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Buffalo TV targets Canada
- Thread starter e-dawg
- Start date
> Does Buffalo TV have a sales office in Canada? Also, do they
> have a lot of advertising revenue from Canada. If Buffalo
> combined Toronto into US market,what market rank would
> BUffalo be?
>
I cannot answer your first two questions, but I've heard if you combined Buffalo and Toronto (and all the areas within Ontario's "Golden Horseshoe" which the Buffalo stations penetrate)...then Buffalo would be--are you ready for this??--
The 5th largest US television market
*This is based on figures bandied about when there was talk of Buffalo trying to land a Major League Baseball team in the late 1980's and critics said Buffalo didn't have a large enough TV market. This was the argument used to rebut that.
Granted, we're going back more than 15 years, and Buffalo's population has slipped, but the population of the "Golden Horseshoe" (Basically the area around the far western end of Lake Ontario) continues to grow. In fact, Hamilton is now a larger city than Buffalo.
I've read that 25% of Canada's population lives in this area and is, consequently, within the penetration of the Buffalo TV signal.
Hope that helps.
> have a lot of advertising revenue from Canada. If Buffalo
> combined Toronto into US market,what market rank would
> BUffalo be?
>
I cannot answer your first two questions, but I've heard if you combined Buffalo and Toronto (and all the areas within Ontario's "Golden Horseshoe" which the Buffalo stations penetrate)...then Buffalo would be--are you ready for this??--
The 5th largest US television market
*This is based on figures bandied about when there was talk of Buffalo trying to land a Major League Baseball team in the late 1980's and critics said Buffalo didn't have a large enough TV market. This was the argument used to rebut that.
Granted, we're going back more than 15 years, and Buffalo's population has slipped, but the population of the "Golden Horseshoe" (Basically the area around the far western end of Lake Ontario) continues to grow. In fact, Hamilton is now a larger city than Buffalo.
I've read that 25% of Canada's population lives in this area and is, consequently, within the penetration of the Buffalo TV signal.
Hope that helps.
> > Does Buffalo TV have a sales office in Canada? Also, do
> they
> > have a lot of advertising revenue from Canada.
Don't know about sales offices or ads, though they do target Canadians in some way. One station for sure is PBS affil WNED, which, for the last several years, have been pursuing pledges from Canadian viewers. They even have a Toronto address for suvch a purpose. Their station IDs also mention "Buffalo / Toronto".
> I've heard
> if you combined Buffalo and Toronto then Buffalo would be...
>
> The 5th largest US television market
>
> I've read that 25% of Canada's population lives in this
> area and is, consequently, within the penetration of the
> Buffalo TV signal.
>
But as long as Canada is still its own country, and the simsub law remains in effect, the combination of Buffalo and Toronto would never happen.
In my opinion, even if Canada becomes part of the US, you can bet that CFTO and Global would immediately start pursuing affiliations with American networks and take another law to their advantage -- must-carry and syndex.
> they
> > have a lot of advertising revenue from Canada.
Don't know about sales offices or ads, though they do target Canadians in some way. One station for sure is PBS affil WNED, which, for the last several years, have been pursuing pledges from Canadian viewers. They even have a Toronto address for suvch a purpose. Their station IDs also mention "Buffalo / Toronto".
> I've heard
> if you combined Buffalo and Toronto then Buffalo would be...
>
> The 5th largest US television market
>
> I've read that 25% of Canada's population lives in this
> area and is, consequently, within the penetration of the
> Buffalo TV signal.
>
But as long as Canada is still its own country, and the simsub law remains in effect, the combination of Buffalo and Toronto would never happen.
In my opinion, even if Canada becomes part of the US, you can bet that CFTO and Global would immediately start pursuing affiliations with American networks and take another law to their advantage -- must-carry and syndex.
> Does Buffalo TV have a sales office in Canada? Also, do they
> have a lot of advertising revenue from Canada. If Buffalo
> combined Toronto into US market,what market rank would
> BUffalo be?
My understanding is that the only Buffalo station with an active Canadian sales office of its own is WUTV (Fox). I see some Canadian advertising during the day on WGRZ, WIVB and WKBW, but not much. IIRC, Canadian tax laws were changed a few years back in a way that eliminated deductions for the purchase of advertising on US stations. That dried up the ad flow considerably.
WNED (PBS) markets itself as "Buffalo-Toronto" and actively solicits membership and underwriting money from across the border, but I don't believe they have an office in Canada.
It's important to remember, for those of you outside the region, a point that I've made frequently here: Canadians have their own issues and their own economy and, for the most part, don't care about the nuances of local Buffalo politics. (Nor, since the US dollar pulled ahead of the Canadian dollar in value a generation ago, do Canadians come over here to shop as much as they used to.)
Buffalo and Toronto are truly separate markets, even if they can see and hear a few of the signals from across the border. Nobody's merging anything.
s<P ID="signature">______________
Tower Site Calendar 2005 NOW AVAILABLE! - <a target="_blank" href=http://www.fybush.com/nerw.html#calendar>www.fybush.com</a></P>
> have a lot of advertising revenue from Canada. If Buffalo
> combined Toronto into US market,what market rank would
> BUffalo be?
My understanding is that the only Buffalo station with an active Canadian sales office of its own is WUTV (Fox). I see some Canadian advertising during the day on WGRZ, WIVB and WKBW, but not much. IIRC, Canadian tax laws were changed a few years back in a way that eliminated deductions for the purchase of advertising on US stations. That dried up the ad flow considerably.
WNED (PBS) markets itself as "Buffalo-Toronto" and actively solicits membership and underwriting money from across the border, but I don't believe they have an office in Canada.
It's important to remember, for those of you outside the region, a point that I've made frequently here: Canadians have their own issues and their own economy and, for the most part, don't care about the nuances of local Buffalo politics. (Nor, since the US dollar pulled ahead of the Canadian dollar in value a generation ago, do Canadians come over here to shop as much as they used to.)
Buffalo and Toronto are truly separate markets, even if they can see and hear a few of the signals from across the border. Nobody's merging anything.
s<P ID="signature">______________
Tower Site Calendar 2005 NOW AVAILABLE! - <a target="_blank" href=http://www.fybush.com/nerw.html#calendar>www.fybush.com</a></P>
> *This is based on figures bandied about when there was
> talk of Buffalo trying to land a Major League Baseball team
> in the late 1980's and critics said Buffalo didn't have a
> large enough TV market. This was the argument used to rebut
> that.
----------
That wouldn't have made any sense, as Toronto already had a baseball team by then, the Blue Jays.
> talk of Buffalo trying to land a Major League Baseball team
> in the late 1980's and critics said Buffalo didn't have a
> large enough TV market. This was the argument used to rebut
> that.
----------
That wouldn't have made any sense, as Toronto already had a baseball team by then, the Blue Jays.
J
Joseph_Gallant
Guest
Toronto is not only Canada's number-one television market, it's also Canada's dominant TV market.
How dominant??
One-fourth of Canada's total population lives inside the Toronto market (and one-third of Canada's population lives in the province of Ontario).
That's probably why fans of Canada's other five NHL teams have long complained that Toronto Maple Leafs' games on "Hockey Night In Canada" are seen across so much of the CBC network, even in home cities of one or more of the other five Canadian-based NHL clubs. Sometimes when the local team is in action on a Saturday night, the Leafs' game is shown on the local CBC station instead of the local team's game.
By contrast, I believe that the largest TV market in the U.S., New York, has about seven or eight percent of the total U.S., population.
How dominant??
One-fourth of Canada's total population lives inside the Toronto market (and one-third of Canada's population lives in the province of Ontario).
That's probably why fans of Canada's other five NHL teams have long complained that Toronto Maple Leafs' games on "Hockey Night In Canada" are seen across so much of the CBC network, even in home cities of one or more of the other five Canadian-based NHL clubs. Sometimes when the local team is in action on a Saturday night, the Leafs' game is shown on the local CBC station instead of the local team's game.
By contrast, I believe that the largest TV market in the U.S., New York, has about seven or eight percent of the total U.S., population.
It's not just hockey -- many Canadians outside the GTA are harping at the TV networks because the content and decsions in general tend to rotate around Toronto, rather than spread evenly across Canada. Especially the CBC, whose master control for all their O&Os originate in Toronto, as well as much of their national programming.
> It's not just hockey -- many Canadians outside the GTA are
> harping at the TV networks because the content and decsions
> in general tend to rotate around Toronto, rather than spread
> evenly across Canada. Especially the CBC, whose master
> control for all their O&Os originate in Toronto, as well as
> much of their national programming.
----------
Global is very bad for this. Their system of one originating station in Ontario with rebroadcast stations around the province just doesn't work. I doubt viewers of channel 6 in Ottawa care about "what's in it for Toronto" when there's an announcement made by the provincial government.
> harping at the TV networks because the content and decsions
> in general tend to rotate around Toronto, rather than spread
> evenly across Canada. Especially the CBC, whose master
> control for all their O&Os originate in Toronto, as well as
> much of their national programming.
----------
Global is very bad for this. Their system of one originating station in Ontario with rebroadcast stations around the province just doesn't work. I doubt viewers of channel 6 in Ottawa care about "what's in it for Toronto" when there's an announcement made by the provincial government.
> My understanding is that the only Buffalo station with an
> active Canadian sales office of its own is WUTV (Fox). I see
> some Canadian advertising during the day on WGRZ, WIVB and
> WKBW, but not much. IIRC, Canadian tax laws were changed a
> few years back in a way that eliminated deductions for the
> purchase of advertising on US stations. That dried up the ad
> flow considerably.
-----------
Watertown TV also targeted Canadian viewers a lot more in the past than they do today. WWNY/7 (CBS) had a lot more Canadian ads 10 or 15 years ago than they do now. Also, the Burlington/Plattsburgh stations have always targeted Montreal, and apparently there is still quite a bit of Montreal advertising on those stations, according to TV Hat. WVNY/22 (ABC) IDs as Burlington-Plattsburgh-Montreal, and WFFF/44 (Fox/WB) IDs in the same way.
As for PBS, for a number of years WQLN/54 in Erie has been IDing as "Erie-London". I don't think they have any offices in the London area, but they have targeted the London-St. Thomas audience. During fundraising telethons they often advertised a couple places in London, and they had a contest about southwestern Ontario history about 12 years ago. Unlike some PBS stations though, there is little or no programming aimed solely at the Canadian viewers. WPBS/WNPI in upstate New York on the other hand has had some programming over the years aimed at eastern Ontario, and Prairie Public Television in North Dakota has quite a bit of programming about Winnipeg and southern Manitoba.
> active Canadian sales office of its own is WUTV (Fox). I see
> some Canadian advertising during the day on WGRZ, WIVB and
> WKBW, but not much. IIRC, Canadian tax laws were changed a
> few years back in a way that eliminated deductions for the
> purchase of advertising on US stations. That dried up the ad
> flow considerably.
-----------
Watertown TV also targeted Canadian viewers a lot more in the past than they do today. WWNY/7 (CBS) had a lot more Canadian ads 10 or 15 years ago than they do now. Also, the Burlington/Plattsburgh stations have always targeted Montreal, and apparently there is still quite a bit of Montreal advertising on those stations, according to TV Hat. WVNY/22 (ABC) IDs as Burlington-Plattsburgh-Montreal, and WFFF/44 (Fox/WB) IDs in the same way.
As for PBS, for a number of years WQLN/54 in Erie has been IDing as "Erie-London". I don't think they have any offices in the London area, but they have targeted the London-St. Thomas audience. During fundraising telethons they often advertised a couple places in London, and they had a contest about southwestern Ontario history about 12 years ago. Unlike some PBS stations though, there is little or no programming aimed solely at the Canadian viewers. WPBS/WNPI in upstate New York on the other hand has had some programming over the years aimed at eastern Ontario, and Prairie Public Television in North Dakota has quite a bit of programming about Winnipeg and southern Manitoba.
> >
> ----------
> That wouldn't have made any sense, as Toronto already had a
> baseball team by then, the Blue Jays.
Yeah, well New York and Chicago are in the same city and they have two baseball teams,...I understand they are markets 1 & 3 respectively,..but couldn't this theoretic market #5 accomodate two teams? Especially if they are at opposit ends of said market? it made a lot of sense to the people "pitching" for baseball in Buffalo...Just a thought.
>
> ----------
> That wouldn't have made any sense, as Toronto already had a
> baseball team by then, the Blue Jays.
Yeah, well New York and Chicago are in the same city and they have two baseball teams,...I understand they are markets 1 & 3 respectively,..but couldn't this theoretic market #5 accomodate two teams? Especially if they are at opposit ends of said market? it made a lot of sense to the people "pitching" for baseball in Buffalo...Just a thought.
>
> Watertown TV also targeted Canadian viewers a lot more in
> the past than they do today. WWNY/7 (CBS) had a lot more
> Canadian ads 10 or 15 years ago than they do now. Also, the
> Burlington/Plattsburgh stations have always targeted
> Montreal, and apparently there is still quite a bit of
> Montreal advertising on those stations, according to TV Hat.
> WVNY/22 (ABC) IDs as Burlington-Plattsburgh-Montreal, and
> WFFF/44 (Fox/WB) IDs in the same way.
The Montreal market (and beyond - these signals are distributed on cable to almost all of Quebec) is so much larger than Burlington-Plattsburgh, and even now so underserved by local signals (especially for Anglophone viewers), that it makes sense for the Burlington stations to go after ad dollars there. That's especially true for WVNY and WFFF, which have never had the kind of loyal local news audience south of the border that WCAX and WPTZ enjoy.
WWNY's big problem is a lack of cable carriage in Canada. It's barely seen outside Kingston and possibly Brockville. (Ottawa for many years got Rochester, via a microwave relay from somewhere around Deseronto. It now gets Buffalo or Detroit, by satellite. I still see the occasional ad on Rochester TV that gives an Ottawa phone number, out of habit. And WUHF has satellite/cable carriage across much of Canada, sadly for the Canadians.)
> As for PBS, for a number of years WQLN/54 in Erie has been
> IDing as "Erie-London". I don't think they have any offices
> in the London area, but they have targeted the London-St.
> Thomas audience. During fundraising telethons they often
> advertised a couple places in London, and they had a contest
> about southwestern Ontario history about 12 years ago.
> Unlike some PBS stations though, there is little or no
> programming aimed solely at the Canadian viewers. WPBS/WNPI
> in upstate New York on the other hand has had some
> programming over the years aimed at eastern Ontario, and
> Prairie Public Television in North Dakota has quite a bit of
> programming about Winnipeg and southern Manitoba.
Where Canada is concerned, the economic situation for public TV is different. It's much easier to solicit individual pledges than it is to get businesses to advertise, when that advertising on a U.S. station may no longer be tax-deductible. (I think the Burlington/Plattsburgh stations are still just so much cheaper to buy time on that it outweighs the tax disadvantage in Montreal.)
The PBS stations also have the advantage of unique programming. Most commercial US network programming in Canada is now "sim-subbed" on cable, with cable operators replacing the US feed with a simulcast of the Canadian network that's also carrying that show at the same time. That doesn't happen with PBS, and there's really no direct equivalent to PBS in Canada. (TVO and Tele-Quebec are funded mainly by the government, not by viewers, and the CBC, though government-supported, sells ad time.)
WXXI still gets some support from Canadian viewers, though the cable audience is limited to Belleville and vicinity. WCFE in Plattsburgh depends very heavily on its Montreal audience for support, as does Vermont Public TV to a more limited extent.<P ID="signature">______________
Tower Site Calendar 2005 NOW AVAILABLE! - <a target="_blank" href=http://www.fybush.com/nerw.html#calendar>www.fybush.com</a></P>
> the past than they do today. WWNY/7 (CBS) had a lot more
> Canadian ads 10 or 15 years ago than they do now. Also, the
> Burlington/Plattsburgh stations have always targeted
> Montreal, and apparently there is still quite a bit of
> Montreal advertising on those stations, according to TV Hat.
> WVNY/22 (ABC) IDs as Burlington-Plattsburgh-Montreal, and
> WFFF/44 (Fox/WB) IDs in the same way.
The Montreal market (and beyond - these signals are distributed on cable to almost all of Quebec) is so much larger than Burlington-Plattsburgh, and even now so underserved by local signals (especially for Anglophone viewers), that it makes sense for the Burlington stations to go after ad dollars there. That's especially true for WVNY and WFFF, which have never had the kind of loyal local news audience south of the border that WCAX and WPTZ enjoy.
WWNY's big problem is a lack of cable carriage in Canada. It's barely seen outside Kingston and possibly Brockville. (Ottawa for many years got Rochester, via a microwave relay from somewhere around Deseronto. It now gets Buffalo or Detroit, by satellite. I still see the occasional ad on Rochester TV that gives an Ottawa phone number, out of habit. And WUHF has satellite/cable carriage across much of Canada, sadly for the Canadians.)
> As for PBS, for a number of years WQLN/54 in Erie has been
> IDing as "Erie-London". I don't think they have any offices
> in the London area, but they have targeted the London-St.
> Thomas audience. During fundraising telethons they often
> advertised a couple places in London, and they had a contest
> about southwestern Ontario history about 12 years ago.
> Unlike some PBS stations though, there is little or no
> programming aimed solely at the Canadian viewers. WPBS/WNPI
> in upstate New York on the other hand has had some
> programming over the years aimed at eastern Ontario, and
> Prairie Public Television in North Dakota has quite a bit of
> programming about Winnipeg and southern Manitoba.
Where Canada is concerned, the economic situation for public TV is different. It's much easier to solicit individual pledges than it is to get businesses to advertise, when that advertising on a U.S. station may no longer be tax-deductible. (I think the Burlington/Plattsburgh stations are still just so much cheaper to buy time on that it outweighs the tax disadvantage in Montreal.)
The PBS stations also have the advantage of unique programming. Most commercial US network programming in Canada is now "sim-subbed" on cable, with cable operators replacing the US feed with a simulcast of the Canadian network that's also carrying that show at the same time. That doesn't happen with PBS, and there's really no direct equivalent to PBS in Canada. (TVO and Tele-Quebec are funded mainly by the government, not by viewers, and the CBC, though government-supported, sells ad time.)
WXXI still gets some support from Canadian viewers, though the cable audience is limited to Belleville and vicinity. WCFE in Plattsburgh depends very heavily on its Montreal audience for support, as does Vermont Public TV to a more limited extent.<P ID="signature">______________
Tower Site Calendar 2005 NOW AVAILABLE! - <a target="_blank" href=http://www.fybush.com/nerw.html#calendar>www.fybush.com</a></P>
G
geolee
Guest
Buffalo TV targets Canada - gosh, better be careful ...
Kindly remember, Canada is a foreign country. Canadians do not think the same way as our southern neighbours. There is much that is similar and much that is different. Some people go back and forth between our two nations - some on both side rarely if ever cross that line. There is a population difference of about ten to one. We like being friends, but it does not wish we want to be part of your country - our national histories are different.
When baseball went to Montreal in 1969, the odds on favourite was Buffalo, not Montreal; yes a team in Toronto and Buffalo would work. Approximately ten percent of the seats in Orchard Park are filled with Canadians... As far as FOX television is concerned, the world ends where the territorial limits of the US are. Afterall the NFL Winners are the 'world champions of the US' in other words NFL is not coming to Toronto; it might leave Buffalo and go to Los Angeles... then folks from both Toronto and Buffalo would be saddened.
There are about six to seven million people from Oshawa to Hamilton and round the corner to Fort Erie. There are many people who still trace their ancestry to the "United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland" as well as those from The Republic of Ireland. So the English fare from WNED, which is getting very old, is popular. For more modern TV from England, try CICA/CICO or TVO. the third language stations CFMT-47 and CJMT-69 prove that there is more to the confusion that is Toronto - it is not a melting pot. Spanish is not a factor, but Italian and Mandarin are... there are about five or six non-English stations in T.O.
Toronto area also has a strong 'third language' element as well; the second being French (which is small). For example: half the Jewish population of Ontario lives in the GTA, and they are half of the Canadian Jewish population. The only nicnames Torontonians like for their city are: T.O., or Hogtown.
Let us stay friends, and not argue about the small stuff.
Kindly remember, Canada is a foreign country. Canadians do not think the same way as our southern neighbours. There is much that is similar and much that is different. Some people go back and forth between our two nations - some on both side rarely if ever cross that line. There is a population difference of about ten to one. We like being friends, but it does not wish we want to be part of your country - our national histories are different.
When baseball went to Montreal in 1969, the odds on favourite was Buffalo, not Montreal; yes a team in Toronto and Buffalo would work. Approximately ten percent of the seats in Orchard Park are filled with Canadians... As far as FOX television is concerned, the world ends where the territorial limits of the US are. Afterall the NFL Winners are the 'world champions of the US' in other words NFL is not coming to Toronto; it might leave Buffalo and go to Los Angeles... then folks from both Toronto and Buffalo would be saddened.
There are about six to seven million people from Oshawa to Hamilton and round the corner to Fort Erie. There are many people who still trace their ancestry to the "United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland" as well as those from The Republic of Ireland. So the English fare from WNED, which is getting very old, is popular. For more modern TV from England, try CICA/CICO or TVO. the third language stations CFMT-47 and CJMT-69 prove that there is more to the confusion that is Toronto - it is not a melting pot. Spanish is not a factor, but Italian and Mandarin are... there are about five or six non-English stations in T.O.
Toronto area also has a strong 'third language' element as well; the second being French (which is small). For example: half the Jewish population of Ontario lives in the GTA, and they are half of the Canadian Jewish population. The only nicnames Torontonians like for their city are: T.O., or Hogtown.
Let us stay friends, and not argue about the small stuff.
J
Joe_G
Guest
> WWNY's big problem is a lack of cable carriage in Canada.
> It's barely seen outside Kingston and possibly Brockville.
> (Ottawa for many years got Rochester, via a microwave relay
> from somewhere around Deseronto. It now gets Buffalo or
> Detroit, by satellite. I still see the occasional ad on
> Rochester TV that gives an Ottawa phone number, out of
> habit. And WUHF has satellite/cable carriage across much of
> Canada, sadly for the Canadians.)
Belleville got WWNY on cable until this year. While I personally miss watching that station, there were some signal problems, caused by some pretty serious interference from WKBW-TV Buffalo. The Ottawa area now gets CBS, NBC, ABC and Fox from Detroit, while they still get PBS via WNPI Norwood, NY, the rebroadcaster for WPBS Watertown. In the latter years of Rochester's carriage on Ottawa cable, apparently the microwave source was not from Deseronto, but from Rochester itself. The microwave feed went from Pinnacle Hill in Brighton to Grand Island, between Buffalo and Niagara Falls. From there it was a fiber optic link all the way to Ottawa. WUTVs signal also used this fiber optic line.
> WXXI still gets some support from Canadian viewers, though
> the cable audience is limited to Belleville and vicinity.
WXXI is still carried in Belleville and vicinity, yes. It is also carried in Cobourg and Port Hope. It used to be carried in Lakefield, Millbrook, Picton and Campbellford, at least. I have heard Belleville being mentioned in pledge drives, so WXXI gets a respectable audience there. Although, it would obviously still be puny compared to, lets say, WNEDs audience in Toronto or WPBSs in Ottawa.
> It's barely seen outside Kingston and possibly Brockville.
> (Ottawa for many years got Rochester, via a microwave relay
> from somewhere around Deseronto. It now gets Buffalo or
> Detroit, by satellite. I still see the occasional ad on
> Rochester TV that gives an Ottawa phone number, out of
> habit. And WUHF has satellite/cable carriage across much of
> Canada, sadly for the Canadians.)
Belleville got WWNY on cable until this year. While I personally miss watching that station, there were some signal problems, caused by some pretty serious interference from WKBW-TV Buffalo. The Ottawa area now gets CBS, NBC, ABC and Fox from Detroit, while they still get PBS via WNPI Norwood, NY, the rebroadcaster for WPBS Watertown. In the latter years of Rochester's carriage on Ottawa cable, apparently the microwave source was not from Deseronto, but from Rochester itself. The microwave feed went from Pinnacle Hill in Brighton to Grand Island, between Buffalo and Niagara Falls. From there it was a fiber optic link all the way to Ottawa. WUTVs signal also used this fiber optic line.
> WXXI still gets some support from Canadian viewers, though
> the cable audience is limited to Belleville and vicinity.
WXXI is still carried in Belleville and vicinity, yes. It is also carried in Cobourg and Port Hope. It used to be carried in Lakefield, Millbrook, Picton and Campbellford, at least. I have heard Belleville being mentioned in pledge drives, so WXXI gets a respectable audience there. Although, it would obviously still be puny compared to, lets say, WNEDs audience in Toronto or WPBSs in Ottawa.
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