CAN WE STILL SALVAGE THE AM BAND AT NIGHT?

[JohnnyElectron]

I've spent the past 7 midnights tooling around the AM dial trying to see what AM-HD can do for me - and with the single exception of making a local-local-local AM graveyard sound decent in HD - it appears to do nothing but upset the analog listeners instead.

AM-HD appears to be a NO-WIN situation. IF you increase the digital component, then maybe I'll get better digital coverage, BUT, then you piss-off everybody listening on an analog radio, and they far outnumber the HD listeners.

Parking AM's on the HD2 or HD3 on HD-FM's appears to be the only thing that might work. If the existing AM band goes all-digital that will likely kill-off the AM band, as AM's advantage is a HUGE base of inexpensive analog radios. The NAB was wrong not to push for a new all-digital band (using HD or DRM codecs) for the AM stations to simulcast on.

The only AM-HD option I see is two-fold: iBiquity bites the bullet (or another manufactuer with some programming brains) and writes new code for the HD box that will allow transmission of C-Quam or CAM-D over their old iBiquity box; then the FCC mandates that all new FM-HD-IBOC radios MUST include C-Quam and/or CAM-D AMAX reception on the AM band.

Suggestions for our senior band?

 

[KeithE4]

Suggestions for our senior band?

Sure, here's an preliminary (i.e. not fully fleshed-out) idea I've had for awhile:

1. Open 76-88 MHz (TV channels 5 & 6) to FM broadcasting once analog TV is shut down. Those few stations that are set to continue with DTV on those channels should be required to find a new home on Chs. 7-51 ASAP.

2. Eliminate Class D AM stations (daytimers and those that run less than 250 watts at night). Require that those stations move to FM - either on a sister-station's HD2 if they have one, in the expanded FM band I mention above, to a Class 3 or 4 channel (described below), or go off the air.

3. Allow for more "graveyard" channels, such as adding 1410-1480 to the existing allotment of 6 channels. Stations on those frequencies would have to run 1000 watts non-directional fulltime, but that's just the way it goes. Some of the existing Class D's could move to these frequencies.

4. Allow all current Class A stations to run 50 kW ND on their existing channels. They would have priority. ONLY those stations would be allowed on those frequencies. All other stations on those frequencies would have to move or go off the air.

5. I would (if I was the dictator of the FCC ;D ) allocate only one class of station per frequency, as follows:

Class 1 (50 kW): 640-900, 990-1220, 1500-1580
Class 2 (10 kW): 520-630, 910-980, 1620-1700
Class 3 (5 kW): 1250-1330, 1350-1390, 1590-1610
Class 4 (1 kW): 1230-1240, 1340, 1400-1490

Canadian & Mexican stations on the Class 1 channels would have to be protected, of course, per our agreements with those countries. Note that I would open 520 and 530 kHz to American broadcasting. 1720-1790 kHz should also be opened, but I'm not sure what's there right now, if anything.

Stations would run non-directional antennas unless there are circumstances that would make it a problem, such as protecting Canadian or Mexican stations, keeping the signal out of the ocean (fish don't listen to radio), or a KYW-WEPN-type situation, where adjacent-channel 50 kWers are too close together.

Even Class 1's could be downgraded to 25 or even 10 kW (which would combine Classes 1 & 2). Does any station absolutely need to run 50,000 watts anymore, even in physically-large metro areas?

I would also propose a Class 5 (community stations) that would allow 20 watts output into a non-directional (single tower/vertical wire with appropriate radials) antenna no higher than 0.05 wavelength (approx. 28 meters at 530 kHz, 9 meters at 1700 kHz). They could use any Class 2, 3, or 4 frequency outside of an existing station's protected (1 mV/m?) contour. TIS stations would be put in this class. License requirements would be relaxed and commercial operation would be allowed.

I also would open up the 11 meter SWBC band to DRM broadcasting, as been mentioned in other threads. In fact, I'd open the 120, 90, and 60 meter bands as well. This would require a change in FCC (and Congress?) policy that's stated that domestic broadcasting is not allowed on shortwave - a policy that's existed "officially" since WW2, although the religious broadcasters operating outside of the ITU-allocated SWBC bands certainly violate that policy.

 

[Tom Wells]

I like most of your proposals, but what exactly is wrong with daytimers?
I listened to WNWI 1080 when it was 250 watts from Valparaiso, IN in Chicago, 60 miles away.
When they signed, off WTIC in Hartford was there.
I can understand the whole financial viability problem with daytimers, but what engineering reason do you have?


I greatly appreciate 50kw AMs. I am a field service engineer, and listen to many stations from outside their market.
I have never even grasped how many stations can ignore this important aspect of their service.
A few like WSM have figured out thier listeners aren't just in "the market".

 

[KeithE4]

I like most of your proposals, but what exactly is wrong with daytimers?
I listened to WNWI 1080 when it was 250 watts from Valparaiso, IN in Chicago, 60 miles away.
When they signed, off WTIC in Hartford was there.
I can understand the whole financial viability problem with daytimers, but what engineering reason do you have?

The engineering reason is that Class 1/A stations should be exclusive on their frequencies to maximize their service area. There's just no room for more than three 50 kW stations (Dallas, Hartford, and somewhere in the Pacific NW or northern California) on 1080, and those stations should be given priority.

Now, if all the 50 kWers were forced down to 10 kW (making all frequencies below 1220 kHz "Class 2"), then WNWI could fit in on 1080 and run the full 10 gallons day and night.

Also, WNWI is a perfect example of a station that could move to my proposed expanded FM band below 88 MHz if they were ever forced off 1080. I don't believe they have an FM in the Chicago/NW Indiana area and there's probably no other place to put them on AM.

I greatly appreciate 50kw AMs. I am a field service engineer, and listen to many stations from outside their market.
I have never even grasped how many stations can ignore this important aspect of their service.
A few like WSM have figured out thier listeners aren't just in "the market".

Because listeners outside of their service area don't generate one thin dime of revenue for their advertisers. I'd be surprised if WSM's advertisers are too concerned about the relatively few listeners that the station gets outside of a 75- or 100-mile radius of Nashville. I could hear WSM just fine in Chicago at night, but I couldn't patronize their advertisers. WSM's sales department couldn't have cared less if I was listening or not.

I enjoy DXing as much as anyone, but I'm realistic enough to know that those distant stations aren't interested in me. I don't enhance their bottom line.

 

[awj223]

Because listeners outside of their service area don't generate one thin dime of revenue for their advertisers. I'd be surprised if WSM's advertisers are too concerned about the relatively few listeners that the station gets outside of a 75- or 100-mile radius of Nashville. I could hear WSM just fine in Chicago at night, but I couldn't patronize their advertisers. WSM's sales department couldn't have cared less if I was listening or not.

I enjoy DXing as much as anyone, but I'm realistic enough to know that those distant stations aren't interested in me. I don't enhance their bottom line.

They aren't running the right kinds of ads for that time of the day. With the growth of national and international corporations and franchises, you should be able to patronize their advertisers no matter where you are. When I hear ads for UPS, FedEx, Amazon.com, Budweiser, etc., on nighttime skywave I can patronize the companies paying for those ads.

 

[KeithE4]

They aren't running the right kinds of ads for that time of the day. With the growth of national and international corporations and franchises, you should be able to patronize their advertisers no matter where you are. When I hear ads for UPS, FedEx, Amazon.com, Budweiser, etc., on nighttime skywave I can patronize the companies paying for those ads.

True to a point, but I can still hear those ads on my local Phoenix stations. Anheuser-Busch and the others aren't targeting me when they advertise on WSM or any other station outside of Phoenix. They can reach me by buying time on KTAR or KFYI.

The advertisers I'm talking about are the local car dealers, furniture stores, accident lawyers, and the like that only exist in the Nashville metro area. I'll never patronize any of them unless I move to Nashville. I don't know what the percentages are between local and national advertisers on WSM, but that percentage that is local can't possibly earn my business since I'm not there. If WSM's ad-base was 100% national, that would be another story.

 

[mimo]

When I travel to another city that has a station I can hear where I live, I go to the advertisers that I'd be interested in visiting (restaurants, etc) and let them know while I'm buying something there, where I'm visiting from and that I heard their ad on the radio in my city of residence and what the station was. Once in a while they tell me that someone else has come in from out of town and has heard the same ads. That's the only way I can think of letting the business know that their advertising is reaching potential tourists, and although my financial contribution is small, I'm sure any local business would rather have my modest amount spent in their bank account than somewhere else.

 

[KeithE4]

When I travel to another city that has a station I can hear where I live, I go to the advertisers that I'd be interested in visiting (restaurants, etc) and let them know while I'm buying something there, where I'm visiting from and that I heard their ad on the radio in my city of residence and what the station was. Once in a while they tell me that someone else has come in from out of town and has heard the same ads. That's the only way I can think of letting the business know that their advertising is reaching potential tourists, and although my financial contribution is small, I'm sure any local business would rather have my modest amount spent in their bank account than somewhere else.

That's an excellent point - one that would certainly justify keeping the 50 kW stations on the air and in fact making the clear-channels clear again. It's an angle I didn't think of but it makes sense.

 

[Tom Wells]

For 15 years, I worked for a company situated in Nashville while I lived in Chicago. I often spent much time in Nashville.
I listened both ways. A station such as WSM with its unique content is fully deserving of clear channel status.
On the other hand, they can only cover 300 miles in daytime, so there are large areas where 650 can be used for daytimers.


If all the AM stations that went full time over the last 25 years were returned back to daytime only,
it would be a big improvement from my perspective.

 

[R.F. Burns]

For 15 years, I worked for a company situated in Nashville while I lived in Chicago. I often spent much time in Nashville.
I listened both ways. A station such as WSM with its unique content is fully deserving of clear channel status.
On the other hand, they can only cover 300 miles in daytime, so there are large areas where 650 can be used for daytimers.


If all the AM stations that went full time over the last 25 years were returned back to daytime only,
it would be a big improvement from my perspective.

I totally agreea dn that includes making the local chanels 1K day and 250 night again. All of the post sunset 80 watts facilities and shoehorned radio stations have done nothing but add noise to the broadcast band

 

[PhilGalasso]

I greatly appreciate 50kw AMs. I am a field service engineer, and listen to many stations from outside their market.
I have never even grasped how many stations can ignore this important aspect of their service.
A few like WSM have figured out thier listeners aren't just in "the market".

There are (or were) some overnight programs, both locally produced and syndicated, that catered to long-haul truckers and aired on selected 50 kW flamethrowers. WLW had one that was called, if I remember correctly, "Interstate 700". It featured country music and ads for truck stops far from WLW's home base of Cincinnati. AM skywave was fine (before the I-BUZZ started) for serving that kind of audience and the sales force at WLW took advantage of it. Truckers could listen to the same station for hours at night and the skywave signals reached sparsely populated areas in the West where there are few local FM stations.

My main concern with IBOC interference on AM at night is skywave interference INTO local AM stations. I am hearing it in northeastern Pennsylvania. However, there is some value to analog skywave listening if stations target the niche audience that is served by those distant signals. Digital skywave listening? Probably difficult or impossible with the iBiquity system, due to the phase shifts that take place when a signal is propagated via skywave. That's the same thing that spoiled reception of C-QUAM AM stereo at night, as the L-R information phase modulates the carrier and the phase shifts caused "platform motion". In the iBiquity system, these phase shifts may cause the receiver to fail to decode the digital sidebands, even though they are strong enough to totally trash analog signals on adjacent channels.

 

[awj223]

True to a point, but I can still hear those ads on my local Phoenix stations. Anheuser-Busch and the others aren't targeting me when they advertise on WSM or any other station outside of Phoenix. They can reach me by buying time on KTAR or KFYI.

The advertisers I'm talking about are the local car dealers, furniture stores, accident lawyers, and the like that only exist in the Nashville metro area. I'll never patronize any of them unless I move to Nashville. I don't know what the percentages are between local and national advertisers on WSM, but that percentage that is local can't possibly earn my business since I'm not there. If WSM's ad-base was 100% national, that would be another story.

Anyone wanting to reach an exclusively local audience shouldn't be buying night ads on a Class A station any more than they should be buying national TV slots during sporting events. Sure, they can buy them, but they shouldn't be complaining that some of the people the ads reach can't patronize them.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

AM stations sure got suckered into this situation. While every FM that goes IBOC gets one or more additional audio channels, and therefore can reach even more listeners - AM doesn't get additional HD-1's, 2's, 3's, etc. They are stuck with only one digital signal, with no viable upgrade path for more in the limited bandwidth. They just handed their competition - FM - even more listeners at their expense - on a silver platter.

And HD is supposed to save the AM band - HOW?????

 

[PhilJSmith67]

Exactly as I predicted... A big mess.

I have scanned the dial multiple times, using several receivers, since IBOC@Night began.

I live about 35 miles south of downtown Chicago. 670 WSCR, 720 WGN, and 780 WBBM (all Chicago) used to be clean and clear where I am every night, without fail. Now, each of them contains hash. I'm not talking about that "self-jamming hash" which puts a background hiss on an IBOC station with wideband receivers. I am talking about a modem-hash sound which is very prominant on ANY of my receivers.

WSM Nashville and WTAM Cleveland are the only skywave stations I can get without hash anymore. Some have completely vanished, like the crystal-clear sound of 1030 WBZ Boston, which I believe is being covered by WHO Des Moines' hash, or maybe KDKA, or both. Now, here's the real kicker. Starting around sundown, my Sangean HDR-1 begins to lose its ability to lock the AM-HD signals from WSCR, WGN, WBBM, WRDZ, and WVON. Even WLS (19 miles away), which figuratively "pegs the HD meter" during the day drops to a level that is only a few tenths of dB above the "lock" threshold, and once in a while, it also breaks up. The others are WAY below the threshold; the HD annunciator shows up, but I don't even get a legitimate reading or bit-error-rate.

From a DX perspective, I can locate other stations which cause "HD" to show on the display, but are all way below the lock threshold. I was able to get WHO to lock for several 10-second intervals once, and I locked WTAM enough to cause "WTAM" to flash on the display. In both cases, the analog signals were so strong they were full-quieting (which is more than I can say for WSCR, WGN, and WBBM, my LOCAL stations!).

So, here's my personal scorecard. I've lost three local 50kw powerhouses to IBOC hash from out-of-town sources. I've gained one -- yes ONE -- HD signal (WLS), but this is on a 50kw local that is so strong it doesn't even have static during a summer thunderstorm. The HD Radio signals are so weak from the other 50kw stations that their callsigns sometimes won't even display. As for other "distant locals" or skywave stations, most are now gone or horridly unlistenable, except for cases where I can use a loop antenna to null the hiss.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

sundown, my Sangean HDR-1 begins to lose its ability to lock the AM-HD signals from WSCR, WGN, WBBM, WRDZ, and WVON. Even WLS (19 miles away), which figuratively "pegs the HD meter" during the day drops to a level that is only a few tenths of dB above the "lock" threshold, and once in a while, it also breaks up. The others are WAY below the threshold; the HD annunciator shows up, but I don't even get a legitimate reading or bit-error-rate.

I would predict that. Nighttime fading is the cancellation of the groundwave signal by the skywave when you are that close. The two signals are out of phase and cancel. Since IBOC is phase modulated from 5 to 10 kHz, it would be particularly susceptible to phase cancellation / distortion. Yet another way the iLove iBOC people goofed in their engineering.

 

[4dude]

I thought i heard 660s crap OFF EARLIER TONIGHT!!!!! (I havent had my radio on since 9pm or so)

I was listening to 650 w/o any hash,i hope they are reconsidering using it @ night!

 

[mimo]

They haven't had it on for at least 2 nights now, and a few others have switched it off at night as well. I really notice it seems to be off around 4 or 5 in the morning for the stations that are turning it off and on.

 

[4dude]

Good!!!!!!

 

[Savage]

Dude, was WFAN 660 carrying the Mets? They turn HD off during baseball games because the fans like to listen on headsets in the park. The encoding delay makes this impossible.

 

[4dude]

I cant remember if it was or not.......