There's so much attention being given to what's happening in Rochester that Buffalo is being totally ignored these past few weeks. So, what do y'all think of the Fall book in Buffalo? I know our friend Radnowski made scant reference to the Buffalo book in one of his postings in a WCMF thread. But this deserves its own discussion. It appears WJYE is winning the war for women. Is that all attributable to Christmas, given the holiday music covers just a third of the book? And what about WHTT? Its move toward the female demographic has cost them listeners, though there was a rebound from the station's terrible summer book. Buffalo once again proves that AM is not dead with WBEN number one and WGR number six. So, what say the rest of you? Though, please, let's not go through the tired argument that these numbers mean nothing and it's the 25-54 numbers that matter. Since those numbers are proprietary to the stations that subscribe, the rest of us only have the "public" 12+ numbers to discuss.
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Buffalo Ratings
- Thread starter Philip_Airtime
- Start date
Looking at the 12+, compared to last Fall (the last Christmas music book)
Everybody off the Rand building did well. 'YRK had a good book, 'BLK had another very good book, and 'JYE obviously won the Christmas battle. It makes you wonder about diary placement.
Star had to be disappointed in the 12+ numbers, while Mix was up from last year, and only .1 behind Star. 'JYE's book is up so far that you might think "fluke", except that Star is down so far from last year.
A third of the book is a very significant portion, especially when diaries are in play. How many people actually fill out the diary on the last day that they're due, instead of recording listening throughout the two week period? Plenty, according to past research. The actual Christmas music effect likely is closer to half the book. One other consideration - the diary method records what people are hearing, not what they're listening to. Plenty of offices and retail outlets use radio as cheap background Muzak during the holidays. People record it in their diary whether they prefer it or not.
'BLK's numbers continue to have a significant impact on the market. Once again, one wonders about sampling, and whether people-meter results in Buffalo would mirror the results in other markets, which seriously affected the numbers for primarily ethnic stations. On the other hand, 'BLK is very well programmed, and I've heard that the syndicated Tom Joyner show is doing very well in the morning. They're obviously beating up 'KSE, and probably taking some listeners away from Star as well. It makes you wonder if Janet Snyder's TV exposure is more like overexposure, or if the lower demo audience is finally realizing that she's a 40-something mom, not a "hip young chick".
Of course, the demos - and 25-54 Women in particular - may tell a very different story. I'd guess that Star does very well in 25-44 Women, and that 'JYE and Mix divvy up 45+ Women. I've noticed that 'JYE plays a lot more '60s music than Mix - which seems odd to me - and probably skews older. Mix seems to be a little more rock-oriented, and not as soft as 'JYE or even Star. It also seems to me that Mix "adjusted" their music after Star and 'JYE went Christmas this year. It's too bad that they didn't expand their playlist a bit while they had no direct competition. All three stations seem to play a lot of the same songs - to death, in my opinion.
The Spring book could be interesting. Jockeys, to your posts!
Everybody off the Rand building did well. 'YRK had a good book, 'BLK had another very good book, and 'JYE obviously won the Christmas battle. It makes you wonder about diary placement.
Star had to be disappointed in the 12+ numbers, while Mix was up from last year, and only .1 behind Star. 'JYE's book is up so far that you might think "fluke", except that Star is down so far from last year.
A third of the book is a very significant portion, especially when diaries are in play. How many people actually fill out the diary on the last day that they're due, instead of recording listening throughout the two week period? Plenty, according to past research. The actual Christmas music effect likely is closer to half the book. One other consideration - the diary method records what people are hearing, not what they're listening to. Plenty of offices and retail outlets use radio as cheap background Muzak during the holidays. People record it in their diary whether they prefer it or not.
'BLK's numbers continue to have a significant impact on the market. Once again, one wonders about sampling, and whether people-meter results in Buffalo would mirror the results in other markets, which seriously affected the numbers for primarily ethnic stations. On the other hand, 'BLK is very well programmed, and I've heard that the syndicated Tom Joyner show is doing very well in the morning. They're obviously beating up 'KSE, and probably taking some listeners away from Star as well. It makes you wonder if Janet Snyder's TV exposure is more like overexposure, or if the lower demo audience is finally realizing that she's a 40-something mom, not a "hip young chick".
Of course, the demos - and 25-54 Women in particular - may tell a very different story. I'd guess that Star does very well in 25-44 Women, and that 'JYE and Mix divvy up 45+ Women. I've noticed that 'JYE plays a lot more '60s music than Mix - which seems odd to me - and probably skews older. Mix seems to be a little more rock-oriented, and not as soft as 'JYE or even Star. It also seems to me that Mix "adjusted" their music after Star and 'JYE went Christmas this year. It's too bad that they didn't expand their playlist a bit while they had no direct competition. All three stations seem to play a lot of the same songs - to death, in my opinion.
The Spring book could be interesting. Jockeys, to your posts!
My first take is that these are 12+ numbers, but with respect to the advisory from Phil, I'll not complete the sentence. I guess it's become my trademark when posting about 12+ ratings on these boards.
Mr. Roxalot sums the situation quite articulately. Hard to disagree with his vision.
It took about two months after the Summer book before the 25-54 trickled into my hands from a Rochester associate. If I'm lucky, I'll see the Fall numbers in March, so not knowing what they hold, I can only speculate.
I wonder if WHTT misses those big 25-54 numbers it held for so long while Tom Schuh was programming the station as Oldies 104. It's generally conceded those numbers were skewed 50+ or 45+, but they were consistently strong. As long as I'm on the subject, I'll borrow a thought from Bob Smith who seems to constantly speculate whether WHTT might revert to something akin to what CBS-FM, NY is doing. A few more books like this and WHTT might consider it.
12+ numbers can be so misleading, especially around Christmas. It wouldn't surprise me if Star and WJYE split the Christmas listeners evenly young-to-old, with WJYE getting the benefit of 12+ and Star getting the benefit of 25-54. Just conjecture.
It looks like WGR and WBEN over-achieved; WGR with or without the Sabres on a winning streak and WBEN without an October surprise storm. Entercom has to be very pleased with its AM properties here. Wonder where the bulk of the listeners lie? Dare I suggest 45+ on WBEN?
Looking at the ratings for the Lake, one might wonder why Entercom doesn't shift the station to Oldies or Classic Hits and make Citadel's life totally unbearable. The 107.7 signal isn't great, but Oldies-Classic Hits listeners are just the kind of people who would endure a secondary signal just to hear their favorites from the Beatles, Stones and Four Tops. There's an experienced first-rate program director available who could execute the format successfully.
97 Rock, while stable, didn't set the world on fire with the Bills and this surprises me. I expected it to be much stronger. Perhaps WGR stole 97 Rock's thunder with just enough Bills talk to offset the games on 97 Rock. Then again, ahem, these are 12+ numbers... Sorry Phil. I tried.
WBLK looks sensational! No doubt Joyner contributes significantly to the station's overall performance, but the other dayparts should not be diminished. The only question I have about WBLK is diary placement. In previous books where diaries seemed to fall "in the city," both Kiss and Wild/Z-101 saw ratings gains and that does not appear to be the case here.
Mr. Roxalot sums the situation quite articulately. Hard to disagree with his vision.
It took about two months after the Summer book before the 25-54 trickled into my hands from a Rochester associate. If I'm lucky, I'll see the Fall numbers in March, so not knowing what they hold, I can only speculate.
I wonder if WHTT misses those big 25-54 numbers it held for so long while Tom Schuh was programming the station as Oldies 104. It's generally conceded those numbers were skewed 50+ or 45+, but they were consistently strong. As long as I'm on the subject, I'll borrow a thought from Bob Smith who seems to constantly speculate whether WHTT might revert to something akin to what CBS-FM, NY is doing. A few more books like this and WHTT might consider it.
12+ numbers can be so misleading, especially around Christmas. It wouldn't surprise me if Star and WJYE split the Christmas listeners evenly young-to-old, with WJYE getting the benefit of 12+ and Star getting the benefit of 25-54. Just conjecture.
It looks like WGR and WBEN over-achieved; WGR with or without the Sabres on a winning streak and WBEN without an October surprise storm. Entercom has to be very pleased with its AM properties here. Wonder where the bulk of the listeners lie? Dare I suggest 45+ on WBEN?
Looking at the ratings for the Lake, one might wonder why Entercom doesn't shift the station to Oldies or Classic Hits and make Citadel's life totally unbearable. The 107.7 signal isn't great, but Oldies-Classic Hits listeners are just the kind of people who would endure a secondary signal just to hear their favorites from the Beatles, Stones and Four Tops. There's an experienced first-rate program director available who could execute the format successfully.
97 Rock, while stable, didn't set the world on fire with the Bills and this surprises me. I expected it to be much stronger. Perhaps WGR stole 97 Rock's thunder with just enough Bills talk to offset the games on 97 Rock. Then again, ahem, these are 12+ numbers... Sorry Phil. I tried.
WBLK looks sensational! No doubt Joyner contributes significantly to the station's overall performance, but the other dayparts should not be diminished. The only question I have about WBLK is diary placement. In previous books where diaries seemed to fall "in the city," both Kiss and Wild/Z-101 saw ratings gains and that does not appear to be the case here.
PhilipAirtime said:...our friend Radnowski made scant reference to the Buffalo book in one of his postings in a WCMF thread...
I was beginning to think nobody cared about stuff that went on at this end of the thruway.
Reading the ratings posts so far, I concur that WBLK had another strong, if not stronger, book. I'll bet it looks good across the board too, 18-34 and 25-54. I don't think it's a fluke, either. Tom Joyner has a pretty good morning show for people of color and white folks too. I hope this doesn't sound prejudiced, but Joyner is a good show for white folks to listen to because it gives us an insight to the issues and sensitivities of the black community. And it's pretty damn funny without the poop n pee stuff that the white boys rely on in the morning.
A lot of 18-34's may be listening to WBLK because they believe the music is newer, different and "better" than what's being peddled on Kiss, Z or Edge. I don't agree with the theory that WBLK's success is the result of "weighted diaries" from Buffalo zip codes. Just look at how well WDKX is doing in Rochester.
I'll join the chorus that expected Star to do a lot better with Christmas music. From what we can see in the 12+, it looks like WJYE won that battle. Do you think it might have anything to do with that Christmas Music Countdown Clock that appeared on the WJYE website about a month before they went All Christmas? The appeal of Christmas music continues to puzzle me. I understand the theory and application, but it still amazes me that listeners get drawn to that music. Can you imagine working in an offices and hearing "Holly Jolly Christmas" four weeks before Christmas? Shoot me now. Clearly, I'm not in that demo.
WYRK is a great radio station that doesn't get its due on this board. It's morning show is topical and entertaining, although a bit pretentious in the flag waving department, but if that's what listeners like, why not play to it wheher it's genuine or contrived. I guess being the only FM country station in Buffalo doesn't hurt. Think another station will flip to country before the end of the year? I'm not suggesting the Lake, so don't accuse me of rumor-mongering. Speaking of the Lake... well, there it is.
WGR has become a bad parody of itself but it appears sports fans love the station, or at least certain dayparts (Sabres at night?) which helped drive the station's 12+ rating up.
What can you say about WBEN? The only commercial news-talk station in the market that plays to the "30 per centers" who drink the Cool Aid and want more. Nothing delivers success better than knowing who your listeners are and giving them what they want. And to think WHLD thought they were going to give WBEN a run. Folly. I would like to see WNED-AM and WBFO included in those 12+ ratings on R&R's website. It would give guys like us a better view of the market and give "alw" and Marc Scott the credit due their stations.
A
AndrewLawson
Guest
I wonder if WHTT misses those big 25-54 numbers it held for so long while Tom Schuh was programming the station as Oldies 104... WHTT might revert to something akin to what CBS-FM, NY is doing. A few more books like this and WHTT might consider it.
It sounds like Mix 104 wants to be Star 102.5, but Star has better personalities and a better reputation, from the morning show right through the night show. In competitive situations like this, there's the contender and the pretender. Oldies or Classic Hits would be a great fit for The Lake, which seems to be treading water these days. Harv More in the morning, PJ Foxx middays, Tom Schuh afternoons and PD, Craig Matthews at night with Ken Palmer, Brian J and Hank Nevins on weekends playing the hits from 1955 to 1985. I'd listen to it even if was in mono.
I do like Andrew's line-up for his proposed Classic Hits station. But I don't think Entercom will be ponying up the money to hire that level of talent for its fringe signal station. By the way, I'm hearing talk about future employment for one of the personalities you mentioned. At this point, I'd prefer to avoid saying any more until an official announcement is made.
I would respectfully disagree with you, Andrew, on which station, Star or Mix, has the better personalities. I would suggest Bill Lacy is clearly the better personality in morning drive. He's a Buffalo institution, given his long tenure on WBEN. Rob Lucas is a fine announcer. But I would say Bill has the more engaging personality. At middays, you have two fine announcers, both of whom are veterans of Buffalo radio -- Jim Pastrick and Roger Christian. I've never met Roger. But Jim is a friend and -- at the risk of embarrassing him -- one of the best talents in the business today. He's an amazing producer, a talented rock jock and a can hold his own as a talk show host. So, I would go with Jim, though I do want to go on the record that I have always respected the work Roger has done in this business. In afternoon drive, I would agree Star has the edge.
Thanks the analysis -- Rox, Niner and Rad. That's just what I was looking for when I started the thread!
I would respectfully disagree with you, Andrew, on which station, Star or Mix, has the better personalities. I would suggest Bill Lacy is clearly the better personality in morning drive. He's a Buffalo institution, given his long tenure on WBEN. Rob Lucas is a fine announcer. But I would say Bill has the more engaging personality. At middays, you have two fine announcers, both of whom are veterans of Buffalo radio -- Jim Pastrick and Roger Christian. I've never met Roger. But Jim is a friend and -- at the risk of embarrassing him -- one of the best talents in the business today. He's an amazing producer, a talented rock jock and a can hold his own as a talk show host. So, I would go with Jim, though I do want to go on the record that I have always respected the work Roger has done in this business. In afternoon drive, I would agree Star has the edge.
Thanks the analysis -- Rox, Niner and Rad. That's just what I was looking for when I started the thread!
I
intheknow2
Guest
Mix will always have some factors regarding competing with Star..#1: Star's incredible signal strength. There's pretty much nowhere you can go without losing Star's signal in the market...inside those steel downtown buildings, WHTT can get garbled and crappy sounding...not so much the case with Star. #2: History...WJYE has been at the soft rock/AC game for a long time, as has Star. IMO Mix isn't pulling in bad numbers for being the new kid on the AC block, especially having to overcome a long-standing image change. You'd be surprised how many people still refer to Mix as Oldies 104.
I think Mix has great jocks. Lacy is a legend...Gail could do a little better. Jim P always has been, and continues to be 100% professional and you can hear that. The problems with afternoons might have more to do with opportunity. It's no secret that since she came into the Citadel fold, they have no clue what to do with Val Townsend, except under no circumstances do they want her to have the chance to go to a competitor. Across the entire cluster you hear her the most in produced elements...she's on at least 75% of commercials and is the imaging voice for WGRF. With maybe 5 opportunities to talk an hour, and most of those being quick front sells...how much personality can you get from AC jocks? The PDs shouldn't be afraid to let their jocks TALK.
It is after all, what they're there for?
And I have no idea how Tesh fits into the mix. Yes, pun intended.
I think Mix has great jocks. Lacy is a legend...Gail could do a little better. Jim P always has been, and continues to be 100% professional and you can hear that. The problems with afternoons might have more to do with opportunity. It's no secret that since she came into the Citadel fold, they have no clue what to do with Val Townsend, except under no circumstances do they want her to have the chance to go to a competitor. Across the entire cluster you hear her the most in produced elements...she's on at least 75% of commercials and is the imaging voice for WGRF. With maybe 5 opportunities to talk an hour, and most of those being quick front sells...how much personality can you get from AC jocks? The PDs shouldn't be afraid to let their jocks TALK.
It is after all, what they're there for?
And I have no idea how Tesh fits into the mix. Yes, pun intended.
Mixed Up?
My take on Mix is that they're trying to split the difference between Star and 'JYE. Star has more "rhythmic" songs, and is very much current with its music. 'JYE is playing more than a few '60s classics, and is skewing older. Mix is playing mainly recurrents, and shying away from "Timbaland" and other songs in that genre.
Star is taking an almost full-service approach. They talk more than either Mix or 'JYE, and even have hourly news updates at the bottom of the hour. Having a local news department in the building adds to the value of their content. I personally find Rob Lucas annoying, but I'm not a 25-54 female. Roger Christian is a known quantity who's been doing mid-days for a long time. He's smooth, topical, friendly, and familiar. Sue O'Neil can be very good, although you never know when she's going to get a little snarky - or maybe too snarky. Brian Demay is the new kid on the block, but the first time I heard him I thought that they'd cloned Roger. I'm still not sure that isn't true. John Anthony is local, which has me rooting for him, but I honestly don't hear him - or any evening guy - very often.
'JYE has downgraded their commitment to "added value". I think that their lineup 12-18 months ago was much stronger. Blowing up the morning show - however necessary it may have been from a managerial or personal standpoint - didn't help them. Neither did dumping Mike McQueen, or putting CJ in mid-days by herself. Losing her recently and replacing her with Alexis may be an upgrade, but it still isn't as strong a line-up as it was pre-shakeup. Delilah - as maddening as I may find her - crushes both Star and Mix in the evening. Her numbers pump up 'JYE's 12+ and Mon-Fri 6A-12P numbers enough to make their other dayparts look better.
Mix has a fairly strong lineup of personalities, but doesn't use them much. I agree that Bill Lacy is the stronger personality on the morning show, although I think that Gail has upped her game somewhat recently. I absolutely agree that Jim Pastrick is a pro, who can be smooth as glass and makes very few mistakes when he gets the chance to perform. Val Townsend has a great voice, but its overexposed. She also seems to be very formulaic. I don't know if she's restricted in her approach, or just isn't comfortable personalizing the elements that seem to be scheduled almost every time she opens the mic. The addition of Tesh on Mix is obviously an attempt to break the Delilah lock on 25-54 women. Tesh has successfully challenged Delilah in other markets. I'm guessing that Mix is hoping for similar results after the obviously voice-tracked Joe Siragusa failed to make much of a dent.
'BLK and 'YRK are the other part of the 25-54 women story. Both stations are tied in the morning - way ahead of the 3 AC flavors. 'BLK falls back significantly in mid-days, behind Star and 'JYE, and only a little ahead of Mix. It's more of a horse race between 'YRK, Star, 'BLK, and 'JYE in PM Drive, with Mix a ways behind. 'BLK dominates in the evening, crushing even Delilah on 'JYE and 'YRK.
It might get more interesting if someone took the CBS-FM "Classic Hits" approach to the problem. I wish I knew how CBS-FM was doing in 25-54 women. My sense is that the "Classic Hits" format is more male oriented, and Citadel has all the male numbers it needs between 97-Rock and The Edge. It would be interesting to see if the CBS-FM results could be duplicated with female listeners by skewing the music, but keeping the same personality-driven approach. I seem to remember a time during the transition away from oldies when Mix was stronger than it is today.
My take on Mix is that they're trying to split the difference between Star and 'JYE. Star has more "rhythmic" songs, and is very much current with its music. 'JYE is playing more than a few '60s classics, and is skewing older. Mix is playing mainly recurrents, and shying away from "Timbaland" and other songs in that genre.
Star is taking an almost full-service approach. They talk more than either Mix or 'JYE, and even have hourly news updates at the bottom of the hour. Having a local news department in the building adds to the value of their content. I personally find Rob Lucas annoying, but I'm not a 25-54 female. Roger Christian is a known quantity who's been doing mid-days for a long time. He's smooth, topical, friendly, and familiar. Sue O'Neil can be very good, although you never know when she's going to get a little snarky - or maybe too snarky. Brian Demay is the new kid on the block, but the first time I heard him I thought that they'd cloned Roger. I'm still not sure that isn't true. John Anthony is local, which has me rooting for him, but I honestly don't hear him - or any evening guy - very often.
'JYE has downgraded their commitment to "added value". I think that their lineup 12-18 months ago was much stronger. Blowing up the morning show - however necessary it may have been from a managerial or personal standpoint - didn't help them. Neither did dumping Mike McQueen, or putting CJ in mid-days by herself. Losing her recently and replacing her with Alexis may be an upgrade, but it still isn't as strong a line-up as it was pre-shakeup. Delilah - as maddening as I may find her - crushes both Star and Mix in the evening. Her numbers pump up 'JYE's 12+ and Mon-Fri 6A-12P numbers enough to make their other dayparts look better.
Mix has a fairly strong lineup of personalities, but doesn't use them much. I agree that Bill Lacy is the stronger personality on the morning show, although I think that Gail has upped her game somewhat recently. I absolutely agree that Jim Pastrick is a pro, who can be smooth as glass and makes very few mistakes when he gets the chance to perform. Val Townsend has a great voice, but its overexposed. She also seems to be very formulaic. I don't know if she's restricted in her approach, or just isn't comfortable personalizing the elements that seem to be scheduled almost every time she opens the mic. The addition of Tesh on Mix is obviously an attempt to break the Delilah lock on 25-54 women. Tesh has successfully challenged Delilah in other markets. I'm guessing that Mix is hoping for similar results after the obviously voice-tracked Joe Siragusa failed to make much of a dent.
'BLK and 'YRK are the other part of the 25-54 women story. Both stations are tied in the morning - way ahead of the 3 AC flavors. 'BLK falls back significantly in mid-days, behind Star and 'JYE, and only a little ahead of Mix. It's more of a horse race between 'YRK, Star, 'BLK, and 'JYE in PM Drive, with Mix a ways behind. 'BLK dominates in the evening, crushing even Delilah on 'JYE and 'YRK.
It might get more interesting if someone took the CBS-FM "Classic Hits" approach to the problem. I wish I knew how CBS-FM was doing in 25-54 women. My sense is that the "Classic Hits" format is more male oriented, and Citadel has all the male numbers it needs between 97-Rock and The Edge. It would be interesting to see if the CBS-FM results could be duplicated with female listeners by skewing the music, but keeping the same personality-driven approach. I seem to remember a time during the transition away from oldies when Mix was stronger than it is today.
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