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Build quality Omnia .9

konbaasiang said:
I guarantee on my honor that we will never do anything of the sort. It would never even cross my mind. I chose to base the audio processor on Windows XP Embedded. It was my decision, I fully stand by it, and it is nobody elses problem. I wouldn't have chosen it if I thought for a second it would cause problems down the line. The advantage is that I've been able to develop the huge number of unique features in the Omnia.9 rapidly -- not to mention the on-air sound quality, and that is ultimately what matters the most.
Click to expand...

This is my only issue, and it has nothing to do with you, but with XP and it's support lifecycle:

"On April 8, 2014, all support for Windows XP, including security updates and hotfixes, will be terminated. Users will still be able to download old updates and hotfixes from Windows Update. Microsoft recommends that users upgrade to Windows 7."

Why base the 9 on a OS that Microsoft wanted dead and buried back in 2007? Breakaway runs great on Windows 7...why not use that? I like XP, but that OS now needs to be put out to pasture unless you have a piece of software that will not work without it. Did the sound engine in 7 really cause that many issues?
 
It shouldn't be that hard to have it transition to Windows 7 Embedded in the future. It can be a package download/install to do that.

That's the beauty of a standards based unit. It's a PC, so upgrading the OS and the 9 software isn't re-inventing the wheel because of special code to execute the audio processing engine on dedicated DSP's.

The XP Embedded doesn't have an end of life notice yet either. Just XP Pro and Home and the other full featured variants.
 
They'll be selling Windows XP Embedded SP3 until November 14, 2023... only 3 years before the "Product Distribution End Date" of Windows Embedded Standard 7 SP1. Microsoft doesn't sell stuff they don't support.

If such an update/hotpatch ever comes out, that fixes any problematic "bug" or any security holes in the system as configured, Omnia is on it. Right Frank? Personally I don't see such a bug or hole happening at this point, the network stack as configured should be hard as rock.

As far as Windows 7... the 9 was developed on it, and Leif had to go back and re-optimize the threading engine within the 9 because the threading engine within XP is so much inferior to 7's that there was "issues" with the GUI interacting with the audio (aka glitching). It's working smoother than butter now though. So yeah, kinda the opposite of what your question was asking.
 
I was going to use WES7 (Windows Embedded Standard 7) for the 9. In fact, the 9 was developed in Windows 7!
I had the final hardware, things were working, I got the master image done. Then, to finalize the master image (the one that would be cloned), I enabled EWF (Embedded Write Filter) -- a part of embedded windows that stores all disk writes in ram rather than letting them write to the disk. This way, the state of the operating system is persistent, nothing will wear out over time, and suddenly pulling the power cable doesn't cause problems. All important things for a plug-and-play processing solution.

When enabling EWF, all of a sudden I had severe audio glitches. Turned out that EWF in WES7 causes extreme DPC latency.. Essentially it will sometimes just sit there and hog the CPU without letting anything else run.

So, with 5 days until I was supposed to fly to the US for the first beta installation, I had to make a choice. Try to contact Microsoft and get a fix, or revert to XP embedded since I know that EWF works perfectly there (which would mean splitting the O9 into two processes and rewriting my entire I/O back-end from scratch, to get around the threading limitations in XP).

Considering that I just heard back from the right person at Microsoft regarding this issue yesterday -- that is, 8 months after the fact, I'm quite happy with my choice.

So, I bit the bullet and did it. Had I had any choice whatsoever, I would have said it was impossible to do the work in the allotted time, but I really didn't -- Omnia.9 needed to be released. So, I did it the only way I could which didn't require waiting for anyone else. And, it worked! The 9 performed beautifully on the air at that first beta installation. Heck, that same 9 is still there. We did update the software just a couple of time since then though :).

All that being said, I'd love to use WES7 in future products. Splitting it into two processes (one doing all audio i/o + low latency studio processing, the other doing all the main processing + tcp/ip interface) was a real PITA, so it will be nice not to have to spend time on that. For the 9 the work is already done, so it's probably better leaving it as is, as we would not be able to change the operating system without re-cloning the flash drives. Having 9s out there with two different operating system versions is probably asking for trouble.

///Leif
 
Besides, with an embedded OS, who cares if Microsoft has now end-of-life'd it? There should not be any need to "upgrade" or "update" the OS on an embedded device. Sure, the app may/can be updated, but why on earth would you invite trouble by messing with the OS if it is working acceptably?
 
More importantly, as Leif has described, their "support" isn't worth much anyway. I'd like patches for computers put on the internet for browsing, but otherwise I really have no need for "Mirosoft Support", or should I say the lack-of.
 
I installed a 9 and honestly, I never thought about opening it. Except for the power supply (s), what is there in there that I can replace off the shelf? It does what I want and does it reliably. It's like a transmitter site...I build 'em to be reliable and run efficiently. The days of the Better Homes and Gardens Beautiful Transmitter tours are long gone. I'm not sure why what the insides of a processor look like should be any different as long as it's as close to bulletproof as the state of the art permits. Based on Leif's assessment, I'm confident that it is.
 
The funniest thing about all of the concern about "using a computer" for an audio processor is that we originate audio on automation systems. It doesn't seem to bother us to do that. Also, many stations now how the flawed technology known as IBOC/HD radio where it runs through yet another computer. Many people have trouble with them, but it's more likely to be iBiquity than anything else. LOL!
 
I know, I've been saying it all along. Everything else at the station comes from "a computer". Seems only natural that this would happen sooner rather than later.

A lot of exciters are computers too. One site has a Nautel NV2.5, guess what the guts of that are (except the actual RF components)?
 
Sgeirk said:
The only thing that likes change is a wet baby...that said, if change is good, radio is heaven...

Adapt or die.
Click to expand...

I have no problem with the Omnia 9 being based on a computer, or even on a Windows PC platform. My problem is with the somewhat sketchy choice of components and amateurish method of construction, especially in context of the $10k price tag. Engineers like to have a product that is neatly wired, well laid out, and easy to service when the time comes for repair. But I know Frank said he is addressing these concerns, so I look forward to seeing the results.
 
WNTIRadio said:
One site has a Nautel NV2.5, guess what the guts of that are (except the actual RF components)?
Click to expand...
And how comfortable would you still be with it if you discovered oversized and wound up powerlines and RF cables tiewrapped and glued to the bottom? And an adapterplug connected to the mainboard because there wasn't a stockcable with the right connector. Because that's wat this is about, not the fact that it is a computer.

Sorry Leif and Frank to go there again, you both handled this gracefully and I'm sure future 9's will look different/better.
But why do so many people keep going back to the 'it's a computer' issue? Yes it is, but that's not the point!
 
richard.vanderveen said:
WNTIRadio said:
One site has a Nautel NV2.5, guess what the guts of that are (except the actual RF components)?
Click to expand...
And how comfortable would you still be with it if you discovered oversized and wound up powerlines and RF cables tiewrapped and glued to the bottom? And an adapterplug connected to the mainboard because there wasn't a stockcable with the right connector. Because that's wat this is about, not the fact that it is a computer.

Sorry Leif and Frank to go there again, you both handled this gracefully and I'm sure future 9's will look different/better.
But why do so many people keep going back to the 'it's a computer' issue? Yes it is, but that's not the point!
Click to expand...

Richard,

While I know you started this thread about build quality, somehow it got split into two separate discussions. Hopefully the group knows, and understands, we'll have a look at this issue. Maybe that topic can be put to rest.

Regarding the PC topic, seems that morphed into the thread. The points about off-the-shelf PC's living in the day-to-day broadcast environment are legit, and Omnia.9 is not the first product to follow that lead. Also, many other prior products that employed off-the-shelf PC's were priced significantly higher than if they had been built by the broadcaster themselves.

-Frank Foti
 
I demo'd the 9, was very impressed, I pulled the cover, had a look, covered it back up, didn't really give it any more thought. Sadly, the owner decided not to purchase.

I wouldn't be too scared of PC anything as long as its on stable hardware. My day job is running an ISP. Our core router is a dell server running mikrotik routerOS (linux). It just passed 365 days of uptime recently and would have kept on going except I needed to update software to fix a couple bugs. I had a client one time that had an old Novell server on Compaq hardware that ran for 13 years with no maintenance, wasn't called in until it was dead, new power supply and a few minutes and it was right back in business. I generally see that hardware is not so much the issue, its the software, as long as inferior hardware is not used.

Stephen
 
Gents,

I would be very very shocked to open up a 10K device which looked like this. No matter if it sounds great, it gives me the shivers.
Sorry, but for me it does. Leif, please stick to the software. Programmers are no hardware designers and vice versa.


BR
 
I am sticking with software. I designed the software in the Omnia.9, not the hardware.

Fugazi, if you are saying that what the box looks like on the inside is more important than what it sounds like on the air, then I really don't know what to tell you.

//Leif
 
As long as the construction of the unit is solid (it is) and reliable (so far no issues in 4 months) then I really don't care if there's an adapter for the video output as long as it is secured in place and won't fail.
 
Idea for v2.0- HDMI out so you can hook it up to a big screen TV. Cause it'd look cool as hell to have the processor screen up on the wall in the studio. At the very least all the meters moving might impress the GM if they were on a 42 inch TV ;D
 
Turnpike Tuner said:
Idea for v2.0- HDMI out so you can hook it up to a big screen TV. Cause it'd look cool as hell to have the processor screen up on the wall in the studio. At the very least all the meters moving might impress the GM if they were on a 42 inch TV ;D
Click to expand...
I'm guessing this can be arranged through the remote control? ;)
 
Turnpike Tuner said:
Idea for v2.0- HDMI out so you can hook it up to a big screen TV. Cause it'd look cool as hell to have the processor screen up on the wall in the studio. At the very least all the meters moving might impress the GM if they were on a 42 inch TV ;D
Click to expand...
The display on the remote from 12 miles way is eye candy deluxe. Hook your computer to the 42" TV and drool!
 
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