belongs?

HD was just too late in the game...and the delays in getting low power chips too long... for it to help AM.

HD if anything is hurting it, the cure is far worse than any disease it may have, all it does is make a hissy noisy staticky mess of the band. I am now listening to the former CHWO 740 Toronto on a 1929 Majestic model 72 with a rolled up ball of wire on the floor for an antenna, (try that with an iBlock receiver) at 400 miles it comes in better here than WBZ does at 40 miles on an R-390A and also sounds much better. Every AM station that uses IBOC that I can pick up here in analog has lost it's punch, they all sound anemic and sick in analog like you're hearing them on a bad telephone line and they don't decode in iBlock on my exalted Sony.

 

[davideduardo]

Are you also saying more FM’s will move away from music, favoring talk?

Not "will" but "are."

Is possible more talk formats will emerge, other than Rush, Hannity, Ingrham, conservative radicals, that adults 18-34 & 25-54 will have an interest in.

There is no talk interest outside of goofymorning shows by under-35. The issue is that 35-54 is a core sales demo, while the AMs are increasingly getting 55+ because today's 35-54's grew up on FM, and have no use for AM.

Since most rated markets only have between 0 and 2 viable AM signals today (the most highly regarded industy source counts less than 250 viable AMs in the entire top 100 markets) that only means that a couple of formats (news / talk and sports, mostly) will need to move, as there aren't any more formats worth moving in most markets.

I agree HD is behind, the time for this was 10 yeas ago, other technologies will, and have provided consumers with better jukeboxes that today’s music FM formats. There’s a place for the technology, but not just to add more jukeboxes for the masses. Those days are slowly going away, sorry Inspector.

In the 25-54 demo, radio is still vastly more used than any other distribution medium. As people mature, they have less and less time for management of their music collection, and tend to share "music time" with the easiness of radio and their personal collections. In other words, radio has quite a few more years than people here predict, and during those years, radio will develop alternate distribution channels according to the devices people prefer to use.

AM, on the other hand, has no hope except to do very niche formats. Even the seeming niche formats, like Hindi, are on HD channels now (in this case, in quite a few markets).

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Gee - David - I thought you would chime in and rip my post to shreds! Are you mellowing a bit?!

And americanradiohistory.com is an awesome web site. Everybody ought to go and pay a visit!

 

[Savage]

Well, boys and girls, there you have it - courtesy of Mr. Fourteen Thousand Posts: the apocalyptic world view of the dwindling herd of HD Radio boosters. Because AM hasn't stampeded to adopt HD, it's condemned to death (by message-board savants, that is.) If only we had rushed to turn on Ibiquity Decepticons like obedient little lemmings - we'd be SAVED!

It's more of the interminable nonsense from the HD contingent: AM didn't "get" HD, so we're publicly damned to be "sent to the dumpster." Along with the tired-but-true: "Radio needs digital to survive." "We must 'push past' (all legitimate engineering concerns about HD) and embrace radio's digital future." "It's not about the programming, AM's problems are due to sound quality." And on and on.

Excuse me: HD Radio long ago whizzed past AM radio in the dumpster-bound express lane.

When the bitterly arrogant HD-types proffer the hemlock Big Gulp to AM broadcasters, I say: you first.
Don't blame me as you feel the first pangs of self-inflicted demise. You brought this on yourselves. AM radio operators - the ones who haven't trashed their stations with dopey HD, that is - will be profitably serving our listeners and advertisers long after the Alliance has disbanded, the NAB will have moved on to new and more perlexing ways to screw up radio and Ibiquity exciters will be dusty curiosities at your local Hamfest surplus sales tables.

As HD continues to unravel, behold their desperate promoters: standing on their heads, loudly comdemning the rest of the world because they think we've got it backwards and upside-down.

 

[davideduardo]

Gee - David - I thought you would chime in and rip my post to shreds! Are you mellowing a bit?!

Nah. I just realize that HD, like AM stereo before it, has become the classic rearrangement of deck chairs on the Titanic. AM was too far gone for salvation before the first receiver was tested, and a band that has more than half of its appeal in the geezer demos can not long survive competitively... with or without HD. So AM HD simply becomes as irrelavant as the band itsef.

There is a reason why Canada has moved 60% of it's AMs to FM, and why Mexico has begun an effort to move, if possible, all AMs to FM, starting last October. They know the band is antiquated and does not serve the younger two generations of the ppopulation.

So, on AM HD, I am simply moving on. I have no interest in the band or the system.

And americanradiohistory.com is an awesome web site. Everybody ought to go and pay a visit!

Thank you. It is still under development, with 2000 issues of broadcasting to be put up, and a section with the FCC rules by year dating to 1940 and another on key industry news for each year.

 

[Play Freebird]

There is a reason why Canada has moved 60% of it's AMs to FM, and why Mexico has begun an effort to move, if possible, all AMs to FM, starting last October. They know the band is antiquated and does not serve the younger two generations of the ppopulation.

So, on AM HD, I am simply moving on. I have no interest in the band or the system.

So can we count on your support for the BMC proposal -- or a similar plan -- to allow AM licensees to use abandoned spectrum in low-band VHF TV channels? (With an ample transition period before shutting down the existing MW facilities?)

I also appreciate the time and effort you've put into the radio history web site -- I learned about it just last week and I'm enjoying researching the history of several stations I've been curious about.

 

[Savage]

Yes, David - "credit where credit is due." americanradiohistory.com is a fantastic effort. Great job!

 

[Savage]

BTW, and appropriate of many of the posts on this board: this morning I received the periodic e-mail of offerings from (can't tell ya) Radio Brokers. For sale: a marvelous Class D West Virginia AM. Prominently described: "station has all-new HD equipment!"

ASKING price: $275.000. Make offer.

(Guess HD Radio is really working out well for THAT operator.)

 

[KB1OKL]

Don't blame me as you feel the first pangs of self-inflicted demise. You brought this on yourselves. AM radio operators - the ones who haven't trashed their stations with dopey HD, that is - will be profitably serving our listeners and advertisers long after the Alliance has disbanded, the NAB will have moved on to new and more perlexing ways to screw up radio and Ibiquity exciters will be dusty curiosities at your local Hamfest surplus sales tables.

You don't think we Hams are THAT stupid do you? ;D

 

[Play Freebird]

You don't think we Hams are THAT stupid do you?

Offer the seller $10 for the power supply and chassis! Of course, the IEC line cord could be reused as well.

Harris is already trying to unload "Certified Pre-Owned" AM I-Boxes which have been returned. Sorry, I meant to say Certified Pre-Owned DexStar SOLUTIONS.

I kid you not, this reads just like a sales pitch for a used car:

http://www.nprlabs.org/apre/PREC200...ADIO/FMTransmitters/DexstarPreOwned110606.pdf

Harris claims to replace several items before reselling, but what's amusing is that some of those are the parts like power cord, rack rails, and GPS that probably function perfectly well. It's the system that's beyond hope.

 

[clouseau]

KB,

Do you ever see the absurdity of where you come from in terms of actual radio reality? When you say...

... I am now listening to the former CHWO 740 Toronto on a 1929 Majestic model 72 with a rolled up ball of wire on the floor for an antenna,

Seriously. I assuming you don't have flourescent lights or SCR dimmers or much af any other common household items which screw up AM reception. I understand your passion and I RESPECT it, but C'mon. It's not about your blessed DXing. The average listener doesn't own an 80 year old radio and will not connect up a "Rolled up ball of wire" as an antenna.

at 400 miles it comes in better here than WBZ does at 40 miles on an R-390A and also sounds much better.

One is skywave and one is borderline groundwave. We get that effect here with WOAI. It's gone at night here, but clear in Missouri. Your premise is very flawed.

Every AM station that uses IBOC that I can pick up here in analog has lost it's punch, they all sound anemic and sick in analog like you're hearing them on a bad telephone line and they don't decode in iBlock on my exalted Sony.

Bob, the band has been changed. Stations have been added all over the dial. Stations like WYSL etc.. NIght service has been added on stations like WHLO in Akron and WTMR in Camden NJ. Patterns have been relaxed like WNTP-Philadelphia.

While I see your lament, it's NOT going back. We are where we are NOW.

Clouseau

 

[Carmine5]

You don't think we Hams are THAT stupid do you?

Offer the seller $10 for the power supply and chassis! Of course, the IEC line cord could be reused as well.

Harris is already trying to unload "Certified Pre-Owned" AM I-Boxes which have been returned. Sorry, I meant to say Certified Pre-Owned DexStar SOLUTIONS.

I kid you not, this reads just like a sales pitch for a used car:

http://www.nprlabs.org/apre/PREC200...ADIO/FMTransmitters/DexstarPreOwned110606.pdf

Harris claims to replace several items before reselling, but what's amusing is that some of those are the parts like power cord, rack rails, and GPS that probably function perfectly well. It's the system that's beyond hope.

Love that ad. "It's not new, it's not used - It's a special category in between." It's...neused(?!)

I guess it's not just the radios that are being returned but HD exciters as well. Is this the only way an AM station can get ROI on HD Radio equipment, when it's returned to the manufacturer? I'll bet its pennies on the dollar.

My question is: does the station get a return (or partial return) of it's license fee from Ibiquity? Seems only fair.

C5

 

[Play Freebird]

My question is: does the station get a return (or partial return) of it's license fee from Ibiquity? Seems only fair.

I doubt it. Their "fact sheet" says the license is perpetual:

http://www.ibiquity.com/i/pdfs/Licensing_ Fact_ Sheet_2008A.pdf

Article 6.4 of the broadcaster agreement spells out the "no refunds" policy. Their warranty expires 180 days after the deal is made, then it's your problem, kid:

http://www.ibiquity.com/i/pdfs/2008 Form SLA-B.pdf

 

[JohnnyElectron]

So, does WJR still have to pay iBiquity royalty fees even though the HD equipment has been off for some time?

 

[Tom Wells]

There's nothing absurd about using most AM radios that came after 1927.
They may be limited to 550-1500 khz, but they are in several respects superior to modern types.
Not all of them, there certainly were some cheaper auto-dyne types that performed poorly even then.
Majestic was one of the more expensive brands at the time.

I imagine that the Majestic has had at least a few parts replaced, and could be maintained almost forever.
Majestic used a LOT of shielding. Those things are HEAVY.

Is there anyone who thinks iboc will be functional in 80 years?

WGN still has the iboc off, and it seems they have the upper-end bass-to-low midrange up 2-3 db.
Some crispness has been restored since the return to analog-only, but it's still low-midrange-heavy.

 

[Carmine5]

My question is: does the station get a return (or partial return) of it's license fee from Ibiquity? Seems only fair.

I doubt it. Their "fact sheet" says the license is perpetual:

http://www.ibiquity.com/i/pdfs/Licensing_ Fact_ Sheet_2008A.pdf

Article 6.4 of the broadcaster agreement spells out the "no refunds" policy. Their warranty expires 180 days after the deal is made, then it's your problem, kid:

http://www.ibiquity.com/i/pdfs/2008 Form SLA-B.pdf

Silly me. I should have known.

The only thing a station owner can do is transfer the license when the station is sold. I guess, at that point, the fee can be factored into the sale price and recouped.

So, does WJR still have to pay iBiquity royalty fees even though the HD equipment has been off for some time?

No, it's just a one-time fee but it's steep - like 25K steep. And, as we just learned, it's non-refundable.

Of course, if the station buys into the yearly software upgrades and multicasts then it becomes the gift that keeps on giving...for Ibiquity.

C5

 

[Play Freebird]

There's nothing absurd about using most AM radios that came after 1927.
They may be limited to 550-1500 khz, but they are in several respects superior to modern types.

I just rebuilt a Stromberg-Carlson console unit that was designed in the mid-'50s. It has selectable AM IF bandwidth with a 10 kHz notch filter to knock down the adjacent channel carrier whistle, and sounds quite full even in narrow bandwidth because those LC IF transformers have reasonably gentle and symmetrical skirts. And there's just something musical about a push-pull 6L6 output stage, especially when the coupling caps have been replaced.

But I should clarify that it sounds its best on stations that don't run IBOC, otherwise signal/noise ratio is noticeably degraded and the audio response cuts off so sharply that I hear no improvement when I switch over to wideband mode -- only more noise, on account of the HISS-OLA scandal.

740 in Toronto puts a great signal into this area in early evening; it's nice to know some AM broadcasters still care about good audio.