I understand that the Fabulous 570/690 standards format may resurface on am and HD-FM. Brad Chambers is streaming the format now at www.martiniinthemorning.com I for one would love for it to happen. Any thoughts?
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Bringing Back The Standards
- Thread starter amlover
- Start date
ercjncpr said:
Of course, the EZ-Standards in tampa, WDUV, has 98% of its listening over the age of 65. There may be a couple of young whipérsnappers who like standards, but they are rare exceptions.
DavidEduardo said:
Not quite. WDUV-FM is NOT EZ-Standards in Tampa -- Heavily Gold based Soft A/C. The station(s) you refer to may be WDDV in Bradenton and its weaker Clear Channel simulcast sister, WSDV in Sarasota. Older demos, certainly, but WDDV is, for the sake of not quoting numbers, in a respectable (and buyable) position among both AMs and among total stations. WSDV (also "The Dove") is, admittedly, an also-ran and probably a drain, but it does "fill-in" the dual market dead spots.
I hear the station(s) via the Internet and can attest that the EZ-Standards format they feature is way way old, much unfamiliar and with ok "announcers" that sound voice tracked.
The point is ... somebody in the "correct" market(s) are, in fact listening. They hardly reach Tampa Bay (not their market, anyway,) while WDUV-FM is a winner in Tampa, but isn't a big factor in Sarasota/Bradenton at all, as is WDDV-AM.
With both (actually all three) being named, "The Dove" ... it's no wonder there may well be confusion.
If "MOR/Nostalgia" (not, IMHO, EZ Listening) returned to LA, I'd be very pleased, even on HD-2. I'd be happier if someone ran, not walked, to grab, wrestle, steal or whatever the KMPC calls...before it goes Radio Korea.
There's life in this format and the LA stream doing Fabulous 57 proves it and is right on. The people behind it have worked tirelessly to keep a breath in the format and I, for one, wish them well in getting it back on the air...soon. This 54-year-old who loves the format would be a happy camper and so would many others. Not so -- "rare exceptions."
oaktree said:
Every industry source calls WDUV Easy / Standards. It is and has been #1 in Tampa /St. Peter for the last decade, or more. But every last drop of its listening is 65+. It just can't sell it, being #14 in revenue in the market.
Yes, even older. And no sales. Less than $350,000 last year, gross, for both... buyable means being salable (soundes redundant) but 55+ and, especially 65+, has zero demand. That billing is about 1/8 the billing of the top biller in S/B.
Unlikely. 80% od diary mentions are by dial positon or some combination with dial position, plus these are separate markets. It doesn't matter, then. WDUV gets a small share in S/B (Actually, it BEATS WDDV) but WDDV gets no numbers in the Tampa market.
The problem is that it might drive some receiver sales, but it is not salable as an advertising supported channel. Last year there were no 55+ agency ad buys in LA.
R&R and Billboard and two daily "industry sources" disagree, heartily, with your format description. Clearly says, "AC". Go to their web site and do a little homework. Their "Artist Guide" is so A/C that even a 7th grader can figure it out that "Your Easy Connection ... Online" doesn't mean "EZ-Standards."
Sorry, but WDUV-FM its a soft A/C...period.
The stations you "forgot" may, as was pointed out, be skewed way high in typically "unprofitable" demos, but your post wasn't about "sales figures" which I suspect you have no clue, but to the popularity of the "rare exceptions" of those of us who like well programmed, well executed "EZ-Standards" formats. I was referring only to market rank and, again, if you did your homework, you'd note that point...whether the station "sells" or not, and I do agree, again, the format is way way too old and unfamiliar sounding to rate that high...but it does. As a self-assumed "expert" on these boards, you certainly know there are many stations with numbers and weak formats ... no matter what language or style ... that have "numbers" but no sales. I can show you a dozen oldies and A/C formats in that boat.
I said, clearly, that WDDV gets no numbers in Tampa. As for your other claim that 'DDV loses to 'DUV in S/B, you better check again because you're flat wrong. 'DDV beats 'DUV in Sarasota/Bradenton after 'DUV took a huge dump last time. 'DDV was, at least, flat ... but still one.
I've done enough Arbitron diary checks to know what is written down. "Tags" are more frequently mentioned that the 80% of frequency IDs.
As for sales in LA, a lot has to do with who's selling what and there are fewer and fewer AM sales people who know HOW to sell the format. Maybe you think that agencies just sit by and call stations to place buys just to put in some time at the office. I've stood in those lines pitching the format and got buys.
I think you have major dislike for the format and are typical of the "25-54 mentality" that sees the fragmentation of poorly represented format options and causes agencies to pull in the reins on buys they would make if sold properly. As a result, agencies write off the demo.
Not every station needs to make $35-million a year to be "successful", but maybe you haven't gotten the memo, yet.
Sorry, but WDUV-FM its a soft A/C...period.
The stations you "forgot" may, as was pointed out, be skewed way high in typically "unprofitable" demos, but your post wasn't about "sales figures" which I suspect you have no clue, but to the popularity of the "rare exceptions" of those of us who like well programmed, well executed "EZ-Standards" formats. I was referring only to market rank and, again, if you did your homework, you'd note that point...whether the station "sells" or not, and I do agree, again, the format is way way too old and unfamiliar sounding to rate that high...but it does. As a self-assumed "expert" on these boards, you certainly know there are many stations with numbers and weak formats ... no matter what language or style ... that have "numbers" but no sales. I can show you a dozen oldies and A/C formats in that boat.
I said, clearly, that WDDV gets no numbers in Tampa. As for your other claim that 'DDV loses to 'DUV in S/B, you better check again because you're flat wrong. 'DDV beats 'DUV in Sarasota/Bradenton after 'DUV took a huge dump last time. 'DDV was, at least, flat ... but still one.
I've done enough Arbitron diary checks to know what is written down. "Tags" are more frequently mentioned that the 80% of frequency IDs.
As for sales in LA, a lot has to do with who's selling what and there are fewer and fewer AM sales people who know HOW to sell the format. Maybe you think that agencies just sit by and call stations to place buys just to put in some time at the office. I've stood in those lines pitching the format and got buys.
I think you have major dislike for the format and are typical of the "25-54 mentality" that sees the fragmentation of poorly represented format options and causes agencies to pull in the reins on buys they would make if sold properly. As a result, agencies write off the demo.
Not every station needs to make $35-million a year to be "successful", but maybe you haven't gotten the memo, yet.
ercjncpr said:
That's it, shoot the messenger.
Advertisers instruct their agencies what demographic groups to buy against. And that never includes 55+ (I don't know why you keep insisting it is 50+) because there is no ROI on advertising most products to this group on radio.
1. It's not radio.
2. It is not the ad agencies.
3. It is the advertiser themselves that determines product sales demos. And it's based on ROI.
oaktree said:
No soft A/C has pure 65+ demos. That is Easy / standards, no matter what you think it is.
Actually, I have the 2006 sales figures for each of the staitons you mention.
From 2005 to 2006, WDUV fell from 14th to 15th in market billing. Yet is is #1 12+.... but all in 65+ demos.
Oldies stations with good numbers and bad sales are legion... all the demos are predominantly 55+. A/C's with good numbers sell, unless management is bad. It is hard, in arated market, not to sell with a high rated A/C because they get automatic buys. Please, though, name one high rated A/C that does not have good sales.
S/B is a quarterly rated market. Agencies use, generally, two book averages in those markets. The two booker on S/B has WDUV at a 3.8, and WDDV at a 3.1 for the same; WDUV wins.
I have no idea what a "Tag" is unless it is graffiti spray painted on walls. 80% of diary mentions nationally are for frequency or a combiantion of frequency and call or frequency and slogan or frequency and program name (the third is very rare).
And I have been a GSM/NSM for a 15-station group. If you can't meet the CPP, you do not get bought. And if your demos don't give any strength in the buy demos, there is no way with all the bonus spots in the world to meet the CPP. All agency buys are based on CPP "in demo" and if you have no listeners in the demo, no buy.
Almost all sales in LA is transactional: cost vs. demo delivery. And there are no 55+ sales, as the advertisers do not tell the agencies to do any marketing to 55+. The best seller int he world can not change a client demo spec.
Agencies don't make the demo, clients do. And I don't care about the format, as I did not get any exposure to the music as I am too young to have done so... I am a product of rock n roll Top 40 radio, not standards. But radio would be better off if clients bought 55+, as there would be more listening and more potential formats. But it does not work that way.
Since the 50's, half of all US staitons have not been profitable. Divide $21 billion by 14,000 and see what the average radio staiton bills in the US... less than a third of the gross of an average McDonalds store!
[/quote]
Let me see, that's $1.5 million a year. As you have been told so many times about the stuff you sling with these off-the-wall number crunches you do on the boards and newsgroups, you are so wrong on "averages" it's laughable. I bet even a few of your stations are saying, "Where's my check?" on that figure. Others are saying they have a few more zero's to the right. Averages, like "numbers," don't say squat, David.
I bet you don't make that in Tampa, Sarasota/Bradenton or other markets you profess to know so much about.
Instead of telling people who are on the street really "selling" this product called "radio" instead of just being a bean-counting numbers guy without basis in so many ways well documented, maybe you need to get on the street and sell a little more with knowledge of the demos, formats and markets you so arrogantly and incorrectly quote.
And what does "good sales" constitute in your opinion ... and where? Talk about subjective "artistic" myopia, David.
You have, for once, finally admitted your problem. A product of even "ethnic" formats that you supposedly specialize in at Univision and as a "format consultant" for the format? Oh, please.
Why not, then, in your position, "educate" the agencies you say dictate the buys? I deal with agencies every day and they want to "understand" the radio market. I find few clients who tell an agency what to buy...that's why they hire agencies to do the leg work and why there are long lines at the door to make those pitches, except, of course, in your position.
You don't have to be a "product" of any format to do "good" radio, sir. Many of us are "broadcasters" who learned and grew through "those" formats, including EZ-Standards and other formats as well, and it's about content and about the passion to execute and a greater passion to sell a well-executed and promoted format to a community of willing, loyal listeners.
Your sitting back waiting for the agencies who often read the "beauty contest numbers" like you apparently do is a prime reason why adults 55+ are more and more ignored. I know, it's hard for that 23-year-old sales rep who wouldn't know Tony Bennett from Michael Buble' to see a product they don't know or believe.
But it's those who know HOW to do it and work the clients and the 30-percent agency buys who do get it...and succeed, even if it means direct buys and not through agencies.
And as for "tags", it's like the one that says, "You don't know Jack." And from what you don't know about EZ-Standards, even down to knowing what a station actually does, you continue to amaze and prove that.
Read this, call Cox and tell THEM what an expert you are...http://coxradio.com/includes/stations/wduv-fm.html
Again, "You don't know EZ-Standards" ... period.
oaktree said:
OK, let's make it even more real. The top 10 markets take nearly $7 billion out of the total ad pie. And there are about 500 to 600 stations licensed inside the MSA of each of those markets. That means 13,500 dividing $14 billion. Or less than a million per station outside the top 10 markets.
If you take out the top 100 markets, the figure drops to around $600 thousand per station, and if you take out the rated markets (about 1,200 stations) the remaining 12,500 or so stations average under $300 k each per year.
My point is that this is very small business for 90% of radio stations. Essentially, owning anything but a good FM or a viable AM in a rated market is what you could call "guaranteed lifetime employment" for the owner... a car trade, restaurant trade, recognition in the community, and a nice life if the small market does not get another station. Very enviable if your lifestyle is mated to that kind of living. But it comes with the pressure of taxes, payroll, the tornado that snapped the tower, the rising insurance permiums, etc., etc.
Make what? A gross of $1.5 milllion? Tampa (MSA) has 24 AMs and 18 FMs plus about 8 non-coms. The market billed $162 million last year. For the 42 commercial stations, that averaged about $4 million a station. However, the top 15 took out $133 million leavint $29 million for the other 27, or about $1 million per.
Sarasota (MSA) has 18 commercial stations and $7.6 million total radio dollars. The top 3 stations take $6 million, leaving $1.6 million for all the rest.
I have sold since I was 17, and only moved to programming when I was alble to do better financially there than in sales. My last sales postion covered 15 stations, and I did 8 years with an average of 28% increase every year in a top 15 market, and had a power ratio of over 1.2 on the cluster. I have also sold in markets as small as Lake City, FL (as part of sales training for my staff) and in several top 15 markets. I have also been an NSM, responsible for getting my market ranked by SRDS years ago when it was excluded...
Good sales is client oriented, at consistent rates and based on doing a service for the customer that will bring them back. It also means walking on bad business, and turning down those buys that are neither good for the station or the client.
"Spanish" is not a format. We have a dozen or so different formats, ranging from teen and young adult to Mexican adult hits, and including AC, the equivalents of country, pop, talk, Tejano, and even specialized sub-genres in the bigger formats.
My point in showing my lack of exposure to standards is to illustrate that most folks under 60 to 65 did not get a chance to be exposed, due to age and the shift of music radio in the 50's to Top 40. Where I was as a kid had no standards station.... four Top 40'sw, two R&B and tow MOR, but no standards.
The agencies get buy specs from the client. P&G does not just say, "create me a campaign" but "these are the demos we designed, tested and packaged this product for. Go get them for us. Beers know that they waste money against anything but 21-44 males, so they don't buy women, and don't buy old except as spillage... but they don't pay for it.
EZ is, to me, a separate format. It lived from the 60's into the 80's, and for about a 15 year span, was often on the top rated station in a market, large or small... based on Franck Pourcel, Caravelli, Paul Mauriat, James Last, and all the Something-or-Another Strings groups. I syndicated the format for quite a few years, and see no connection with standards. Most of the custom music was covering pop (Top 40) hits, not Glen Miller songs.
Agencies look at the data for the demo they are told to buy against. The media director and the buyers and planners follow instructions based on the client and the campaign the client approved. Generally, the media department has little or no latitude in changing demo specs. So they establish a market CPP and get every station to submit rates based on their delivery. If a station can not meet CPP, or can not do enough value added to compensate, they do not get bought.
And a radio seller can not change the demos. They can negotiate rate based on delivery, but they will not change demos.
The problem in all but the smaller markets is that direct revenue comes from the clients who can not afford to have an agency (it is neither profitable to an agency nor beneficial to the client) so you are talking mostly very small accounts. In one top 15 market I was in, transactional agency business was so little and our rates so high we did not even have a local sales staff... but we called on 144 local agencies, as well as national via our reps.
Nobody writes positioning statements down in the diary. At most, they write "EZ-105" or "Majic 106.7" but not things like "Your favorite for soft rock" or "the rock of the 80's" and such.
I have never heard such called tags, though.
Hahaha. In the early 80's, I actually had a Beautiful Music syndication company, with, at one time, 87 stations on the air in markets ranging from about 100,000 to 5 million to 6 million. I was a member or one of the groups that custom recorded in Europe, and had a library of over 21,000 albums.
I think we are, in all seriousness, splitting hairs over format names. The fact is that WDUV in Tampa has a profile like a standards station, whatever their mix. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.
I'll mention this to Bob Neil next time I run into him.
The point reall is that whatever the music blend, and whatever you call it, stations that are predominantly 65+ and even 55+ have a very hard time selling as they are out of 99% of the transactional business and have to bottom feed the direct local stuff, which is sparse in bigger markets.
Probalby true, by your definition. I put my first EZ-Beautiful staiton on the air in 1967, as the first FM for 1000 miles around. It was also profitable within the year, so I guess I actually did know how to program and sell it.
I don't know if it has been pointed out, but those Florida markets are unusually heavy with retired people. So the sheer numbers of 65+
available audience makes the standards format a bit more viable in places like that, I presume.
Interesting station is suburban Cleveland's non-commercial WKHR, which is big-band/nostalgia/standards 24/7. They stream at www.wkhr.org.
They run 100% listener sponsored and, from what I understand, always hit goal.
The people are out there and loyal, that's for sure. But I think the add sell is so specialized that most commercial stations don't know how to do it. All they know how to sell is volume of people.
available audience makes the standards format a bit more viable in places like that, I presume.
Interesting station is suburban Cleveland's non-commercial WKHR, which is big-band/nostalgia/standards 24/7. They stream at www.wkhr.org.
They run 100% listener sponsored and, from what I understand, always hit goal.
The people are out there and loyal, that's for sure. But I think the add sell is so specialized that most commercial stations don't know how to do it. All they know how to sell is volume of people.
HHH said:
Perhaps, but I suppose that's why it's called broadcasting.
doublecashkgb said:
OK, so what is the difference in finding out what Hispanics want and programming for them or finding out what Persians want or what non-Hispanic whites want? Programming consists of finding out what groups of listeners like, and creating programming that will entertain, inform or otherwise attract them. It does not matter what language, color, ethnicity or country they live in.
Anecdotally, I was contacted about working on the launch of the first private and licensed FM in Karachi... I said I knew nothing about the culture, language or religious aspects of listeners in Pakistan. The owner said, "We know all those things already. What we don't know and what you do know is how to do good radio."
If you are referring to the discussion on standards, the reason this format will not work is not programming based... it is sales and revenue based. Even in markets with significant percentages of retirees, standards stations barely make it, if at all. There is just no interest in an audience that is predominantly over 65, even by most local advertisers. The agency accounts have specific demo goals, and they never include 65+ for radio.
So, rethink YOUR thinking and keep in mind that the second most important job of a program director is to deleliver a sizable, salable audience to the sales department. There are thousands of ways to do this, but failing to deliver sales demos is not an alternative.
OK, show of hands, here ... if YOUR "Adult Standards" 5kw AM in a market of, say, 80+ radio stations "only" made (according to the front page story of this board) $5-million a year (Even with the Lakers, LOL) - would you think that a bad deal, considering that there are a bunch that made less than $5-million?
Oh, I know, it was the Lakers fault KLAC switched "570 - The Lounge" to the Mighty 1090. Then killed it. Riiiiiight.
Also, how come you are so stuck in the BIA number crunching to hear what's really going on when stations flip from that format and do even WORSE in ratings, billing and revenue?
Let's see ... there's WPEN in Philadelphia, axing, now, its 4th PD in a year, with, what half a share as a bottom-feeder? Even oldies wasn't THAT bad there. "Standards" actually did quite well and more, certainly, than the trainwreck of a sports format.
How about KLAC? Not so hot in El Lay. And let's not forget how well KSPN is doing under ABC at 710 which was, um, "Standards/MOR" before they dumped the format and calls. Oh, wait, no ... that's not true. They lit up the dial with Radio Disney first, there. A bold move where man had never gone before ... or, hardly, since.
Let's not forget KMPC "The Ticket" (now in another life as Radio Korea.) That sure worked, didn't it? It sank lower than the Titanic and the Edmund Fitzgerald combined. Gene Autry must be spinning or laughing, one or the other.
How about WIND in Chicago. They are, what, near-bottom feeding with that demo-drawing "sports talk" format. I bet you'll say that's a revenue winner, too. At least they were ... once, with a pretty slick "Adult" format.
Even in Detroit, the wheels are falling off WXYT. Soon, "standards" CKWW will beat it.
Maybe the brain-trusts at Clear Channel should consider bringing back the "Standards" (with an MOR tilt) to WWRC in Washington, before they completely drop off the page, too. Maybe they could get Willard Scott off the farm and put him with Johnny Holliday...
And in New York, poor WQEW. The "standard" for the format after it left WNEW, which Bloomberg set a'sinkin' quite fast and Radio Dizzy is a no-show, despite taking some sports from low-rated WEPN (another former decent "standards" station as WHN in it's day,) and WFAN.
Added together, none still have the ratings of either WNEW or WQEW. Thankfully, there's WHLI on Long Island.
Even Entercom in Denver -- which isn't screaming the "flip" word with a steady couple of shares -- even if it is all 65+ (doubtful) -- at KEZW in Denver has some faith, at least ... with FM competition and rimshots, as well.
But, I guess we must remember that all "old people" have long since departed New York and those agencies all chase the, what, fifty-some 25-54 demo stations? Yeah...that must mean that those agencies are making lots of extensive buys for all those stations... Advertisers must sure be rich to target those demos in that rat-race.
Good luck to Brad Chambers and "Martini" in LA. Here's to your next $5-mill and then some.
Oh, I know, it was the Lakers fault KLAC switched "570 - The Lounge" to the Mighty 1090. Then killed it. Riiiiiight.
Also, how come you are so stuck in the BIA number crunching to hear what's really going on when stations flip from that format and do even WORSE in ratings, billing and revenue?
Let's see ... there's WPEN in Philadelphia, axing, now, its 4th PD in a year, with, what half a share as a bottom-feeder? Even oldies wasn't THAT bad there. "Standards" actually did quite well and more, certainly, than the trainwreck of a sports format.
How about KLAC? Not so hot in El Lay. And let's not forget how well KSPN is doing under ABC at 710 which was, um, "Standards/MOR" before they dumped the format and calls. Oh, wait, no ... that's not true. They lit up the dial with Radio Disney first, there. A bold move where man had never gone before ... or, hardly, since.
Let's not forget KMPC "The Ticket" (now in another life as Radio Korea.) That sure worked, didn't it? It sank lower than the Titanic and the Edmund Fitzgerald combined. Gene Autry must be spinning or laughing, one or the other.
How about WIND in Chicago. They are, what, near-bottom feeding with that demo-drawing "sports talk" format. I bet you'll say that's a revenue winner, too. At least they were ... once, with a pretty slick "Adult" format.
Even in Detroit, the wheels are falling off WXYT. Soon, "standards" CKWW will beat it.
Maybe the brain-trusts at Clear Channel should consider bringing back the "Standards" (with an MOR tilt) to WWRC in Washington, before they completely drop off the page, too. Maybe they could get Willard Scott off the farm and put him with Johnny Holliday...
And in New York, poor WQEW. The "standard" for the format after it left WNEW, which Bloomberg set a'sinkin' quite fast and Radio Dizzy is a no-show, despite taking some sports from low-rated WEPN (another former decent "standards" station as WHN in it's day,) and WFAN.
Added together, none still have the ratings of either WNEW or WQEW. Thankfully, there's WHLI on Long Island.
Even Entercom in Denver -- which isn't screaming the "flip" word with a steady couple of shares -- even if it is all 65+ (doubtful) -- at KEZW in Denver has some faith, at least ... with FM competition and rimshots, as well.
But, I guess we must remember that all "old people" have long since departed New York and those agencies all chase the, what, fifty-some 25-54 demo stations? Yeah...that must mean that those agencies are making lots of extensive buys for all those stations... Advertisers must sure be rich to target those demos in that rat-race.
Good luck to Brad Chambers and "Martini" in LA. Here's to your next $5-mill and then some.
oaktree said:
The problem is that a $5 million gross in large markets may not cover expenses and a reasonable return on invested capital.
Killed? KLAC now bills about $25 million a year; when it was standards, it billed around $10 and 80% of that was sports revenue. I believe that the format went to 690, not 1090 (1090 XEPRS went from Spanish to English sports, and is now SD's #1 biller), where it failed.
BIA is simply the accepted source for market and station revenues. Since radio is a business, revenue is a first indicator of success. The fact is that most stations that have switched in recent years from standards have done better, despite an exception or two.
And that is the exception.
Not so hot? It bills nearly $25 million, and is among the highest billers in the entire USA. In fact, in the entire USA, only 63 stations billed more than it did.
Both ESPN and Radio Disney are branding extensions for Disney. They are not principally intended to be profitable, but, rather, to enhance the ESPN and Disney brands. KMPC on AM 710 was really dead when they sold it to be a Disney station... in fact, just like KSCA, GWB sold because the station was not profitable. In 1995, when KMPC was sold (a full 12 years ago, so totally irrelevant, anyway) they got $17 million for it... when 5 kw KRTH (AM) sold for $25 million a couple of years earlier... nearly half of the $17 was for the prime Van Nuys real estate, too.
1540 was a bad decision by a very rich person, Paul Allen. The signal pretty much has one problem: it does not cover non-Hispanic whites, the core to a sports station. It covers Hispanics OK, Blacks OK and Asians beautifully.
WIND is Salem's brand of conservative talk. It is not sports. Never has been. Before that, it was Spanish for about 15 years... has not been English since, I believe, the late 80's. Totally irrelevant, as the "adult audience" of 20 years ago is now either dead or over 70.... the station was sold because it was not profitable, by the way.
WXYT has been talk or sports for about 20 years. Not relevant.
There is a reason 50 kw WTOP moved to FM. There is no AM in DC that covers the market. WWRC is an absolutely horrible signal, day and night.
The AM, a high bander with not-so-good metro coverage, was not profitable. And it did nothing positive for the NYT image, while Disney had a great marketing use for it.
Why do you refer to "standards" stations that have not been in the format for decades? WHN (famous only as WMGM for a while) was country from the 70's... it was not a decent standards station in the last third of a century.
Yet WFAN is among the top 5 or 6 billing stations in the country, and has been since it went all sports. And WHLI has a power ratio of 0.20, while WFAN has one of 2.8 and bills 50 times what WHLI does.
Probably not a bad use for a dreadful, directional, high band AM in a market that has outgrown all but about 3 of it's AMs... if automated, it may even make a dollar or two. It gets about 1% of revenue in the market on a 2 share of listening (down from nearly a 4 in 2002).
What's the point? Standards may be a decent use for a troubled AM that has limited signal and no other alternative. It is never going to be highly profitable, but may justify keeping the station in a cluster... and avoid a write-down when it is sold for less than book value (which is the real issue with publicly traded radio companies).
But, I guess we must remember that all "old people" have long since departed New York and those agencies all chase the, what, fifty-some 25-54 demo stations? Yeah...that must mean that those agencies are making lots of extensive buys for all those stations... Advertisers must sure be rich to target those demos in that rat-race.
Good luck to Brad Chambers and "Martini" in LA. Here's to your next $5-mill and then some.
[/quote]
My mistake...it was 690. The point is...make up your mind, David. Is it ratings or revenues? I find it hard to believe that a belly-up capital investment showing half a share in a metro of 80 stations is going to do $25-million a year. 690 failed because CC was offered more for an LMA, I believe ... and killed the format.
The point was for all mentioned ... the numbers aren't there for any of the stations mentioned and you find futile excuses to justify their weak programming existance.
Thanks for acknowledging the WPEN situation in the affirmative. Nice to see we agree on something for once.
If revenues are so high at KLAC, especiallly with the cost of sport rights (even after 30 years, I imagine the Lakers don't just give the rights to KLAC,) how can that possibly add up when numbers are in the tank like they are? And let's not talk about trending...pretty flat it seems over several books.
It seems odd that at $8-million in revenues (not counting real estate) that GWB didn't realize the "profitability" or made changes to better reflect the then-market in Los Angeles. Maybe it all flew out the door to the Angels... I find it hard to believe that the station got so expensive to run that it was desperately sold because of "the format." I think they sold it because ABC's fat wallet was the buyer. Big difference and an honest one. You hate the format, remember? So at least humor me by saying it was because ABC came flush with the bigger wheelbarrow of money that the Mr. Autry expected. Not the format. Bad excuse for "non-performing" just to claim the market as an "affiliate" and a waste of spectrum all this time ... how many years?
Funny how billionaires can make "bad decisions," but it's for all the apparently obvious reasons you stated. Of course it was a bad decision from the get-go.
On WIND, irrelevant. My mix-up on the format but Salem is as bad there with talk than they are with the same thing in Philadelphia on two stations, one a money maker with a legacy -- and not for "seniors." That's Salem, I guess. I guess you'll point out the as a brokered AM, Salem Philly 560 is a huge money maker, too, and so is its station on 990. Doubtful.
Not relevant? A Detroit station that's been in a format or two away from what made it legendary after 20 years -- still pulling a 1 share with a major group? I'd say relevant.
WWRC covers the DC metro better than some. Bad signal or not, bad ratings with a dead format like at present is a sad excuse for a station with "0" half of its last several books.
WHN was the worst of the worst of standards stations in New York 33 years ago, but had pretty big competition in the format ... that made money for others while Storer languished with it and, and aside for other problems, didn't know what to do until it was too late. But it did have its fans...
My post wasn't about the difference betweeen WFAN and WHLI and the power ratios at all. Not even a point. Irrelevant
The fact that a daytimer at one-fifth the power of a 50kw blowtorch like WFAN and a city-grade signal of mostly fish and ocean pulling anything in metro NY is amazing, if not commendable.
KEZW Denver is 10kw non-directional day - direction with a decent city grade at night that while not optimum with 5kw (and 5 towers) does cover the market ok. Outgrown by all but three AMs...including the market leader at 50kw that doesn't pull a 6 share? Come on, David, lighten up a little. There's got to be a better relationship between ratings and revenues or there are some really really poor top rated stations out here or some very very rich bottom feeders. Agencies buy stations 50 deep with huge sacks of buys?
Man, there is hope...
The point was for all mentioned ... the numbers aren't there for any of the stations mentioned and you find futile excuses to justify their weak programming existance.
Thanks for acknowledging the WPEN situation in the affirmative. Nice to see we agree on something for once.
If revenues are so high at KLAC, especiallly with the cost of sport rights (even after 30 years, I imagine the Lakers don't just give the rights to KLAC,) how can that possibly add up when numbers are in the tank like they are? And let's not talk about trending...pretty flat it seems over several books.
It seems odd that at $8-million in revenues (not counting real estate) that GWB didn't realize the "profitability" or made changes to better reflect the then-market in Los Angeles. Maybe it all flew out the door to the Angels... I find it hard to believe that the station got so expensive to run that it was desperately sold because of "the format." I think they sold it because ABC's fat wallet was the buyer. Big difference and an honest one. You hate the format, remember? So at least humor me by saying it was because ABC came flush with the bigger wheelbarrow of money that the Mr. Autry expected. Not the format. Bad excuse for "non-performing" just to claim the market as an "affiliate" and a waste of spectrum all this time ... how many years?
Funny how billionaires can make "bad decisions," but it's for all the apparently obvious reasons you stated. Of course it was a bad decision from the get-go.
On WIND, irrelevant. My mix-up on the format but Salem is as bad there with talk than they are with the same thing in Philadelphia on two stations, one a money maker with a legacy -- and not for "seniors." That's Salem, I guess. I guess you'll point out the as a brokered AM, Salem Philly 560 is a huge money maker, too, and so is its station on 990. Doubtful.
Not relevant? A Detroit station that's been in a format or two away from what made it legendary after 20 years -- still pulling a 1 share with a major group? I'd say relevant.
WWRC covers the DC metro better than some. Bad signal or not, bad ratings with a dead format like at present is a sad excuse for a station with "0" half of its last several books.
WHN was the worst of the worst of standards stations in New York 33 years ago, but had pretty big competition in the format ... that made money for others while Storer languished with it and, and aside for other problems, didn't know what to do until it was too late. But it did have its fans...
My post wasn't about the difference betweeen WFAN and WHLI and the power ratios at all. Not even a point. Irrelevant
The fact that a daytimer at one-fifth the power of a 50kw blowtorch like WFAN and a city-grade signal of mostly fish and ocean pulling anything in metro NY is amazing, if not commendable.
KEZW Denver is 10kw non-directional day - direction with a decent city grade at night that while not optimum with 5kw (and 5 towers) does cover the market ok. Outgrown by all but three AMs...including the market leader at 50kw that doesn't pull a 6 share? Come on, David, lighten up a little. There's got to be a better relationship between ratings and revenues or there are some really really poor top rated stations out here or some very very rich bottom feeders. Agencies buy stations 50 deep with huge sacks of buys?
Man, there is hope...
oaktree said:
Actually the FCC made CC divest themselves of 690 and the other Mexican frequencies because they were in control of too many signals in the greater San Diego metro. Something like 14 stations when added to the American stations they own there. But I'm inclined to agree with your feelings about the Sports format. In a town with too many Sports Talk stations already it doesn't seem to make sense. I don't see it, but they must have felt they would get greater revenue with 570 as a Sports station. The Lounge sure did have a loyal following, but they may have felt that following was too small or getting too old. Still, Brad Chambers was always touting the fact that they had many younger listeners.
oaktree said:
It's about revenues. Ratings create billing only if they are in certain age groups, the 12+ numbers which we see online not being one of the age groups ad buyers pay any attention to.
WFAN, which rates on the average about 15th in NY has such good salable male numbers and delivers them without spillage that it is always in the top 5 billers in NY(#4 in 2006) and among the top 10 in the US.
KLAC delivers an audience that is sizable, in a core demo. Whether it has big 12+ does not matter... what does is that it's billing is increasing and it takes nearly 2.5% of the revenue share out of LA... over a 4 power ratio.
The 25-44 and 25-54 male numbers are there, and sports gets the highest power ratios of any format as there are huge amounts of money tagged only for sports... some comes out of sports marketing dollars that advertisers do not even consider non sports stations for.
On the other hand, there are no "standards dollars" and definitely no "55+ dollars" out there.
All I can think of is that GM was thinking of the future, and wanted to develop a more marketable brand. Which, of corse, they did not do. Any of us in radio who have never made mistakes are either lying to ourseves or have not been in the biz very long.
The answer is very simple... it's a sports station. There are many comparable examples all over the country.
KMPC was not billing $8 million. In fact, it was billing significantly less, and losing money. KRTH (AM) which went for $25 million had no revenues... that was stick value. Today, a semi-decent LA AM is still worth as much as $50 million with no revenues at all.
It had low billing, and it was in severe decline. And Gene Autrey was winding down his investments so he could do estate planning and they were actively seeking a buyer.
I don't hate the format personally... I just don't see any upside to it. ABC had the money, the executives were close to Autrey, and they reached a deal. ABC at the time was very anxious to grow the Radio Disney franchise, so they paid for what was basically a stick. And a tower farm on Burbank Blvd.
Personally, based on the $25 million just a few years later for KRTH, KMPC went on the cheap side. Agian, the motivation was to get out of radio... and ABC may have come up with some creative and tax-friendly options just like HBC did when they bought KSCA some years later (LMA with deferred purchase to aboid double taxation).
The Disney format is a pretty creative use of AM in an era when AM is having a hard time.
Yeah, they probably could have gotten more if they tried. Of course, the other offers were from broadcasters who wanted to go Spanish, and at the time Autrey did not want that to happen... so he got less money.
Salem's stations are profitable, and they have a business model that is quite cost efficient. 560 and 990 are very profitable, as such staitons do not strictly based on ratings... especially the brokered religious ones which are huge cash cows.
20 years is eternity in broadcasting. The 50-year-olds in 1987 are 70 now. Legendary stations are legends as long as they get listening and make money..... such did not happen at WXYZ.
Yeah, they should broker it or do some kind of ethnic programming. But even for that, the 1260 signal is horrible. Maybe not viable In the 60's, it was the flagship for DC baseball, and had to have an affiliate in Fairfax to get any VA coverage...
Storer with Ed Salmon programming country was very successful, and they had a nice run untill music listening went to FM and country lost out to the increasing diversity of NY. In fact, the station was not "standards" but what was called MOR back then. And only for a period between the Top 40 days and country taking over.
How so? One outbills its ratings by a large multiple, while the other, in its embedded market, underbills by 80%.
Nassau and Suffolk counties are part of the NY metro.
Denver is a 7-county metro and the 10 mv/m pretty much is limited, daytime, to the swatch from Golden to Aurora.
Then buy a station and try to make it work.
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