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Build quality Omnia .9

R

richard.vanderveen

First of all: I love Breakaway (licensed both BL and BBP) and I am truly amazed by the quality of sound produced by a well configured Omnia .9. (BTW: I also like the Orban products)
When Omnia .9 was announced the fact that it had a Breakaway core and runs on Windows shook up the tree and once again fired up the well known discussions about computer driven solutions in a demanding broadcast environment. Some engineers wouldn't give it a second thought and put it on air, some would cut of a finger before leaving the dedicated hardware based environment.

At the end of this year or at the start of 2013 I need a processor for a new station. My initial thoughts were BBP with a Marian Trace card and a workstation grade PC running on XPPro from an SSD. Then I heard and saw the Omnia .9 and thought about trying to get the budget for it. Yes, I trust computers ;-) But the last few weeks a discussion started about the buildquality of Omnia .9. Why? Because of the pictures in a thread on the Breakaway Forum.

The thread is started by somebody who in my mind can only be described as a troll. But when both Leif and Frank Foti (the real one, not Frank Fotti) joined the discussion and confirmed these pictures were indeed taken from a production Omnia .9 and not from some sort of prototype I was shocked. Why the long cables? Why the DVI-VGA adapter, why the 'fast-and-easy' type of use of tiewraps and glue? Why? I would not accept this buildquality in a self-build Breakaway Workstation. Should I accept it in a $10.000 audioprocessor doing it's job on a remote location? This is not a rant against Breakaway, Omnia or Leif. I am just surprised by the insides of the Omnia .9 and the fact that the discussion has not been picked up here yet. I would really like to read some more in-depth opinions than the ones in the original thread.

This is the thread on the Breakaway Forum.
 
$10,000 is a lot of money for a small market broadcaster.
 
Those pictures are interesting. The processor is truly just a computer running XP. I'm a little surprised to see a basic MB with cables plugged in because I had assumed that more of it was custom built. Well, that should eliminate some fear from folks about deploying a computer-based processor.

Frankly, I've never seen a problem with running PC-based processing at a remote site. If the computer is configured as an "appliance" it should be extremely stable (appliance = built and configured to perform one function only).

If you're satisfied with the "sound" of Breakaway, stick with it and save yourself some money. You can always build yourself a custom box, similar to the Omnia 9.

I recognize the SSD, MB, and power supply. What is the board at the rear of the box?
 
We all knew going in this was and is a computer running embedded Windows XP.

So why is everyone on this and the Breakaway forum surprised it looks like a PC on the inside?? It IS a PC!!!

As far as the cables bundled with tie wraps, okay, maybe they can be dressed up with some split loom tubing. But if you start hacking at the cables, replacing connectors, customizing, then the price goes up. I'd rather have it look like a hardened PC, with dual power supplies and the SSD. I have one on at a client station since March, and it's been humming along just fine. I also have an 11 at another client and have done the two SD card upgrades to get it current. No you no longer need to update the SD card, it can be flashed like the One. But guess what's inside? A few boards and come Cat5e patch cables and such... because this too is mostly a PC.

In the end, the have both been rock solid reliable, the support from Omnia excellent and the most important thing... they both sound GREAT on the air.

Honestly, anyone still building using a DSP only design is merely limiting themselves. A PC board can always be upgraded with a new CPU for cheap and now the box is "more powerful". Easier than adding Motorola DSPs all over the place.

I think computers have matured now and we shouldn't worry about them as much. They run everything. This site. The cash registers where you bought groceries, your bank, your car, your phone, medical equipment keeping people alive, all of your playout on your automation system... I don't get why people are afraid of one processing the audio that has already played out of multiple PCs and over a LAN!!
 
WNTIRadio said:
We all knew going in this was and is a computer running embedded Windows XP.

So why is everyone on this and the Breakaway forum surprised it looks like a PC on the inside?? It IS a PC!!!
Click to expand...

I was surprised mostly by the off-the-shelf components because I had assumed the box contained custom built components. I was also surprised by the build itself. Someone completing their first computer build could do a better job; I expect a cleaner box, given its high price. All said, however, the bottom line is how it functions. In that regard, it's definitely a winner.

I hope folks are willing to better accept PC based processing. Many have feared using Breakaway because it's PC based. These pictures will hopefully change their minds.
 
I'm concerned about what type of virus protection will be needed since this is a Windows platform. The way this looks, I'd rather have one well made power supply than two in a box built like this
 
I really like Omnia procucts, but these pictures are disappointing. If I wanted a PC running Breakaway, I would buy a PC and run Breakaway and save $8k. I read Leif's explanation for the glue and zip ties, but the fact that it even NEEDS glue and zip ties should have been a big red flag at Omnia. I think I even saw an adapter on the video connection. Someone should have put the brakes on this until they could at least build the proper video cables and hard wire the connections, instead of gluing the connectors.
 
We've paid extreme attention to all the parts that matter. Triple ball-bearing fans, dual-redundant hot swappable power supplies, good RFI shielding.

Software wise, the multiband processing is indeed the breakaway multiband core, with a large number of modifications and improvements, while the input (undo) and output (clipper) stages are completely custom developed for the Omnia.9.

Choosing as many off the shelf parts as possible means higher performance, higher reliability, lower price (to the customer), and faster release. It means avoiding reinventing the wheel. The I/O board is indeed custom, because there was no off-the-shelf solution that performed well enough. If there had been, we could have used it, offered the same functionality at an even lower price, and saved ourself a lot of headaches. But, alas, there wasn't.

We have not paid as much attention to things that do not affect the performance of the product, such as cables inside the unit having 90 degree straight angles. Although certain audiophiles may tell you differently, this does not affect performance. Cable ties and glue are a reality if the units are to survive rough handling in shipping. DVI to VGA adapter -- seriously? Why would this be a problem? A custom cable could increase the price by several hundred dollars. I think it's safe to say that most of our customers would not have appreciated this.

In short, we've spent all our effort on things that matter and little on things that don't. If we had done it differently, couldn't it be argued that we didn't have our priorities straight?

Best regards,
Leif Claesson
 
Leif and Frank Foti-

You're both very correct that what really matters is the quality of the parts and it's overall stability. I don't think anyone is challenging the use of off-the-shelf parts. After all, if they are quality and work as intended, why not use them?

I can't speak for others, but for me, I was just simply a little surprised to see a MB with cables attached. Nothing wrong with that configuration, provided it's assembled for the ages. Being ignorant of the inside of the 9 and 11, I had expected to see custom parts. Again, nothing at all wrong with off-the-shelf; I just didn't realize how much of a PC these boxes truly were. I do think, however, that the assembly could be cleaner.

Finally, I've really enjoyed the posts from the two of you. I'm glad that you're able to accept constructive criticism without getting frustrated.
 
It's running an embedded form of Windows XP, and all the ports are closed off except the remote control software. You can't even ping the thing. As far as the outside internet is concerned, it doesn't exist. If you also put it behind a firewall and forward the proper port, nothing is going to get in.

The 11 runs Linux for the front panel and Java for the remote control... that could also be hacked if someone REALLY wanted to do it. Same for an 8600. But seriously, who's going to do that? Are the Iranians going to put the effort in to hack our audio processors and make our favorite stations sound bad? The point of a virus is to spread it as far and wide as possible. A few hundred audio processors isn't worth their time.

The 9 has a SSD and dual power supplies. Just as reliable as your server that holds your entire music library and spots and doles them out to your workstations. I still don't get the abject fear of a PC type appliance doing the audio processing when the rest of the radio station is on computers. Hell, I'd be more worried about "what if my automation system gets a virus" than my audio processor sitting all by itself at the transmitter site.
 
How would you even troubleshoot it if you can't ping it? And as a box that needs to be on your network to control it remotely, it's a huge deal. In a modern facility it's not alone at the transmitter. The difference between my music server and my processor is that I have backups for that that are identical. I don't have an identical backup for the 9 unless I spend 18k. If the other boxes are Linux, why can't this? Linux is far superior to any Windows platform. I'd rather have a purpose built processor over off the shelf. There has to be hardware value. :)
 
Although you can't ping it, you can talk to the built HTTP server. It will respond with a 403 error if you're not on the white list, but then at least you know you're talking to it, and that the IP is configured correctly. In fact, the IP configuration page on the front panel even says that ping is not supported, use http.

Blocking ping is probably being overzealous about security on my part, but I figured, better safe than sorry. In hindsight, I'm glad I did, if nothing other than for discussions like this one.
 
konbaasiang said:
Although you can't ping it, you can talk to the built HTTP server. It will respond with a 403 error if you're not on the white list, but then at least you know you're talking to it, and that the IP is configured correctly. In fact, the IP configuration page on the front panel even says that ping is not supported, use http.

Blocking ping is probably being overzealous about security on my part, but I figured, better safe than sorry. In hindsight, I'm glad I did, if nothing other than for discussions like this one.
Click to expand...

And if you ask me, your processor, playout and other broadcast related system that talk TCP/IP/UDP should be on a seperatle (v)lan. And only certain workstations on specific ports and protocol should be alowed. Network security basics.
 
This is an interesting discussion regarding computer motherboards inside the broadcast environment. There are quite a few broadcast products, today, that use PC motherboards. Actually, if you want to be really technical about it, all digital based stuff is one form or another of a PC.

All of them use some form of BIOS, operating system, RAM, and somewhere inside are the hooks for all of the PC peripheral devices. Even the purpose built DSP machines, and we make those too, have the same issues. Aside from our gear, if you have anything else digital in your plant, you do have a device with PC genetics.

-Frank Foti
 
FFoti1 said:
This is an interesting discussion regarding computer motherboards inside the broadcast environment. There are quite a few broadcast products, today, that use PC motherboards. Actually, if you want to be really technical about it, all digital based stuff is one form or another of a PC. All of them use some form of BIOS, operating system, RAM, and somewhere inside are the hooks for all of the PC peripheral devices. Even the purpose built DSP machines, and we make those too, have the same issues. Aside from our gear, if you have anything else digital in your plant, you do have a device with PC genetics.

-Frank Foti
Click to expand...
The discussion is starting to slide away from what I intended. That there is a motherboard inside the O.9 and that it is a PC running on XP is not my concern. Like I stated before, I am not afraid of computers performing 'broadcastduties'. What does worry me a bit is how this PC is put together. It doesn't look anything like for example an Omnia 8x or Telos Zephyr iPort which are basically the same Linux PC's and get their different functionality from the firmware as well... The Omnia 3 and 6 look and feel like they are build to last. I have no real experience with the O11. But I think that if (a different cooler and) custom cables would have made the O.9 more expensive ($1000?) it nevertheless would have been the right decision.
 
richard.vanderveen said:
This is an interesting discussion regarding computer
The discussion is starting to slide away from what I intended. That there is a motherboard inside the O.9 and that it is a PC running on XP is not my concern. Like I stated before, I am not afraid of computers performing 'broadcastduties'. What does worry me a bit is how this PC is put together. It doesn't look anything like for example an Omnia 8x or Telos Zephyr iPort which are basically the same Linux PC's and get their different functionality from the firmware as well... The Omnia 3 and 6 look and feel like they are build to last. I have no real experience with the O11. But I think that if (a different cooler and) custom cables would have made the O.9 more expensive ($1000?) it nevertheless would have been the right decision.
Click to expand...

Richard,

Two things...

First, and of which is most important to you, we are addressing this issue. I just came back from our Production Dept, and they were already on this. It'll show up in later production runs of Omnia.9.

Second, we understand there's still some who wonder about the use of PC motherboards in broadcast products. It's a worthy question/discussion.

-Frank Foti
 
YEAR: 1997 - - The Continental 802D-1 exciter was a PC motherboard based exciter, yes?

The 802D-1 performed well for years in competitive markets and in very harsh environmental and RF environments, less correcting some bugs with its LCD freezing up in the early release models.

Continental history confirms the 802D-1 was introduced back in 1997.
http://www.contelec.com/chfm.htm

So we have at least 16 years of PC based equipment in the RF plant environment?

And a PC based exciter like the 802D-1.... I'd fear that much more than a PC based processor.

I had two 802D-1's in Dallas and used them fearlessly and without a UPS. I never saw them hang up on a transient power interruption restart. Although, my newer and non-PC based Optimod 8400 would hang up frequently after transient power interruptions. It required a dedicated UPS for assurance of restart. I found that out the hard way, in the middle of the night.

Wasn't there also a PC based FM exciter designed by Glen Clark for CCA? Seems I've heard of this project but have never seen one. Don't know if it was ever produced. That may predate the 802D-1.
 
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