BREAKING NEWS! THE REAL REASON WHY WGN HAS DROPPED HD-AM

[KB1OKL]

WLW was whooshing all over WOR last night here in Analog MA, great system that IBOC.

Of course the fact that WOR doesn't proport to serve your area at night is irrelevant to your point I suppose, right? The continued railing about problems with DX just don't carry any water as far as broadcasters seem to go.

Do you hear ads for Mass. Business on WOR?

Clouseau

NYC or NJ (where ever their towers are) is at least 600 miles closer to me than Cincinnati. Looks like a system that is at odds with skywave to me.
I heard WSM bragging last night about their coverage, 38 states and then some, nice to see a station that values their listeners. (WFAN's whoosh machine was off because of a game).

 

[clouseau]

WLW was whooshing all over WOR last night here in Analog MA, great system that IBOC.

NYC or NJ (where ever their towers are) is at least 600 miles closer to me than Cincinnati. Looks like a system that is at odds with skywave to me.

I would agree with that assessment overall. Clearly improved sound in NYC And Cincinatti takes precedence over your DXing in Worcester. Perhaps you should select one of the 26 local stations available in your area as per Radio Locator.

I heard WSM bragging last night about their coverage, 38 states and then some, nice to see a station that values their listeners. (WFAN's whoosh machine was off because of a game).

Does bragging about your coverage equate to "Caring about your listeners?". No one would fault WSM for the tradition and heritage they bring to their community. However "The times they are a changin'". I would guess the percentage of advertising bought Nationally (As in "To reach the whole nation") is VERY low if there's any.

Skywave is rapidly becomming a novelty. You think Regular radio listening is off? How about Skywave listening?

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

No, skywave is rapidly "becomming" an impossibility. Along with a lot of local listening. As in, "within licensed stations' NIF contours." Those would be: LOCAL stations, being obliterated by distant HD skywave.

Thanks to HD Radio. Engineering alchemy which generates no quantifiable benefit, causes undeniable harm even to its proponents who are too stupid to admit their mistake, and is profoundly, deeply irrelevant to radio listeners and advertisers. Easily the most self-defeating, divisive and destructive non-innovation in the history of the industry.

The "nobody listens to skywave" argument is a tiresome old, long-disproved and thoroughly-debunked HD talking point. Literally nobody believes that any more as a justification for HD's "license to jam" other than a select few head-in-sand message-board posters. And, yes, not that they will admit it publicly, but the FCC Enforcement Bureau has had many, many complaints about HD-AM interference at night. Perhaps once incompetent "Doogie Howser" Martin gets the boot from the new Administration, new leadership at the Commission will have an epiphany and the briefly stupid HD hissathon will be officially ended.

Disastrous adjacent-channel interference to LOCAL signals is why Clear Channel and Citadel and many others are voluntarily keeping their HD off at night. And why there are essenytially no new HD-AMs on at night, even after it was sanctioned by the FCC 16 months ago.

 

[clouseau]

No, skywave is rapidly "becomming" an impossibility. Along with a lot of local listening. As in, "within licensed stations' NIF contours." Those would be: LOCAL stations, being obliterated by distant HD skywave.

I won't refute that, but I don't necessarily agree with it either. I haven't seen or heard it. As in "Absence of observation" not to be confused with "Denail of occurance".

Thanks to HD Radio. Engineering alchemy which generates no quantifiable benefit, causes undeniable harm even to its proponents who are too stupid to admit their mistake, and is profoundly, deeply irrelevant to radio listeners and advertisers. Easily the most self-defeating, divisive and destructive non-innovation in the history of the industry.

Ok your frustrated, I get it...

The "nobody listens to skywave" argument is a tiresome old, long-disproved and thoroughly-debunked HD talking point. Literally nobody believes that any more as a justification for HD's "license to jam" other than a select few head-in-sand message-board posters.

I'll just smile and let that go... I still have yet to find this skywave listening actually showing up anywhere anymore. Back in the day, you had out of market signals showing up in ARBs. Not that I see anymore. I'd love to see an example that this skywave listening is anything more than a few "Head-in-sand" DXers with their wire balls and multi hundred dollar AM tuners. Here's my guideline. If you have a longwire antenna at your house, you're a dxer. Honestly, I USED to know people who listened to radio from far away. Not anymore.

And, yes, not that they will admit it publicly, but the FCC Enforcement Bureau has had many, many complaints about HD-AM interference at night. Perhaps once incompetent "Doogie Howser" Martin gets the boot from the new Administration, new leadership at the Commission will have an epiphany and the briefly stupid HD hissathon will be officially ended.

Well without feeling the need to break out a sitom, name calling reference, I would agree there should be a comprehensive way to "Fix" AM radio. And trust me, Bob, I do feel your pain. I have an LPTV. You think your AM has problems.You should see what the FCC has done to those folks. Of course in fairness I don't have even a tiny fraction of what you have at stake. If they were to cancel LPTV tomottow, I'd just be pissed. I suspect you've got a wee more at stake.

Disastrous adjacent-channel interference to LOCAL signals is why Clear Channel and Citadel and many others are voluntarily keeping their HD off at night. And why there are essenytially no new HD-AMs on at night, even after it was sanctioned by the FCC 16 months ago.

I suspect the impending demise of Citadel and the general state of the corporate radio industry has a little to do with it also.

Clouseau

 

[dxho]

WLW was whooshing all over WOR last night here in Analog MA, great system that IBOC.

Of course the fact that WOR doesn't proport to serve your area at night is irrelevant to your point I suppose, right? The continued railing about problems with DX just don't carry any water as far as broadcasters seem to go.

Do you hear ads for Mass. Business on WOR?

Clouseau

Yeah, "if you're not making us money, piss off". How is it ever good business or common sense to alienate real or potential listeners, especially now? I suppose it works if it makes your competitors harder to hear.

 

[davideduardo]

Yeah, "if you're not making us money, piss off". How is it ever good business or common sense to alienate real or potential listeners, especially now? I suppose it works if it makes your competitors harder to hear.

It is a truth that radio stations today make their revenue in the local market, not via skywave reception. Even the remaining big farm stations of the midwest, like WNAX and KRVN, make their revenue in daylight hours from the extend "farm metro."

On all levels, radio listening is much lighter after 7 PM than in the daytime 6 A to 6 P hours. 7 to Midnight have about a third of the average listeners that day hours do.

So, if a station, right or wrong, believes that something will enhance the local listening even if someone a hundred or so miles away does not get the same signal as before, the decision will be in favor of local listening.

In any case, how does a momentarily annoyed listener far outside the normal coverage area and market affect a station?

 

[KB1OKL]

OK, you're driving down the highway at 10:00 or 12:00 pm, you got the AM radio on as Jonathon Richman sang so many years ago. You're tired of the station you're listening to, you hit scan, what percentage of stations does it land on that are being received via skywave? At night the vast majority I would bet. A lot of people listen to talk shows at night, including your's truly sometimes. I think skywave is far from being dead. When an unsuspecting motorist lands next to an IBOC station where all he receives is a whooshy hissathon what does he think? Wow AM radio is sounding like doo doo, I wonder why? He of course doesn't know, understand, nor give a hoot if he does know about IBOC, all he knows is that AM radio's reception is getting worse, he blames it on the band, not on IBOC which is hissing all over the band at night. Another AM listener gone.

 

[KB1OKL]

In any case, how does a momentarily annoyed listener far outside the normal coverage area and market affect a station?

This is exactly the kind of self-centered thinking that can do over the air radio in. These listeners go to Satellite or computer. I would be nice to my listeners if I were a broadcaster, wait and see what happens when long range Wifi becomes a reality. Over the air radio is eating itself, you guys should be sticking together not ruining other people's signals just because you're (at this present time) a big boy. Big Boys fall hard.

 

[dxho]

Yeah, "if you're not making us money, piss off". How is it ever good business or common sense to alienate real or potential listeners, especially now? I suppose it works if it makes your competitors harder to hear.

...

So, if a station, right or wrong, believes that something will enhance the local listening even if someone a hundred or so miles away does not get the same signal as before, the decision will be in favor of local listening.

That appears to be a symptom of the new digital system. I thought the general point was greatest possible coverage. I also suspect the distances where interference occurs are probably smaller in the NE corridor and similar markets.

In any case, how does a momentarily annoyed listener far outside the normal coverage area and market affect a station?

When does it make sense to lose listeners?

 

[clouseau]

That appears to be a symptom of the new digital system. I thought the general point was greatest possible coverage.

You would think so, wouldn't you? But not so. Otherwise WBCQ shortwave would have more listeners than Z-100. After all, Z-100 only goes about 50-60 miles and WBCQ goes clear to South America. The "Quality" of the broadcasted signal has a lot to do with it.

When does it make sense to lose listeners?

If that were the case, we probably wouldn't have FM stereo. FM Mono sounds a LOT bettter on the deep fringe. Try it out...

Clouseau

 

[Tom Wells]

Yeah, "if you're not making us money, piss off". How is it ever good business or common sense to alienate real or potential listeners, especially now? I suppose it works if it makes your competitors harder to hear.

It is a truth that radio stations today make their revenue in the local market, not via skywave reception. Even the remaining big farm stations of the midwest, like WNAX and KRVN, make their revenue in daylight hours from the extend "farm metro."

On all levels, radio listening is much lighter after 7 PM than in the daytime 6 A to 6 P hours. 7 to Midnight have about a third of the average listeners that day hours do.

So, if a station, right or wrong, believes that something will enhance the local listening even if someone a hundred or so miles away does not get the same signal as before, the decision will be in favor of local listening.

In any case, how does a momentarily annoyed listener far outside the normal coverage area and market affect a station?

Hundred miles? The people one hundred miles away don't matter? Wow, that's callous.
Your market is what you make it. For a 50 kw AM non-d, 100 mile is still a local station here in the midwest.

"Normal" cannot be defined. Not for a listener. It can be quantized and metered for purposes of competition and advertising, but
the listeners do not know or care about such distinctions.

You make a great case for delivering audio by plain old telephone wires. So go ahead and do it already.
Just.. switch it off. You don't need radio when the ideal market-based delivery system is hard-wired. It would enhance the local listening.

You could sell smog to tourists at the Grand Canyon with logic like that. It would enhance the local viewing, without so much distraction of having
to see things on the other side of the canyon. Following on this course of logic, the best radio mode would be the one with the most gee-whiz tech whether it works or not, gives full digital bi-directional linking, reports when you stop what you're doing to listen to spot, contacts the advertiser to call you directly, gives full 5.1 digital theatre audio of the voice-only format, and can only be picked up within a stone's throw of the tower.

Sounds prety much like a wi-fi internet audio delivery system to me, not radio.

What makes you think the local listeners haven't been annoyed for the last umpteen months with the iboc on?
I've asked more than a few people here in Chicagoland, and they were quite annoyed, thank you very much.

 

[davideduardo]

In any case, how does a momentarily annoyed listener far outside the normal coverage area and market affect a station?

This is exactly the kind of self-centered thinking that can do over the air radio in. These listeners go to Satellite or computer. I would be nice to my listeners if I were a broadcaster, wait and see what happens when long range Wifi becomes a reality. Over the air radio is eating itself, you guys should be sticking together not ruining other people's signals just because you're (at this present time) a big boy. Big Boys fall hard.

Start with the fact that AM is dying. There is likely no cure for the malady, either. Two generations of listeners have grown up on FM, and simply will not listen to AM.

This is why, when traditional "Rush and friends" talkers move to FM, the 25-54 listening explodes. Those in the "sales demos" (mostly 35-54) who are interested in talk don't listen on AM. They do if the AM format is moved to FM. There are dozens of conclusive examples all over the country.

WiMax is years away, particularly since Clearwire and Sprint had their falling out. But when a suitable distribution platfom is viable, radio will use it to distribute content, just as streams, podcasts, etc. are available on the Web and on devices like the iPhone.

In general, AM radio programs for the local market each station is in. That is where the ratings, whatever they are, are monetizable or, if the station is a bad facility, as most metro AMs are, where the brokers, preachers and niche ethnic communities exist and which can buy blocks of time to sustain the station.

And, again, the hours when skywave is "enabled" are hours when all radio, and AM in particular, have very little listening. Anything, like HD, that might enhance AM and listening in general, is a safe bet with no risk.

Remember, there are only a few AMs... probably in the range of 100 or so... that create any usable skywave... the original 1A clears and most of the 1-B's and a few others. The rest are on such congested channels that even night usage inside the local market is hapered by interference to the groundwave signal by distant skip.

 

[Savage]

Right. So that's a justification for making things WORSE for 99.994 percent of listeners who consume AM in analog. :

Our station - and many others - adversely impacted by HD Radio are profitable and successful. So I deeply resent the elitist attitude of, oh well, we'll screw people like Savage because dim-bulb corporate operators can't be bothered to develop and successfully program their AM outlets. All for an idiotic system nobody wants or needs - except for its greedy quack "innovators" and empty-suit corporate-radio managers who are riding the industry to its doom.

I hope some government policy dweeb passes a law permitting seizure of your house without so much as the courtesy of even eminent domain. And that as you watch the excavator plow through your living room destroying all your possessions, you get reminded by some message-board genius:

"Oh well. Most people are living in much bigger houses than yours these days anyway. You should have seen this coming."

 

[davideduardo]

Hundred miles? The people one hundred miles away don't matter? Wow, that's callous.
Your market is what you make it. For a 50 kw AM non-d, 100 mile is still a local station here in the midwest.

First, I said "hundred miles or so" and my intent was to say, "outside the groundwave coverage area."

Anyway, how many of those 50 kw stations are there? And how many total AM's? And how many are there in the midwest... or n the whole nation... that put out a usable skywave signal that is consistent every night of the year?

You make a great case for delivering audio by plain old telephone wires. So go ahead and do it already.
Just.. switch it off. You don't need radio when the ideal market-based delivery system is hard-wired. It would enhance the local listening.

Radio stations are local. In fact, only a few hundred show up with a 1 share or more in markets other than the home market, and a large proportion of these are FMs in situations like LA stations in Riverside, Chicago stations in the southern part of the Milwaukee metro (and the inverse), etc. As to sales, those stations with neighboring market coverage can generally not make any money on the "spillage" into non-home markets, either.

What makes you think the local listeners haven't been annoyed for the last umpteen months with the iboc on?
I've asked more than a few people here in Chicagoland, and they were quite annoyed, thank you very much.

I think if you tabulated the local listener complaints to HD Radio AMs you would find your point has no validity. AM is declining quite well on its own. In some markets, the total AM share is below a 5, in fact, and most of that in over-55 demos that are not marketable for the most part.

Again, this is why Canada has moved over half its AMs to FM, and why Mexico is trying to move "as many AMs as it can" to FM, starting about 60 days ago.

 

[hipporadio]

Ahh, Stromberg-Carlson....another quality product once made in Rochester, New York...

I can't help but wonder how the SC engineers who proudly designed high fidelity audio components, and top-quality radio and TV receivers like Freebird's would have felt about IBOC. After all....even in analog...."There Is Nothing Finer Than A Stromberg-Carlson."

I too remember Stromberg Carlson well, Bob... The first radio I tuned was a Custom 400 AM/FM mono receiver built into a floor console with a Voice-Of-Music mangnetic cartridge turntable and a 10-inch speaker. My parents purchased it in the late 1950s while living in Olean, NY – and it later sat in the living room of their current home in eastern Indiana until early 1970. It remains covered and “at rest” in their basement waiting for me to begin my old radio collection hobby.

AHHH, the memories of my first Beatles 45 and Tommy James and the Shondells LP playing on that “hi-fi” – but no memories were ever better than those of the awesome AM reception and sound quality. Back in that era, the AM stations provided programming to match the marvelous SC performance... WIFE, WING, WSAI, WAKY by day – WLS, WCFL, and WABC by night! I actually made the first serious FM antenna connection to it in late 1969 to hear my first two FM stations—WNAP [Indy] and WDAO [Dayton].

Your right, Bob... "NOTHING FINER..." Hippo here likely got hooked on radio ‘cause of that Stromberg Carlson.

 

[Savage]

Now HERE'S a little attic-find sure to make you drool, Hippo....just imagine this one....

http://www.myvintagetv.com/tc10.htm

 

[KB1OKL]

Makes me drool. I have a 1949 RCA about that same size, but it nowhere near working condition, no sound and just white for a picture but at least the picture tube is good. I've never really looked at it or checked any of the tubes which is probably half the problem. Stromberg-Carlson made some really nice radios, I've never owned one and they're not as common as most other makes but I've always wanted one.

 

[calstymes]

My favorite inspector Mr. clouseau intoned:

Quote from: dxho on Yesterday at 07:23:43 am:

When does it make sense to lose listeners?

If that were the case, we probably wouldn't have FM stereo. FM Mono sounds a LOT bettter on the deep fringe. Try it out...

The difference is, we had a CHOICE with FM stereo. That little mono button... try it out!

I know of no such corresponding HD "off" button.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

Has anyone been able to figure out how to "lock mono" and disable the HD in any of the Directed Electronics units?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Now HERE'S a little attic-find sure to make you drool, Hippo....just imagine this one....

http://www.myvintagetv.com/tc10.htm

Wow - just in time to be obsoleted by the switch to digital TV. Better get a converter box for this one if you want to show it off!