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Calculator/Output Power & Height

Anyone know of a calculator that shows how power reduces as height increases? I am curious about something.

For example, say you have a Class A licensed for 6KW at 328 FT. I am looking for a calculator where it would show the reduction in transmitter output power as height increases.
 
http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/audio/bickel/fmpower.html

It shows if you double your Class A's antenna height to 656' (200m) power is reduced to 1.55kw.

That's effective radiated power. Transmitter output power is different, it depends on the gain of your transmitting antenna. The FCC doesn't really directly regulate it; you're required to use the appropriate amount of transmitter output power to achieve the effective radiated power on your license with the antenna in use.
 
If you can find it--RF Specialties had a little DOS program that allowed you to quickly calculate either ERP for a given transmitter output, coax and antenna--or the TPO needed to drive that antenna system to get the licensed ERP.

Has efficiency factors calculated in for most standard coax cable types and gain factors for a number of antennas. Or you can enter the gain factor if you have an antenna that is not listed (e.g., the SWR low power CP antennas I've used on a number of translator installations).
 
Even though added height is "supposed to be" the equivalent of more power, it is NOT the equal.

There are many cases where higher power would work better than a higher mounted antenna.

Due to topography there are likely situations where the higher mounted antenna would work better than higher power;
my experience is that the higher an FM antenna is, the less useful is fringe coverage, at least in mobile reception.

On long drives I am often amazed at the coverage of FMs in the middle of flatlands, when Chicago, tall building mounted
FMs do not enjoy nearly as much fringe coverage.

The relatively short stick FMs with higher power seem to carry better than the lower powered FMs on skyscrapers.

I'd really like to hear what the coverage would be like with skyscraper antennas and "real" power.
Probably something like Major Armstrong's Yankee Network. :)
 
The real reason I am asking for this is that I saw on another sight two listings of really tall translators (>2000 feet). I am curious as to how 125 watts at 2400 feet translates (no pun intended) back down into the regular FM class.

I was particularly intrigued if such a translator offered a comparable coverage area to a Class A FM.

I don't believe in height with reduced power. I believe in raw power for the sake of building penetration.

However, I did get rather curious.

Here is the link if anyone wants to just peak at it and give me a comparison...

http://broadcastengineering.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3858
 
There are many translators with Class A coverage or better. The FCC refuses to close the loophole on unlimited antenna height for translators. The Martz group has the types of translators in several major cities. They find some defunct AM, apply for a translator simulcast, find a really tall tower, and then operate the translator just like a real FM station. Anyone else has to follow the 300' or 500' above average terrain rule or reduce ERP. Not these stupid translators. Yes, there are some at 2,500' above average terrain or maybe higher. Also, when they do this, there are no spacing requirements to other same channel FM's unless documented listener interference can be proven. I think Clear Channel is the only owner to prove listener reported interference so far.

chriscollins said:
The real reason I am asking for this is that I saw on another sight two listings of really tall translators (>2000 feet). I am curious as to how 125 watts at 2400 feet translates (no pun intended) back down into the regular FM class.

I was particularly intrigued if such a translator offered a comparable coverage area to a Class A FM.

I don't believe in height with reduced power. I believe in raw power for the sake of building penetration.

However, I did get rather curious.

Here is the link if anyone wants to just peak at it and give me a comparison...

http://broadcastengineering.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3858
 
fm-engineer said:
They find some defunct AM, apply for a translator simulcast, find a really tall tower, and then operate the translator just like a real FM station. Anyone else has to follow the 300' or 500' above average terrain rule or reduce ERP. Not these stupid translators.

.... Also, when they do this, there are no spacing requirements to other same channel FM's unless documented listener interference can be proven. I think Clear Channel is the only owner to prove listener reported interference so far.


There are a couple of points that should be mentioned for the sake of clarity and completeness. To begin with, the typical non-fill-in translator is limited to 250W at 30 meters (approx. 100ft), not 300 or 500 feet. A maximized non-fill-in has a typical service range of about 7km. Also, the HAAT for a translator is calculated per radial not averaged, so the non-fill-in translator's power is limited to the HAAT above the tallest radial.

Fill in translators are limed only in power, but, as mentioned, not in height. To that end there are fill-in translators that do rival the coverages of class A stations, however, there are two limitations that were not mentioned.

First, for AM stations, the service contour must not extend beyond the 2mV predicted contour of the AM station. Also for AM stations, the 1mV of the translator cannot extend past 40kM, even if the 2mV does. For FM stations, the 1mV of the translator cannot exceed the 1mV of the primary, but there is no additional 40kM limitation.

Second, all translators are authorized based on contour limitations. That is to say, the predicted interfering contour of the translator cannot overlap the protected contour of any other station. This is how all stations, including full service, in the reserved portion of the band are authorized. So, while some translators do exist with 250W, operating from very high antennas, there are lots of others that operate from short towers and low powers (some as little as 1 Watt), even though they are fill-ins. It's fairly hard to find mega translators in dense urban areas, though there are a few of them, for sure. Most that are high powered are also using directional antennas. It's a lot more common to find lower powered translators operating in the urban areas (by low powered, I really mean reduced coverage areas, not specifically power).

So, while it is true that translators cannot cause any actual interference, before they get to that point, they must demonstrate, on paper, that they won't cause predicted interference, nor will they extend the primary station's signal.

Finally, it's noteworthy that translators are always at risk of being displaced. Translators receive no protection from full powered stations, so if a station makes a change that conflicts with the translator or if a new station gets authorized that conflicts, then the translator may be forced off the air, even if it has operated for years.
 
Below is a link to a field-vs-distance comparison of Class B FM stations (50 kW ERP from 150m HAAT). This is based on a station using a 1-bay transmit antenna atop at Sears (Willis) Tower in Chicago, which due to its elevation is derated to about 4.5 kW ERP -- compared to a station running 50 kW ERP from 150m.

The derating is based on producing an equal distance to the 1 mV/m contour for the overheight station as for the station running 50 kW from 150m.

The reason that the derated ERP can match the 1 mV/m field of the higher power station is because the overheight signal has better Fresnel zone clearance. An earth grazing, line-of-sight path for the signal from the lower elevation starts losing field intensity more quickly than the signal from a higher elevation that still has Fresnel clearance.

It is true that the 50 kW station has about 6 dB greater field near the antenna site than the 4.5 kW station, but the fields from the 4.5 kW station are about 200 mV/m at that distance -- which have rather good "penetration."

The high elevation from a tall building in the city center also tends to have less multipath distortion at receive sites than a lower antenna height/higher ERP station located in the suburbs.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h85/rfry-100/CoverageCompare.gif
 
FWIW, I have found that, in working with the local LPFMs, a few Watts at 350' far exceeds the effective coverage of 100W at 100'. In interesting thing I've noticed for the stations with lower antennas is that the signal is much better driving on roads that parallel the transmitter than on roads perpendicular to it. The parallel roads do not need to be in a line towards the transmitters, just generally sort of lined up with it. I am guessing that this might be attributable to knife edge diffraction.

As the signal skims the treeline/rooflines and bends towards earth, it takes a very shallow angle from the shorter antennas. The antennas on tall structures don't seem to exhibit this phenomena to a very great degree.
 
TomT said:
If you can find it--RF Specialties had a little DOS program that allowed you to quickly calculate either ERP for a given transmitter output, coax and antenna--or the TPO needed to drive that antenna system to get the licensed ERP.

It is available on my site - look for the fifth entry under "New On This Site," dated 28-Jan-2010:

http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html
 
Tom Wells said:
I'd really like to hear what the coverage would be like with skyscraper antennas and "real" power.
Probably something like Major Armstrong's Yankee Network. :)

You could take a road trip to North Carolina?

WRAL-FM 96kW 555m

WERO 100kW 543m

WRVA-FM 100kW 600m

WNCT-FM 100kW 518m

The tower for WRVA-FM, if memory serves me correctly, was one of the tallest towers for an FM only support structure, when it was built for the previous call sign of WTRG. Most of the other tall tower FMs are FMs sidemounted on a TV tower, but that wasn't the case with WTRG, or at least that is what I remember from the 1980s.

IIRC, WERO and WNCT-FM are on the WNCT-TV/WITN-TV tower at Grifton, NC. WRAL-FM is on the candelabra at Auburn, NC.
 
Most of the commercial FM stations in Houston are maxed out class C's that get out over a 100 miles on a car radio without any tropo enhancement. Most of the time I can get reliable HD reception 70 or more miles from the master FM site in Missourri City, TX
 
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