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BURLINGTON RATINGS: Where's WVMT-620?

I haven't seen the numbers but if my memory serves me correctly, WVMT never performs. Only thing they have going for them is UVM Hockey.
 
I find it very interesting that one Hall station is listed but none of the others. Did WJOY "slip through the cracks"? Burlington books were embargoed for a long time thanks to Hall Communications.
 
Did not see 95 Triple X in there either, looks that group does not subscribe to the "Big A" either.
 
I understand why Arbitron does not want non-subscribers using their information, but there's no question that Arbitron would be better off embargoing the market rather than just de-listing non-subscribers.

Not only does their policy make Arbitron's research look suspect, but it also gives the mistaken impression to the business world that you've gotta pay for your numbers.

This policy will bite Arbitron deeply in the gluteus maximus.

Live and learn. Or will they?
 
OK, i have the answer to my own question..... According to the Syracuse Post-Standard, Arbitron has listed only the subscriber stations in the 12+ survey results in the Syracuse market and the Burlington-Plattsburg markets; only those two. Likely this is an experiment to see how much negative publicity this would generate for arbitron. This is a poor practice since the newspapers report the 12+ numbers, such newspaper articles would be misleading in telling who is #1, #4, etc. Non-subscribing stations ( = no payments to Arbitron) are put at an unfair disadvantage, unless the newspaper article disclosed that it is a faulty list which is unlikely. A decently-rated station not listed, I imagine could have a case against arbitron for loss of revenue. There were 8-or-so stations NOT listed in the Syracus book owned by one company...Galaxy, who was quopted as saying that paying arbitron $250,000.00 (annually?) was too much.
 
When I worked at Triple X back in the day, I recall seeing a customized sales pitch from Arbitron. It was an elaborate booklet full of charts and graphs, ultimately presenting the conclusion that if WXXX were to subscribe to Arbitron, they could increase their advertising revenues by $38,000 in the next year.

On the very next page, Arbitron indicated that WXXX could subscribe to Arbitron for one year (two surveys) for $40,000. No joke. For those of you with rusty math skills, if WXXX had met Arbitron's lofty expectations to the number, they would have lost $2,000 by paying for the numbers. Only in radio.
 
Looks like Hall adoes now, now that their four FM stations were added to the listings.
 
A 2.4 for the Wizard? Never thought I'd see the day. I was surprised when I heard that they'd carry Bob and Tom. I thought they'd capitalize on the chance to capture lightning in a bottle by creating a local show, as was the case with Corm & The Coach 14 years ago.
 
Will says "When I worked at Triple X back in the day, I recall seeing a customized sales pitch from Arbitron. It was an elaborate booklet full of charts and graphs, ultimately presenting the conclusion that if WXXX were to subscribe to Arbitron, they could increase their advertising revenues by $38,000 in the next year. On the very next page, Arbitron indicated that WXXX could subscribe to Arbitron for one year (two surveys) for $40,000. No joke. For those of you with rusty math skills, if WXXX had met Arbitron's lofty expectations to the number, they would have lost $2,000 by paying for the numbers. Only in radio."

Hard to say how much business Triple X is missing by sending their salespeople out unarmed, but think about this: an average station will sell 50,000 spots/units a year. By selling 1,000 extra spots (19 a week) at $40 each, they'd have all the information they need to tell their story and be able to support it with something beyond their good looks & charm... a smile & a shoeshine (Blue Sky & BS). Salespeople need the numbers not just on offense; they need them for defense, too. As it is, the savvy buyers hammer them, knowing they have no comeback. Like lambs to the slaughter. Last time I checked, Northeast was doing this to their poor sales staff, too. Leaving hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table...
 
I don't agree with you. Local clients very seldom use the ratings and I highly doubt that any station in the Burlington market can get away with just $40-50,000.00 paid to Arbitron these days. That figure is more likely $75,000.00. Ratings figure ,ore prominantly into regional/national buys and many of those buyers already have the ratings. Buying Arbitron is no longer a "no-brainer"...but a big investment that has questionable methodology. many operators are re-evaluating that huge dollar committment and I think they are right to do so. Good sellers can sell without the ratings. Bad sellers can't sell even with ratings. You still need a talented staff. And yes, to see the Wizard with a little over a two share is certainly amazing. Especially after Hall paid $17.5 million for that and the Buzz. Sure, WOKO does fine but I bet the local management at Hall didn't get much sleep last nite thinking about the Wizard.
 
It use to be all about releationships, but now it is about numbers.
Let me say this about Dan D and Hall. My friend at Hall tells me that Dan D was the Golden Boy in the company for a very long time but not now. He was the one who talked Hall into buying WIZN and the BUZZ. After 19 Million spent and WIZN in the crapper, Dan now is feeling the heat from the higher ups. T
 
As I was saying, the bottom line is he is clueless on the rock side and he is not going to get lucky again like he did with OKO. There is a major culture class between and him and the IZN and the BUZZ staff.
 
Ray D. Oh says "Local clients very seldom use the ratings and I highly doubt that any station in the Burlington market can get away with just $40-50,000.00 paid to Arbitron these days. That figure is more likely $75,000.00. Ratings figure ,ore prominantly into regional/national buys and many of those buyers already have the ratings. Buying Arbitron is no longer a "no-brainer"...but a big investment that has questionable methodology. many operators are re-evaluating that huge dollar committment and I think they are right to do so. Good sellers can sell without the ratings. Bad sellers can't sell even with ratings. You still need a talented staff."

Remind me, Ray. How long has Burlington been a rated market? The only local clients who don't use ratings as a negotiating tool are those too dumb to know better. Sure, [EDIT], you may not care about rate, but everybody else...

And if you're the salesperson whose GM/SM says "We don't need no stinking book to sell with," then you're getting played big-time by the client. Because THEY have the numbers, even if YOU don't. That "good sellers/bad sellers" stuff is BS; it's the kind of thing usually preached by somebody who doesn't subscribe and who has no idea how much ching they ain't getting because of it.





[vulgar]
 
The truth in sales is that the client will advertise with you if he or she likes you...all things being equal, people do business with their friends. All things being unequal...people still like to do business with their friends. "The only local clients who don't use ratings as a negotiating tool are those too dumb to know better." Perhaps you underestimate your potential or current customer...the fact is that numbers that Arbitron reports are flawed. They rely on responses from listeners who don't even know, half the time, what station they are listening too! In a market as small as Burlington, this is maginfied. Clients know this...so does the sales staff.

Stations that don't subscribe to Arbitron feel they have a superior product than all the competitors...for the most part...this is true. Take Triple X...no doubt the best station in the maket? How many on this board go on and on about how "big market" the station sounds.

Plus...remember...the sales staff is selling the PRODUCT...not the ratings. A salesperson who relies on Arbitron for success will fail...if the product he sells is top notch...he will succeed. I agree that Arbitron is a good tool...but it won't close the deal for local advertisers. Local advertisers rely on the local influence and reputation a station has...as well as a good, enthusiastic salesperson.
 
dudeman...

My question concerns the AE's (in any market) who go about "touting the ratings numbers"---even if their station's on-air product is terrible? :eek:

Just because a radio station has a few more listeners during a specific daypart (or at night)...does this mean an advertiser should believe the ARB numbers and subsequently shell out their money for commercials?

What if their product is more appealing to a radio station whose audience demographic was low...or didn't show up in the book at all? Do the lower or non-existant numbers CANCEL out a spot buy? ???

argytunes
 
Dudeman2000 said:
The truth in sales is that the client will advertise with you if he or she likes you...all things being equal, people do business with their friends. All things being unequal...people still like to do business with their friends. "The only local clients who don't use ratings as a negotiating tool are those too dumb to know better." Perhaps you underestimate your potential or current customer...the fact is that numbers that Arbitron reports are flawed. They rely on responses from listeners who don't even know, half the time, what station they are listening too! In a market as small as Burlington, this is maginfied. Clients know this...so does the sales staff.

Stations that don't subscribe to Arbitron feel they have a superior product than all the competitors...for the most part...this is true. Take Triple X...no doubt the best station in the maket? How many on this board go on and on about how "big market" the station sounds.

Plus...remember...the sales staff is selling the PRODUCT...not the ratings. A salesperson who relies on Arbitron for success will fail...if the product he sells is top notch...he will succeed. I agree that Arbitron is a good tool...but it won't close the deal for local advertisers. Local advertisers rely on the local influence and reputation a station has...as well as a good, enthusiastic salesperson.
Click to expand...

Mmmmm... advertisers love to do business with friends, IF those friends have a product/service that is worth buying. When a client has all the rankers from the reps at Hall & CC showing double or triple the audience of XXX or The Point--in the demos Hall & CC want to show--it puts the Sison & NE sellers at a big disadvantage. Maybe not the first time... but by the 10th or 20th time, the advertisers begins to understand: the other guys come in with data... you come in denying the data, but with no evidence to counter. Many (not all, but many) local advertisers have been getting Arbitron breakouts from their Hall & CC reps for years or decades.Many (not all, but many) local advertisers are well educated; they can read; they can use the net; they can-and-have learned about Arbitron. That it's a real company... one that dominates the field of radio audience research. They can go to www.arbitron.com and get free studies explaining the details of radio audience research. And they fully understand that the radio stations generally perceived to be the leaders in Burlington--WOKO & WEZF--have been showing them Arbitron data for decades while the other guys have been trying to dance around it for decades. The flip side is that if the Sison & NE reps had access to the info, there is plenty in there to give THEM a story to tell. As it is, they have to make it up... and look foolish doing so.

Yes, their client/friends may give them a "pity buy." And, yes, some (a few) client/friends innately recognize that the XXX demo or the Point audience is, in fact, a good demo/lifestyle match for their business and buy on that hunch--data or no data. But in this business, sending your reps out without the information they need is like sending them out unarmed.
 
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