Can anyone identify this processor (photo)?

[Paul]

8000's had a "sweet spot". Levels below that wouldn't compress properly and sounded thin. Levels above that were overly peak/dip with bass punch. That was fixed in the 8100 by having 2 bands (bass band and everything else band). It was very common, almost expected to run something in front on a Orban 8000 to keep the audio in its sweet spot.

I still have an 8000 in a backup audio chain on one station. Compared to today's computerized wonder-boxes, the 8000 is anemic and lame.

 

[rfburns]

8000's had a "sweet spot". Levels below that wouldn't compress properly and sounded thin. Levels above that were overly peak/dip with bass punch. That was fixed in the 8100 by having 2 bands (bass band and everything else band). It was very common, almost expected to run something in front on a Orban 8000 to keep the audio in its sweet spot.

I still have an 8000 in a backup audio chain on one station. Compared to today's computerized wonder-boxes, the 8000 is anemic and lame.

True statement today, but the 8000 was a game changer when Bob Orban introduced it in the mid 70s. To my knowledge, no one else had designed a one box solution for FM processing at that time.

 

[kevtronics]

True statement today, but the 8000 was a game changer when Bob Orban introduced it in the mid 70s. To my knowledge, no one else had designed a one box solution for FM processing at that time.

The 8000's genius was incorporating the processing and stereo generator in the same box. Before then, the stereo generator was its own unit with its own pre-emphasis and 15 kHz lowpass filtering, which created unavoidable modulation overshoots.

And the 8000 does tend to sound rather pumpy if you go over about 7 dB of gain reduction. Back in the day when you had a human operator running the board and (hopefully) monitoring their levels it wasn't such a big deal, but now when you have a computer automation system feeding into it and your levels could be all over the place, it's a good idea to have an AGC ahead of it.

 

[Paul]

True statement today, but the 8000 was a game changer when Bob Orban introduced it in the mid 70s. To my knowledge, no one else had designed a one box solution for FM processing at that time.

I remember it well. Having the stereo generator and the pre-emphasis ahead of the peak clipper was the "game changer". Some of us were already doing that with our own homebrew equipment. My FM was noticeably louder than our direct competition using CBS Labs gear and separate stereo generator. Then they got an Orban 8000 and sounded equal to us. Se we started playing with some PR&E processors after a homebrew bandpass splitter/ filter setup To do the first multiband limiting our market had ever heard. Then we got an 8100 with the XT box for 6-band processing and blew the competitor off the dial!

 

[rfburns]

I remember it well. Having the stereo generator and the pre-emphasis ahead of the peak clipper was the "game changer". Some of us were already doing that with our own homebrew equipment. My FM was noticeably louder than our direct competition using CBS Labs gear and separate stereo generator. Then they got an Orban 8000 and sounded equal to us. Se we started playing with some PR&E processors after a homebrew bandpass splitter/ filter setup To do the first multiband limiting our market had ever heard. Then we got an 8100 with the XT box for 6-band processing and blew the competitor off the dial!

The 8100 and XT box (or a set of Audio Prisms) were the gold standard for analog processing back then.

 

[Kelly A]

The 8100 and XT box (or a set of Audio Prisms) were the gold standard for analog processing back then.

Yep, trashing the audio to be louder than the competition was the thing back then. Glad it's been, for the most part, relegated to the dustbin of history.
Streaming listeners won't put up with distorting their favorite music, making radio listening that much more inferior by comparison.

 

[Paul]

Yep, trashing the audio to be louder than the competition was the thing back then. Glad it's been, for the most part, relegated to the dustbin of history.
Streaming listeners won't put up with distorting their favorite music, making radio listening that much more inferior by comparison.

Multiband limiting done properly enhances audio and does not "trash" it. We're not talking about today's computerized grunge-boxes here.

 

[Kelly A]

Multiband limiting done properly enhances audio and does not "trash" it. We're not talking about today's computerized grunge-boxes here.

Digital processing is far superior in performance with lower noise and distortion than a bunch of stacked VCA's. And trying to be loud only drives important TSL down.
Old school thinking doesn't help gain, let alone keep an audience.

 

[kevtronics]

Digital processing is far superior in performance with lower noise and distortion than a bunch of stacked VCA's. And trying to be loud only drives important TSL down.
Old school thinking doesn't help gain, let alone keep an audience.

It could be, but often isn't, especially in major markets. On the NYC FM stations, which I'm sure are using the latest whiz-bang $10,000 digital processors, I still hear lots of obvious, objectionable clipping distortion, especially whenever there's a lead vocal with a strong bass line under it.

That's the one good thing about HD Radio: it has lots of digital codec artifacts, but at least the clipping distortion cleans up when the radio switches into HD mode, because they designed it to have 5 dB greater headroom than analog FM.

 

[Paul]

Digital processing is far superior in performance with lower noise and distortion than a bunch of stacked VCA's. And trying to be loud only drives important TSL down.
Old school thinking doesn't help gain, let alone keep an audience.

I disagree, but that's OK! I have heard a lot of very well done analog processing, but a lot more poorly done digital. Audio engineers sometimes forget that no matter how much manipulation you do to digital, our ears are still analog. Listener fatigue is very misunderstood with most.

 

[Kelly A]

I disagree, but that's OK! I have heard a lot of very well done analog processing, but a lot more poorly done digital. Audio engineers sometimes forget that no matter how much manipulation you do to digital, our ears are still analog. Listener fatigue is very misunderstood with most.

Oh, clearly we agree that in the wrong hands, any processing can cause undue fatigue. But from a purely technical standpoint, digital processors offer far less noise and much lower measured THD and IMD than stacked VCA or diode clippers.

 

[rfburns]

Don't overlook what you are feeding the processing with. Pre-processed or compressed low bit rate audio will sound bad regardless.

 

[bigdonho]

Not to sound sexist, but I've always felt that processing was like makeup on a woman. If there is enough there for you to be aware of it, it's too much.

 

[yeoldeschool]

Not to sound sexist, but I've always felt that processing was like makeup on a woman. If there is enough there for you to be aware of it, it's too much.

That's an especially apropos metaphor since women rather than men are ones most sensitive to processor inharmonics. Something about prehistoric evolution, and looking after small children in the wilderness all day -- where you needed phenomenal recognition of high-pitched voice harmonics to distinguish when it was your kid rather than someone else's who was yelling for help from the hungry dinosaur. Meanwhile, all the men needed to evolve to hear was what direction the low-frequency hissing was coming from so they knew where to swing their 10 pound clubs in the dark to bring home dinner.

 

[yeoldeschool]

It could be, but often isn't, especially in major markets. On the NYC FM stations, which I'm sure are using the latest whiz-bang $10,000 digital processors, I still hear lots of obvious, objectionable clipping distortion, especially whenever there's a lead vocal with a strong bass line under it.

I have always loved the processing in Los Angeles. Big, wide, and rich, but not clipped to a crisp like in New York.

That's the one good thing about HD Radio: it has lots of digital codec artifacts, but at least the clipping distortion cleans up when the radio switches into HD mode, because they designed it to have 5 dB greater headroom than analog FM.

At least music formats with high spectral density (e.g. wall of sound oldies, synth heavy 80s) mask clipping distortion most of the time. With the bitrate limitations of IBOC, dense spectrum becomes the enemy. Simple sounds end up affording the most masking to the codec artifacts. Meanwhile spectrally rich audio like Van Halen's Jump ends up sounding the way Youtube makes the surfaces of windswept lakes look.

Fascinatingly enough, HD Radio would sound best with no processing whatsoever beyond slow AGC and slow multiband compression (dynamic re-equalization). Any attacks or releases fast enough to bring low reverb/ambiance further upfront only forces more audio into the codec's "people's ears will hear this, so I have to allocate bits to it" window. When an audio codec is starving for bits, you have two choices: accept there being mosquito noise around every sharp edge, or sharpen the picture until it becomes extremely textured/grainy and watch the codec buckle and turn it into pure macroblocking frame-wide.

 

[davideduardo]

The 8100 and XT box (or a set of Audio Prisms) were the gold standard for analog processing back then.

I dunn'o. Some of use used the Prisms and called them "Audio Prisons" before going to some other processing.

 

[davideduardo]

I have always loved the processing in Los Angeles. Big, wide, and rich, but not clipped to a crisp like in New York.

NY, with relatively low power is forced to make the signal as "punchy" as possible. In LA, where you have a number of FMs over 10 kw at 5000 feet above the city, it is very different.

Fascinatingly enough, HD Radio would sound best with no processing whatsoever beyond slow AGC and slow multiband compression (dynamic re-equalization). Any attacks or releases fast enough to bring low reverb/ambiance further upfront only forces more audio into the codec's "people's ears will hear this, so I have to allocate bits to it" window. When an audio codec is starving for bits, you have two choices: accept there being mosquito noise around every sharp edge, or sharpen the picture until it becomes extremely textured/grainy and watch the codec buckle and turn it into pure macroblocking frame-wide.

Most stations that need constant and consistent high volume levels in noisy car environments opt for some kind of AGC ahead of peak limiting, even if neither is terribly aggressive.

With over 50% of all radio listening in cars now, the background noise has to be a consideration.

 

[yeoldeschool]

NY, with relatively low power is forced to make the signal as "punchy" as possible. In LA, where you have a number of FMs over 10 kw at 5000 feet above the city, it is very different.

Oh, is that why? It makes sense. In fact, I'm now thinking all those buildings must produce an incredible amount of multipath. Could that be another reason for their balls-to-the-wall clipping loudness -- overcoming a potentially higher, multipath-augmented noise floor?

I wonder how much stereo enhancement (222A/Stereomaxx style) is used there today. I do remember reading it has a negative effect in multipath-prone areas (with the "width limit" control on those boxes being meant to help address that issue specifically).

Most stations that need constant and consistent high volume levels in noisy car environments opt for some kind of AGC ahead of peak limiting, even if neither is terribly aggressive.

I hear that sort of processing on several stations down here, especially the more tasteful formats. However, there's still a lot of "dense and rich" old school processing going on (Jack FM, etc.). It's just that here, thankfully, they don't induce TSL-killing ear fatigue with their release timings or lean so heavily on their clippers that voices and pianos get ripped to shreds.

Incidentally, a follow-on, for anyone interested, to what I was saying in my last post. In addition to simpler spectral density being advantageous to low bitrate lossy coding, some here might also find it interesting to know that formats like FLAC -- which of course compress losslessly -- output fewer bits per second for the same compression level setting when fed spectrally simple as opposed to spectrally dense audio. For example:

https://files.catbox.moe/solcob.flac (flac compression level: max, 25.0 seconds of 48 kHz 16-bit stereo Ella Fitzgerald -- 2,079,981 bytes, a/k/a 665 kbit/s)
https://files.catbox.moe/6xxh2g.flac (flac compression level: max, 25.0 seconds of 48 kHz 16-bit stereo white noise -- 4,642,759 bytes, a/k/a 1485 kbit/s)

Were these WAV files, both would be identical in size.

So if we ever see the day when lossless compression replaces lossy compression in the online streaming and digital radio broadcasting worlds, the processing haters are going to have a field day. Stations will discover they can save bandwidth costs (online) or push out more streams (on air) if they don't turn their audio into a wall of sound.

 

[davideduardo]

I hear that sort of processing on several stations down here, especially the more tasteful formats. However, there's still a lot of "dense and rich" old school processing going on (Jack FM, etc.). It's just that here, thankfully, they don't induce TSL-killing ear fatigue with their release timings or lean so heavily on their clippers that voices and pianos get ripped to shreds.

Stations outside PPM markets don't push the PPM injection to the point of distortion. In competitive PPM markets, every detection counts and the audio suffers.

 

[Hot Country FM 90.7]

The "key" to audio processing is: Don't rely too much on the clippers! This applies to every single processor on the market. Many stations rely too much on final clipping/composite clipping and that causes a very smeared and awful sound. Even with psychoacoustic clippers, distortion is still noticeable, so pushing them to their limits isn't ideal.

As a person that owns a radio station and has set up broadcast processing before I will say this:
If you want to be loud, slow down the AGC, build density in the multi-band and use the final clipper minimally. This approach will help you achieve a rich, big-market sound without excessive distortion from clipping.

Ideally, aim for minimal processing to maintain an open sound. However, if that's not feasible, follow my advice above.