call signs

[bobdavcav]

Two questions,
1. I asked this a month or so ago and didn't get a very clear response. How are stations licensed east of the W and K line such as KUUL, KDWZ, and KBWX able to have K callsigns if they are on the W side of the line?
2. I thought there was a rule that the fm suffix couldn't be assigned to a callsign unless the owner had permission? So there are several I don't get unless they got that without any of us knowing. Examples are KLCK/Seattle, the am is in Goldendale and not at all related to the fm, and KKLS with the am in Rapid City and the fm in Sioux Falls, though I guess they could have been under the same ownership and then sold separately, Wikipedia isn't very good about ownership changes. I'm also not sure that WNRG and WNRG-FM are under the same ownership.

 

[KeithE4]

Two questions,
1. I asked this a month or so ago and didn't get a very clear response. How are stations licensed east of the W and K line such as KUUL, KDWZ, and KBWX able to have K callsigns if they are on the W side of the line?

It could be because of the following:

The station is old enough to have been licensed when K-calls were assigned to everybody. This was in late 1920 and early '21. Examples: KDKA & KQV, both Pittsburgh. Note that in this era, the American K-block was KD-KZ. KA, KB, and KC were assigned to Germany until 1929.

The station is located in Louisiana or Minnesota, which are on both sides of the Mississippi River.

The FCC or its predecessors screwed up (it has happened in a few cases).

2. I thought there was a rule that the fm suffix couldn't be assigned to a callsign unless the owner had permission? So there are several I don't get unless they got that without any of us knowing. Examples are KLCK/Seattle, the am is in Goldendale and not at all related to the fm, and KKLS with the am in Rapid City and the fm in Sioux Falls, though I guess they could have been under the same ownership and then sold separately, Wikipedia isn't very good about ownership changes. I'm also not sure that WNRG and WNRG-FM are under the same ownership.

The -FM, -TV, -CD, -LP, etc. suffixes are considered part of the callsign. The "base" doesn't signify a single ownership like it used to. That's why, for example, KJZZ can be assigned to an FM station in Phoenix and KJZZ-TV can be a TV station in Salt Lake City. They don't have to be under the same ownership, but they can be. See: KCBS San Francisco and KCBS-FM & KCBS-TV Los Angeles, all owned by (of course) CBS.

 

[bobdavcav]

Hmm. On the first question, KDWZ is in Superior, WI, KBWX formerly KMJM is in Columbia, IL and KUUL is in East Moline, IL. I think these were all 1950 or later.

 

[KeithE4]

Hmm. On the first question, KDWZ is in Superior, WI, KBWX formerly KMJM is in Columbia, IL and KUUL is in East Moline, IL. I think these were all 1950 or later.

KDWZ may be licensed to Superior, but it transmits from Duluth. KBWX transmits from suburban St. Louis on the Missouri side. Both transmit from the "K" side of the Mississippi River.

KUUL transmits from the Illinois side of the Quad Cities metro, so maybe that's one of the FCC's mistakes. ???

 

[joebtsflk1]

The story on this:the KUUL calls started out on 103.7 in Davenport, Iowa in the 90s as an oldies outlet (replacing the KIIK calls on 103.7 in the 70s and 80s) WLLR was a country outlet on 101.3 in East Moline IL. Both serve the Quad Cities metro with the Mississippi River running through the middle of the whole mess.

Fast forward to about 10 years ago, both stations are under Clear Channel ownership. 103.7 is a class C0, 100 kW at about 1200'. 101.3 is in Illinois, which means class B, 50 kW at 500'. CC flips country to the more powerful 103.7 and oldies to the smaller 101.3 signal. And that's how the W and K call jump the river...common ownership.

 

[fybush]

The callsign desk at the FCC has a fairly mushy policy these days with respect to markets that straddle the Mississippi. Ever since KWK (1380 St. Louis) bought WGNU-FM (106.5 Granite City IL) and fought hard to be allowed to change the calls to KWK-FM, the Commission has generally allowed stations reasonably close to the river on either side to be "W" or "K" at will. (That extends an earlier policy that already allowed for a fuzzy line in Louisiana and Minnesota, where the river meanders.)

As for the second question - KLCK-FM in Seattle most surely had to have permission from KLCK(AM) in Goldendale to share the calls; ditto KKLS(AM) and KKLS-FM.

 

[bobdavcav]

Scott, have KKLS and KKLS-FM ever been under the same ownership that you know of? I think that's why the KIXZ calls are on a Townsquare am in Texas while the KIXZ-FM calls are in Spokane, the am station was not required to change its calls when it was sold in 2003 and hasn't changed them since.

 

[jfrancispastirchak]

As an adult under construction growing up on 1960's Long Island, now and then I could pick up WOAI from San Antonio in the evening. Always confused me--- Texas had a station assigned a "W", while Pittsburgh had KDKA and St Louis was the home of KMOX . I was a very confused teenager.

 

[KeithE4]

As an adult under construction growing up on 1960's Long Island, now and then I could pick up WOAI from San Antonio in the evening. Always confused me--- Texas had a station assigned a "W", while Pittsburgh had KDKA and St Louis was the home of KMOX . I was a very confused teenager.

Prior to 1923, the W/K line was the western border of Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, and the Dakotas. That's how WOAI and a few others got "W" calls. The border was moved to the Mississippi River in '23.

And I have to correct one thing I said earlier: The "K for everybody" rule lasted through most of 1921.

 

[joelr]

There's plenty of Ws west of the Mississippi. WWLS, WKY and WBBZ in Oklahoma. WDAF (used to be AM and TV, now just FM and TV in Kansas City).

 

[joelr]

As an adult under construction growing up on 1960's Long Island, now and then I could pick up WOAI from San Antonio in the evening. Always confused me--- Texas had a station assigned a "W", while Pittsburgh had KDKA and St Louis was the home of KMOX . I was a very confused teenager.

Technically, St. Louis is on the K side of the Mississippi River.

 

[bobdavcav]

There's also WDAY in Fargo. James Ingstad has done some really weird things with that station's ownership that I really don't get. I wonder why he sold those stations to CC only to buy them back 6 years later, own them for 7 years, then sel them off to Midwest Communications, only to aquire 7 more stations in the market?

 

[Jay Walker]

There's plenty of Ws west of the Mississippi. WWLS, WKY and WBBZ in Oklahoma. WDAF (used to be AM and TV, now just FM and TV in Kansas City).

WWLS was assigned a "W" call, after the new owner Larry Steckline, fought the FCC to retain a "W" call-sign based on the original call WNAD granted in 1921. WKY is another of the grandfathered stations as well.

 

[KeithE4]

There's plenty of Ws west of the Mississippi. WWLS, WKY and WBBZ in Oklahoma. WDAF (used to be AM and TV, now just FM and TV in Kansas City).

WWLS was assigned a "W" call, after the new owner Larry Steckline, fought the FCC to retain a "W" call-sign when the call was changed from the original WNAD licensed in 1921. WKY is another of the grandfathered stations as well.

Oklahoma & Missouri were in "W" territory when those stations first went on the air. The K/W line wasn't moved to the Mississippi River until 1923.

 

[Jay Walker]

There's plenty of Ws west of the Mississippi. WWLS, WKY and WBBZ in Oklahoma. WDAF (used to be AM and TV, now just FM and TV in Kansas City).

WWLS was assigned a "W" call, after the new owner Larry Steckline, fought the FCC to retain a "W" call-sign when the call was changed from the original WNAD licensed in 1921. WKY is another of the grandfathered stations as well.

Oklahoma & Missouri were in "W" territory when those stations first went on the air. The K/W line wasn't moved to the Mississippi River until 1923.

Very true on the W/K division line moving in 1923.

In the case of WWLS, I know that it was a battle of sorts for Steckline to get a new "W" call granted when he purchased the station. His argument was based on the original grant of the WNAD call. Steckline usually had his initials "LS" tagged on all of his stations scattered through out Kansas, Oklahoma. His son Greg has continued that with KGSO.

 

[davideduardo]

There's also WDAY in Fargo. James Ingstad has done some really weird things with that station's ownership that I really don't get. I wonder why he sold those stations to CC only to buy them back 6 years later, own them for 7 years, then sel them off to Midwest Communications, only to aquire 7 more stations in the market?

Ingstad sold the cluster for $46 million, then bought it back for $14 million. Then he was able to sell it to Midwest for $23 million.

That looks like a significant profit on both transactions.

Then he bought back into the market with a comparable group, but one with about 50% lower billings, for $9 million. If he turns the stations around, he wins a third time... and with the considerable upside he has on the latest purchase, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[1L6E6VHF]

At the beginning of the radio age, there was no such thing as the FCC. You applied for a radio license from either of two bureaus (one was the commerce department, I can't recall who the other was), who were both authorized to issue radio licenses.

WDAF and WBAP got their licenses from the same bureau as WCAU and WOR did, while KDKA and KQV got theirs from the same bureau KFI and KGO did (I'm guessing the latter bureau had a branch office in Pittsburgh).

The geographical lines came later, originally applied to coast stations with three-letter calls. These sent radiotelegrams and made telephone patches to ships at sea for a fee. The BOATS had four-letter calls, and were reversed (West coast boats had W calls, east coast boats had K calls).

Note that the Mississippi River/K&W split is unique to broadcasting. Amateur calls have a geographically based numeral, with no significance to the letter (e.g., AI8Y, KD8AUL, N8EHV and WB8SKW were all in Michigan). In public service radio, the second letter is geographic (e.g, the "Q" in Detroit PD's KQA414 meant MI OH or WV, the "M" in a call KMG#### meant CA).

 

[William_Yeager]

Educational Media Foundation moved KRLE from Oberlin, Kansas to Carbon Hill, Alabama - its new COL puts it on the fringes of Tuscaloosa, Birmingham, Huntsville, and the Columbus (Mississippi) markets.

 

[davideduardo]

At the beginning of the radio age, there was no such thing as the FCC. You applied for a radio license from either of two bureaus (one was the commerce department, I can't recall who the other was), who were both authorized to issue radio licenses.

" Radio Service Bulletins were issued monthly by the Bureau of Navigation (and later the Radio Division), Department of Commerce from January 1915 into the 1930s to keep mariners, aviators, radio listeners, and others abreast of developments in the new medium of radio."

The Federal Radio Commission, under the same agency, transitioned into the chore and was later replaced by the FCC.

The licensing transactions of the DoC's agencies from 1915 to 1932 are at http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Service-Bulletin-Guide.htm

WDAF and WBAP got their licenses from the same bureau as WCAU and WOR did, while KDKA and KQV got theirs from the same bureau KFI and KGO did (I'm guessing the latter bureau had a branch office in Pittsburgh).

The reasons for "W" calls west of the Mississippi and "K" calls to the east is not due to separate agencies; it is due to internal policy issues as well as a different east-west separation point early in radio history.

 

[1L6E6VHF]

I wish I could remember where I read about the separate agencies, I believe it was an issue of popular communications sometime in the mid to late 1980s.