"Cambridge SoundWorks Radio 820HD"

[PocketRadio]

"Cambridge SoundWorks Radio 820HD"

"Sound quality nitpicks aside, the real problem with the Cambridge SoundWorks Radio 820HD is the same issue that afflicts all HD Radio products: HD Radio technology hasn't yet distinguished itself as a worthwhile added value. To our ears, the HD Radio stations weren't delivering a dramatic improvement over their analog counterparts. And while we welcomed the presence of digital-only HD2 stations on the dial, many of them seemed to be noticeably compressed--more MP3 than CD. Moreover, the data streams seemed limited to artist, song, and show title info. That's nice, but nothing that can't be done with RDS info on analog stations, and many of the HD stations seem to lack the informational displays altogether. While the digital stations certainly offer static-free reception, that's only if they're within range; a distant HD station will drop in and out if it's too far away. Even more disturbing is that some nearby HD stations seem to blink out randomly--the cell phone-like signal meter drops a full six bars to zero and then shoots back up again a few seconds later, even when the radio is completely stationary. To reiterate, none of these problems are the fault of Cambridge 820HD. The same issues exist on the Polk I-Sonic, and will continue to exist for any and all HD Radio receivers until the stations decide to offer more bandwidth and better data support. While the HD Radio issues aren't particular to the 820HD, they're certainly a factor to weigh when considering purchase--in other words, if HD Radio isn't all it's cracked up to be, why pay a premium for a radio that's got little else to offer (no CD player, no network audio streaming, no satellite radio support) ? "

http://reviews.cnet.com/Cambridge_SoundWorks_Radio_820HD_onyx/4505-7866_7-32077730.html

iBiquity - was that "CD" quality, or "seedy" quality ?

 

[Mike Walker]

Don't you love with COMPUTER PEOPLE "review" audio technology, and then the technical equivalent of "evolution deniers" link to it, both believing they've made a relevant point?

 

[Tom Wells]

Don't you love with COMPUTER PEOPLE "review" audio technology, and then the technical equivalent of "evolution deniers" link to it, both believing they've made a relevant point?

As the equipment in question is far more a computer than a radio, I'd say these people know what they're talking about.

HD radio is, of course, a modem dowwnlink, with whatever digital quality the data supports, if the data is solid enough.

If any of the digital processing circutiry fails, this thing can't pick up doodly.
A RADIO would still have physical parts which reasonate, tune, amplify, and do so inherently when power is applied.
Without instructions, the only thing HD radios do is dissapate heat.

So the people who really know sound cards, computers, and gee-whiz modern "hi-tech" ought to be the ones reviewing this.

If you ask me as an analog engineer what I think, well, I think you know what I think.

 

[radiopilot]

Don't you love with COMPUTER PEOPLE "review" audio technology, and then the technical equivalent of "evolution deniers" link to it, both believing they've made a relevant point?

As the equipment in question is far more a computer than a radio, I'd say these people know what they're talking about.

HD radio is, of course, a modem dowwnlink, with whatever digital quality the data supports, if the data is solid enough.

If any of the digital processing circutiry fails, this thing can't pick up doodly.
A RADIO would still have physical parts which reasonate, tune, amplify, and do so inherently when power is applied.
Without instructions, the only thing HD radios do is dissapate heat.

So the people who really know sound cards, computers, and gee-whiz modern "hi-tech" ought to be the ones reviewing this.

If you ask me as an analog engineer what I think, well, I think you know what I think.

Which was my original post earlier about a virus being downloaded as part of the music being broadcasted on HD and embedded with the music to do damage to HD radios... no different than a regular computer virus.. of course the radio station would not know it's transmitting the bug because it would have been embedded by the musicisian or band wanting to cause havoc and mayhem.


Radiopilot

 

[Mike Walker]

First of all the term "broadcast" is used for present, AND past tense...there is no such word as "broadcasted". And you know about as much about the subject matter as grammar. There is no way to EXECUTE a file inside an HD Radio. A computer may transfer a virus harmlessly to another device over a network. In fact, there's no harm in passing viruses. The harm comes from EXECUTING one. That isn't possible.

"If the digital processing fails, this thing can't pick up doodly". Well, if the engine fails, my car "can't drive doodly". If the atmospher fails, I "can't breathe doodly". Know what? There are FEWER parts in an HD radio than a high performance analog one, NOT more. And none of them are moving. HD radios are as reliable as any modern technology.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

First of all the term "broadcast" is used for present, AND past tense...there is no such word as "broadcasted". And you know about as much about the subject matter as grammar. There is no way to EXECUTE a file inside an HD Radio. A computer may transfer a virus harmlessly to another device over a network. In fact, there's no harm in passing viruses. The harm comes from EXECUTING one. That isn't possible.

"If the digital processing fails, this thing can't pick up doodly". Well, if the engine fails, my car "can't drive doodly". If the atmospher fails, I "can't breathe doodly". Know what? There are FEWER parts in an HD radio than a high performance analog one, NOT more. And none of them are moving. HD radios are as reliable as any modern technology.

That's exactly what was said about cell phones..."they can't execute files, so they are immune to viruses"...until three years ago:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1614794,00.asp

In fact, you just issued the ultimate challenge to hackers: telling them that something can't be done. Now it's virtually certain to happen.

 

[Chuck]

[In fact, you just issued the ultimate challenge to hackers: telling them that something can't be done. Now it's virtually certain to happen.

The sad part is the challenge of "It can't be done," is exactly what motivates most hackers. That and when they succeed, the acceptance of their "triumph" in the eyes of their peer groups. Breaking code is almost a badge of courage to some of these misdirected people.

 

[R.F. Burns]

First of all the term "broadcast" is used for present, AND past tense...there is no such word as "broadcasted". And you know about as much about the subject matter as grammar. There is no way to EXECUTE a file inside an HD Radio. A computer may transfer a virus harmlessly to another device over a network. In fact, there's no harm in passing viruses. The harm comes from EXECUTING one. That isn't possible.

"If the digital processing fails, this thing can't pick up doodly". Well, if the engine fails, my car "can't drive doodly". If the atmospher fails, I "can't breathe doodly". Know what? There are FEWER parts in an HD radio than a high performance analog one, NOT more. And none of them are moving. HD radios are as reliable as any modern technology.

That's exactly what was said about cell phones..."they can't execute files, so they are immune to viruses"...until three years ago:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1614794,00.asp

In fact, you just issued the ultimate challenge to hackers: telling them that something can't be done. Now it's virtually certain to happen.

At the least it would require that the infected file be somehow injected into a radio stations bit stream. That would require complicity with a radio station employee. It wouldn't be very difficult to track down who did that (and the virus would only effect those listening in HD to particular station at the moment the infected file was sent). Can you imagine what would happen? Most of the HD stations on the air today are run by huge corporations. The individule involved in this kind of action would not only face serious jail time. he or she would have a felony on their record (No more right to vote) and a fine that would probably break them for life. There aren't that many radio stations in the US compared with say computers and so annonymity is not possible. I say go ahead and do your best. I wonder if they have internet access in prison.

 

[radiopilot]

First of all the term "broadcast" is used for present, AND past tense...there is no such word as "broadcasted". And you know about as much about the subject matter as grammar. There is no way to EXECUTE a file inside an HD Radio. A computer may transfer a virus harmlessly to another device over a network. In fact, there's no harm in passing viruses. The harm comes from EXECUTING one. That isn't possible.

"If the digital processing fails, this thing can't pick up doodly". Well, if the engine fails, my car "can't drive doodly". If the atmospher fails, I "can't breathe doodly". Know what? There are FEWER parts in an HD radio than a high performance analog one, NOT more. And none of them are moving. HD radios are as reliable as any modern technology.

That's exactly what was said about cell phones..."they can't execute files, so they are immune to viruses"...until three years ago:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1614794,00.asp

In fact, you just issued the ultimate challenge to hackers: telling them that something can't be done. Now it's virtually certain to happen.

At the least it would require that the infected file be somehow injected into a radio stations bit stream. That would require complicity with a radio station employee. It wouldn't be very difficult to track down who did that (and the virus would only effect those listening in HD to particular station at the moment the infected file was sent). Can you imagine what would happen? Most of the HD stations on the air today are run by huge corporations. The individule involved in this kind of action would not only face serious jail time. he or she would have a felony on their record (No more right to vote) and a fine that would probably break them for life. There aren't that many radio stations in the US compared with say computers and so annonymity is not possible. I say go ahead and do your best. I wonder if they have internet access in prison.

Why would it require complicity of the radio station employee if the virus was introduced in the original song that was distributed over cd's or the internet.. you think radio stations don't get their music this way? The virus could also be transmitted by a listener talking on the phone and introduced into the air chain.

Second the file is executed when the DSP starts to decode the incoming signal and into the myriad of chips ready to be damaged in the radio.
The company I consult for was hit with a virus that wiped out 3 days of computer work, it came in through the firewall at the main headquarters and trickled down to each company segment firewalls.

The virus came from China from a 15 year old and he had to provide the virus code and killer application in order to recieve a lighter sentance.

Believe me if a hacker wants the satisfaction of doing just that... embed a virus into HD radios it will be done!

Radiopilot

 

[R.F. Burns]

First of all the term "broadcast" is used for present, AND past tense...there is no such word as "broadcasted". And you know about as much about the subject matter as grammar. There is no way to EXECUTE a file inside an HD Radio. A computer may transfer a virus harmlessly to another device over a network. In fact, there's no harm in passing viruses. The harm comes from EXECUTING one. That isn't possible.

"If the digital processing fails, this thing can't pick up doodly". Well, if the engine fails, my car "can't drive doodly". If the atmospher fails, I "can't breathe doodly". Know what? There are FEWER parts in an HD radio than a high performance analog one, NOT more. And none of them are moving. HD radios are as reliable as any modern technology.

That's exactly what was said about cell phones..."they can't execute files, so they are immune to viruses"...until three years ago:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1614794,00.asp

In fact, you just issued the ultimate challenge to hackers: telling them that something can't be done. Now it's virtually certain to happen.

At the least it would require that the infected file be somehow injected into a radio stations bit stream. That would require complicity with a radio station employee. It wouldn't be very difficult to track down who did that (and the virus would only effect those listening in HD to particular station at the moment the infected file was sent). Can you imagine what would happen? Most of the HD stations on the air today are run by huge corporations. The individule involved in this kind of action would not only face serious jail time. he or she would have a felony on their record (No more right to vote) and a fine that would probably break them for life. There aren't that many radio stations in the US compared with say computers and so annonymity is not possible. I say go ahead and do your best. I wonder if they have internet access in prison.

Why would it require complicity of the radio station employee if the virus was introduced in the original song that was distributed over cd's or the internet.. you think radio stations don't get their music this way? The virus could also be transmitted by a listener talking on the phone and introduced into the air chain.

Second the file is executed when the DSP starts to decode the incoming signal and into the myriad of chips ready to be damaged in the radio.
The company I consult for was hit with a virus that wiped out 3 days of computer work, it came in through the firewall at the main headquarters and trickled down to each company segment firewalls.

The virus came from China from a 15 year old and he had to provide the virus code and killer application in order to recieve a lighter sentance.

Believe me if a hacker wants the satisfaction of doing just that... embed a virus into HD radios it will be done!

Radiopilot

Ok, here's why it wouldn't work. Any audio that a radio station broadcasts has to go through at least another level of compression and as to playing songs from the internet, with HD that's a big no no. Stations are moving towards linear operating systems, from the source material (which would mean no Internet source) to the processing (which would change the makeup of the damaging file) to the STL with the only level of compression being at the Iboc generator. These are closed systems. By the time the file is received by the listener it's characteristics have changed and again, those files are no longer damaging. Nice try. Hackers want the biggest bang for the buck. That's why they go after Windows and not Apple computers. If there are 100,000 HD radio now they wouldn't see that as worth the risk or their efforts.

 

[Tom Wells]

First of all the term "broadcast" is used for present, AND past tense...there is no such word as "broadcasted". And you know about as much about the subject matter as grammar. There is no way to EXECUTE a file inside an HD Radio. A computer may transfer a virus harmlessly to another device over a network. In fact, there's no harm in passing viruses. The harm comes from EXECUTING one. That isn't possible.

"If the digital processing fails, this thing can't pick up doodly". Well, if the engine fails, my car "can't drive doodly". If the atmospher fails, I "can't breathe doodly". Know what? There are FEWER parts in an HD radio than a high performance analog one, NOT more. And none of them are moving. HD radios are as reliable as any modern technology.

How about they'd made it as a decent analog radio first, then ADDED the HD whizbangs?
But no. Even the analog signals get run through analog/digital conversion in HD radios.

My point being that in a RADIO, the audio output amp can be broken, and the headphones still work. The AM can be broken and the FM can still work.
The whole audio chain can go out, and we can still clip a piezo earpiece at the detector and listen.
The power filters can be failing and the whole thing humming like a motor, and still pick up stations. Etc, Etc.
As much as possible, analog radios go on "trying to work". None of the HD 'radios" "know" how to work.
They execute instructions, they are computers.

I'm still waiting for someone to post an audio file from any of the HD radios on AM w/analog signal, at night, tuned to a wideband AM signal like AM 650 or 860.
I would like to be pleasantly shocked, but I already know what to expect.
They WANT it to sound bad on analog. That's enough reason for me to reject iboc.

I agree that it is unlikely for a virus to to infect an HD radio, if it were made "relatively stupid", and could only decode an audio file.

However, we hear glimmers of addressability, and learn that firmware might be able to download new tricks like pay-for-content.
If enough capability has been built into the system, it would be a natural target for hackers.
It might take hijacking someone's microwave STL to get a virus in, but the system was probably designed with many vulnerabilities,
expecting that radio feeds and properties have been mostly secure for many years.

 

[johneb2johneb2]

While I am just an average radio listener, I am well versed in the computer industry for over 25 years. I can tell you that if any HD radio allows a firmware upgrade, via online, or usb etc., it can be hacked sooner or later. I don't claim to have any expertise on over the air transmissions, so on the surface it may not be able to be done or practical right now, but I wouldn't rule it out in the future. Unfortunately, you have some tech geeks whose ultimate goal is to crack barriers & "leaving their trademarks", in ways never realized before. However, I would not let that deter me from purchasing a HD Radio. As soon as "intrusions" occur, remedies are usually found quickly to resolve the "intrusion" Respectfully, John E B

 

[R.F. Burns]

First of all the term "broadcast" is used for present, AND past tense...there is no such word as "broadcasted". And you know about as much about the subject matter as grammar. There is no way to EXECUTE a file inside an HD Radio. A computer may transfer a virus harmlessly to another device over a network. In fact, there's no harm in passing viruses. The harm comes from EXECUTING one. That isn't possible.

"If the digital processing fails, this thing can't pick up doodly". Well, if the engine fails, my car "can't drive doodly". If the atmospher fails, I "can't breathe doodly". Know what? There are FEWER parts in an HD radio than a high performance analog one, NOT more. And none of them are moving. HD radios are as reliable as any modern technology.

How about they'd made it as a decent analog radio first, then ADDED the HD whizbangs?
But no. Even the analog signals get run through analog/digital conversion in HD radios.

My point being that in a RADIO, the audio output amp can be broken, and the headphones still work. The AM can be broken and the FM can still work.
The whole audio chain can go out, and we can still clip a piezo earpiece at the detector and listen.
The power filters can be failing and the whole thing humming like a motor, and still pick up stations. Etc, Etc.
As much as possible, analog radios go on "trying to work". None of the HD 'radios" "know" how to work.
They execute instructions, they are computers.

I'm still waiting for someone to post an audio file from any of the HD radios on AM w/analog signal, at night, tuned to a wideband AM signal like AM 650 or 860.
I would like to be pleasantly shocked, but I already know what to expect.
They WANT it to sound bad on analog. That's enough reason for me to reject iboc.

I agree that it is unlikely for a virus to to infect an HD radio, if it were made "relatively stupid", and could only decode an audio file.

However, we hear glimmers of addressability, and learn that firmware might be able to download new tricks like pay-for-content.
If enough capability has been built into the system, it would be a natural target for hackers.
It might take hijacking someone's microwave STL to get a virus in, but the system was probably designed with many vulnerabilities,
expecting that radio feeds and properties have been mostly secure for many years.

First most STL's aren't just simple non digital RF links. Someone on Long Island broke into a stations STL a few years ago playing KKK music. In NYC there are no RF stl's. Everything is T1 from studio to transmitter site. Again even if after all that effort they got into a single radio station, they'd have minimal effect. Not gonna happen. I've worked in radio long enough to have heard what analog RF sampling loops sound like through a pair of headphones. We used to monitor our AM off air audio. It was loud because of the amount of compression. It was mono and we played vinyl and used carts on the air. FM still sounded much better then the best AM signal. I remember listening to WABC on a wide band radio. It was loud and heavily compressed with a relatively high noise floor and it was mono. Need I go on? In an area where I live only the major stations could be heard without interference from nearby stations without interference and it was mono. I've listened to AM stereo through my system using a SRF 100 and even when it's in wideband mode it still sounds like AM radio with a high noise floor, static from lights and other outside noise and FM still sounds much better. FM IBOC does sound better than analog. What it really has to make it worthwhile is the ability to provide 2nd and 3rd channel audio. Analog can't do that and sound anywhere as good as IBOC does now. For any weaknesses that AM IBOC might have it still sounds much better than wide band AM stereo.

 

[R.F. Burns]

While I am just an average radio listener, I am well versed in the computer industry for over 25 years. I can tell you that if any HD radio allows a firmware upgrade, via online, or usb etc., it can be hacked sooner or later. I don't claim to have any expertise on over the air transmissions, so on the surface it may not be able to be done or practical right now, but I wouldn't rule it out in the future. Unfortunately, you have some tech geeks whose ultimate goal is to crack barriers & "leaving their trademarks", in ways never realized before. However, I would not let that deter me from purchasing a HD Radio. As soon as "intrusions" occur, remedies are usually found quickly to resolve the "intrusion" Respectfully, John E B

Considering that the RF link from origination point to the receiver is virtually a closed link, how would a hacker interupt a radio stations feed. Most STL's are closed. Many these transmitters are operating with 50 KW's and to be able to inject your corrupt file into a system like that you'd need more than 50 KW RF to override the existing system. I'm not talking capture effect but for a receiver to take that file which would have to self execute, you couldn't do it with a mobile radio for instance. Remember all but the non directionals are effectively running much more than their rated power in their main lobe erp and while they run les in nulls, you'd have to know where those nulls are. These systems are like computers only in that they are secure when not connected to the internet aka the outside world.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

At the least it would require that the infected file be somehow injected into a radio stations bit stream. That would require complicity with a radio station employee.

Wrong. Lots of radio content is originated off-site and passed through the station's studio equipment without alteration.

The individule involved in this kind of action would not only face serious jail time. he or she would have a felony on their record (No more right to vote) and a fine that would probably break them for life. There aren't that many radio stations in the US compared with say computers and so annonymity is not possible. I say go ahead and do your best. I wonder if they have internet access in prison.

OK, Mr. Attorney, what law would this "individule" have broken?

Considering that the RF link from origination point to the receiver is virtually a closed link, how would a hacker interupt a radio stations feed.

Since lots of stations use telco facilities (fractional or full T1s or ISDN circuits), there is no "closed link." Such circuits travel through multiple COs between source and destination, any one of which could be a tap-in point.

By the time the file is received by the listener it's characteristics have changed and again, those files are no longer damaging. Nice try.

Yep, nice try. Just because a stream of data undergoes compression doesn't mean that its original form can't be recovered. You assume too much.

Hackers want the biggest bang for the buck. That's why they go after Windows and not Apple computers. If there are 100,000 HD radio now they wouldn't see that as worth the risk or their efforts.

There ARE Apple viruses, worms, Trojan horses and spyware. You understand the hacker mentality not at all. Hackers want bragging rights. They want something to point to which says "I did that." They don't care how big it is, or how many people it inconveniences. They are, almost to a person, extremely antisocial and withdrawn. They exist only to brag to their peers in the hacker community. They do things because they can, not because they need the approval of the masses.

 

[johneb2johneb2]

If my memory serves me correctly, there were actually two incidents where broadcasting was disrupted on LI stations. The one that most people remember was WBAB 102.3 (Babylon - Long Island), due to what was broadcast by the hackers. WBLI - 106.1 (Patchogue - LI) also had a minor incident years ago. John E B

 

[Mike Walker]

No files that originate off-site go "unaltered" through a radio facility. If you believe so, then you haven't worked in radio. EVERYTHING is altered...passed through a console, processing, stl, and transmitter...often with multiple a/d, d/a cycles.

Addressable radios DO open the possibility of tempering, but I don't see how that tampering wouldn't have to originate at the station. Tapping into an STL wouldn't even do it. It might give you access to a station's AUDIO, but most likely there is processing gear in the transmitter building that will change the bitstream once again.

Besides, granting that it may be POSSIBLE to implant a "virus" in an HD radio, what would one have it do? HD radios don't have internet access. They receive only, so there is no method for perpetuating the "virus". FAR BETTER for a "radio hacker" would be to access the AUDIO, hijacking the station's CONTENT. This is not only possible, it has been done, and no doubt will be again.

If I wished a station harm, what would I want to do, implant a "virus" of some kind in either their computer systems or on-air bitstream? NAH! I'd go for their PRODUCT...radio stations produce AUDIO. THAT is what one who wishes them harm would seek to hack!

 

[johneb2johneb2]

Mike, I agree with you. I think the hackers hijacked the audio feed that came from an offsite location, but I could be wrong. Again not being in the radio industry, I honestly don't know how it is done. From what I recall they never caught whomever did it either. On the HD radio computer aspect, again my belief is IF it a virus were possible, it would only be on a direct linkup for firmware updates, upgrades etc. with the radio itself, not at the broadcast source, or via an over the air signal. Even that I think is stretching it, since they would have to hijack a web site etc that is providing the firmware upgrade, or entice people to another web site thinking it is a software crack for better performance, programming or added features. Nevertheless, I never will say never, as these "geeks" do some dumb things just to say they did it. John E B

 

[R.F. Burns]

At the least it would require that the infected file be somehow injected into a radio stations bit stream. That would require complicity with a radio station employee.

Wrong. Lots of radio content is originated off-site and passed through the station's studio equipment without alteration.

The individule involved in this kind of action would not only face serious jail time. he or she would have a felony on their record (No more right to vote) and a fine that would probably break them for life. There aren't that many radio stations in the US compared with say computers and so annonymity is not possible. I say go ahead and do your best. I wonder if they have internet access in prison.

OK, Mr. Attorney, what law would this "individule" have broken?

Considering that the RF link from origination point to the receiver is virtually a closed link, how would a hacker interupt a radio stations feed.

Since lots of stations use telco facilities (fractional or full T1s or ISDN circuits), there is no "closed link." Such circuits travel through multiple COs between source and destination, any one of which could be a tap-in point.

By the time the file is received by the listener it's characteristics have changed and again, those files are no longer damaging. Nice try.

Yep, nice try. Just because a stream of data undergoes compression doesn't mean that its original form can't be recovered. You assume too much.

Hackers want the biggest bang for the buck. That's why they go after Windows and not Apple computers. If there are 100,000 HD radio now they wouldn't see that as worth the risk or their efforts.

There ARE Apple viruses, worms, Trojan horses and spyware. You understand the hacker mentality not at all. Hackers want bragging rights. They want something to point to which says "I did that." They don't care how big it is, or how many people it inconveniences. They are, almost to a person, extremely antisocial and withdrawn. They exist only to brag to their peers in the hacker community. They do things because they can, not because they need the approval of the masses.

And you misunderstand how a broadcast facility is constructed. There is no way for a pure unaltered file to be sent over the air and executed unless it is injected past every piece of audio processing and of course past the Iboc exciter (which takes data sent to it and compresses it using its own codec). Radio station audio chains are not the same as the internet and infected files just can't be injected at some point prior to the transmiter and be sent to thousands of radio receivers. As Mike says there are so many stages of digital to analog conversion in a radio station and even different sampling rates (not all 44.1 you know) that any file injected would have no effect on the receiver. Dream on, but it isn't going to happen. By the way you'd have to know where to inject the file in a specific audio chain. Radio stations use lots of computers already for all sorts of things andthey are all protected from viruses at every stage. Our facility has at least one T3 and a full IT department operating 24/7 so nothing gets into the building, although some have tried and each department as their own IT department working on specific computers. Being a professional operation, the only time our internet went down was right after 9/11 when the infrastucture in NY was destroyed. No problems thought. We stayed on the air with our own power plant which is capable of providing power to a block wide Television and radio facility where one local TV stattion is located, One TV Network, One radio network (we do our own uplinking) and one 50 KW radio station.