There's an insightful thread on the Philadelphia Board concerning Cancer and RF. You are some of the worlds finest minds. You have the experiences. Your input would be priceless. http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/board,225.0.html
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Cancer and AM xmtr location link
- Thread starter amfmsw
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This brings to mind something I recall in working at a Cincinnati facility (fortunately for me, it was a short lived gig) that had a VHF Hi Band TV Transmitter on site. It seems that we were comparing notes amongst ourselves & came to the conclusion that no one who worked there lived to see age 65 retirement. Stress? RF? Something Else?amfmsw said:
RF Used to Treat Cancer?
"60 Minutes" presented a segment on Sunday about Erie, PA Radio/TV engineer John Kanzius who has developed a promising treatment for all types of cancer. He has developed a way to use radio waves to heat cancer cells tagged with nanoparticles, destroying only the cancer cells.
You can read more about John on WikiPedia, and check out the "60 Minutes" report.
"60 Minutes" presented a segment on Sunday about Erie, PA Radio/TV engineer John Kanzius who has developed a promising treatment for all types of cancer. He has developed a way to use radio waves to heat cancer cells tagged with nanoparticles, destroying only the cancer cells.
You can read more about John on WikiPedia, and check out the "60 Minutes" report.
M
menotti1
Guest
Very interesting report.We need a break thru.lost a brother ,who was a EE design engineer on the F16 & F111, and a year later a nephew,who was a Corp.jet pilot for AT&T,both to brain tumors.i just wondered whether possible exposure to that environment could have caused the tumors or if it could be heredity.Sloan-Kettering said no ,that we all have those type genes and something causes them to go haywire resulting in brain tumors.I still believe cell phones and other RF fields may cause brain tumors .
Well, there was one study in the past (so long back I don't have a cite or site) which showed a statistical link, small but signifcant, between RF exposure and leukemia. It may have since been discredited. The estate of some po' dead basset tried to sue Continental over it. Since Continental had nothing to do with the transmitters or antennae involved, it was tossed. I don't think it ever got to the stage of investigating the study's applicability.
As to cell phones and tumors, I'll take Kettering Instotutes analyses over Menottis, their cumulative c.v. in the area iof interest is substantially greater than his own. (By the same argument, I give more credence to his insight into processing technology than I do the oncologists.)
Interestingly, there is a connection between speed radar guns and some tumors; and cataracts and RF exposure, especially microwave exposure. A statistically significant number of traffic cops developed testicular and other locational tumors, and were found to be putting the gun in their lap between measurements so it wouldn't set off detectors. Ironic, that is.
As to cell phones and tumors, I'll take Kettering Instotutes analyses over Menottis, their cumulative c.v. in the area iof interest is substantially greater than his own. (By the same argument, I give more credence to his insight into processing technology than I do the oncologists.)
Interestingly, there is a connection between speed radar guns and some tumors; and cataracts and RF exposure, especially microwave exposure. A statistically significant number of traffic cops developed testicular and other locational tumors, and were found to be putting the gun in their lap between measurements so it wouldn't set off detectors. Ironic, that is.
M
menotti1
Guest
Please allow me to clear up a point in my post.Sloan-Kettering said NO as it pertained to brain tumors being inherited,since i questioned that with the 2 close losses in our family.They did not respond as to the cause of the tumor or source,but did say we all possess that gene and it can go haywire.Of course,if they knew that reason,it would be a great advancement.So, i still feel that RF exposure is a probable cause of some tumors,including brain.But proving it is another matter.Believe me ,with all the engineers ( 4 EE's)and lawyers(3) in my family,you can imagine what social visits are like..Break out the Crown and 7. (ha)
On such a serious subject, I must ask: Crown & 7? That's terrible! It's too good! That's like Jameson's Irish and Ginger Ale. Shocking!
By the way, it was the grandson of Jameson who discovered that radio waves (spark generated) can travel around the curviture of the earth. Now there's something to toast!
By the way, it was the grandson of Jameson who discovered that radio waves (spark generated) can travel around the curviture of the earth. Now there's something to toast!
They have done a lot of testing of cellphones and all the reports seem to suggest that there are no issues with RF radiation from them.
However, I don't believe it.
I have and still do get head pains from using a cellphone. I normally hold it to my right ear and that side of my head always gets warm, and aches after using one. I get the sensation of 'pressure' building on that side as well - like something is pushing against my head. I can even 'detect' when a cellphone is being used in the room I am in due to me getting the same sensations in the right side of my head.
People say "Don't use a cellphone then!" but it's kinda hard not to in these days of needing to be in touch. I simply try to keep the use of one to a minimum.
However, I don't believe it.
I have and still do get head pains from using a cellphone. I normally hold it to my right ear and that side of my head always gets warm, and aches after using one. I get the sensation of 'pressure' building on that side as well - like something is pushing against my head. I can even 'detect' when a cellphone is being used in the room I am in due to me getting the same sensations in the right side of my head.
People say "Don't use a cellphone then!" but it's kinda hard not to in these days of needing to be in touch. I simply try to keep the use of one to a minimum.
I worked at WGBF in the 1980's. All the chiefs lived in the house between the two towers. The rf wattage isn't as big (5kw) as some but the level was strong.
My computer literally blew smoke when I tried to plug it in. Commodore 64. RF blew two in a row. No phone worked except the rotary dial bell telephone left at the hosue by a previous chief.
The station used open air line which ran by the house. 6 wires outside for the shield and one inside. We used a flourescent bulb to walk the line every so often. The Collins 5B plate transformer would sing to the audio.
All the staff there lived to a ripe old age. Fay Gehres (The engineer who signed the station on was still alive and riding a bicycle through the 1990's.) Station signed on after KDKA in 1923 with an experimental license. If he wasn't 100 or more when he died I would be amazed.
Erwin Schoeny was mowing the lawn through the 1990's. He was there at sign on and later became Chief.
I look at some of the older guys who even told owners "I was here before you came and will be here after you leave" and see not arrogance but knowledge that they were doing their best and that their way was the best way.
Today i see the "Sense of urgency" mentality. Get it done and what falls through the cracks doesn't matter. (Charlie Chaplin on the machine)
Stress might be more an issue than rf?
Now, if this rf thing is a concern, WGBF has an interesting tower field these days. In between the two towers is now a strip mall. Yes, a strip mall. The entire ground field is gone and the buildings butt up against tower 2. This might account for their signal these days. Thsi obviously blows the rf radiation levels having a building 10 feet from 5kw. Just do a survey among current businesses to see their cancer level.
My computer literally blew smoke when I tried to plug it in. Commodore 64. RF blew two in a row. No phone worked except the rotary dial bell telephone left at the hosue by a previous chief.
The station used open air line which ran by the house. 6 wires outside for the shield and one inside. We used a flourescent bulb to walk the line every so often. The Collins 5B plate transformer would sing to the audio.
All the staff there lived to a ripe old age. Fay Gehres (The engineer who signed the station on was still alive and riding a bicycle through the 1990's.) Station signed on after KDKA in 1923 with an experimental license. If he wasn't 100 or more when he died I would be amazed.
Erwin Schoeny was mowing the lawn through the 1990's. He was there at sign on and later became Chief.
I look at some of the older guys who even told owners "I was here before you came and will be here after you leave" and see not arrogance but knowledge that they were doing their best and that their way was the best way.
Today i see the "Sense of urgency" mentality. Get it done and what falls through the cracks doesn't matter. (Charlie Chaplin on the machine)
Stress might be more an issue than rf?
Now, if this rf thing is a concern, WGBF has an interesting tower field these days. In between the two towers is now a strip mall. Yes, a strip mall. The entire ground field is gone and the buildings butt up against tower 2. This might account for their signal these days. Thsi obviously blows the rf radiation levels having a building 10 feet from 5kw. Just do a survey among current businesses to see their cancer level.
Here in Los Angeles, down the street from me in North Hollywood is the transmitter for KSPN (formerly Gene Autry's KMPC) 50KW ND days, 10KW directional nights. The KFI tower which fell is in the middle of a warehouse complex. The diplexed array shared by KTNQ and KTLK, both 50KW directional (5 towers) is embedded in a big warehouse/industrial complex. The problem as far as cancer is concerned is the shorter wavelengths. I saw a report on X-rays on the History Channel and they talked about how almost all of the early experimenters with X-rays and radioactive elements got cancers and died.
A lot of older engineers may have gotten cancers because of the PCBs that filled capacitors and transformers until the 60s and 70s. I think some older transmitters might still have them. Power companies on the other hand were required to replace all of the PCB dielectric coolants with other materials. They took down the transformers and capacitors, emptied and flushed them. Then they all had to be tested to meet environmental standards before being put back into service. I don't think they did that for radio stations though, just put on warning stickers.
Thomas Edison's lab developed and early X-ray viewing system called a Fluoroscope. His chief technician who worked the most on it died a horrible death and Edison abandoned the project. They did however became fixtures in doctor's offices though and I can remember when I was a real little kid that shoe stores still had ones that you stuck your feet into to see how the shoes fit. I suppose that people working on UHF and microwave systems might be at risk at high levels. As for cell phones which are low power and should be used sparingly the danger should not be so great, if there is any at all which hasn't really been demonstrated.
The people who work on sites like Mount Wilson would be a good case study I suppose. There is so much RF up there with all of the local TV and most of the FMs being up there. Most of the technicians spend a lot of time up there, with some actually living in provided housing for extended periods because it is a long hard drive to get there. Of course it would be necessary to know who may have had PCB exposure for any study to have any validity as to RF exposure being the culprit.
A lot of older engineers may have gotten cancers because of the PCBs that filled capacitors and transformers until the 60s and 70s. I think some older transmitters might still have them. Power companies on the other hand were required to replace all of the PCB dielectric coolants with other materials. They took down the transformers and capacitors, emptied and flushed them. Then they all had to be tested to meet environmental standards before being put back into service. I don't think they did that for radio stations though, just put on warning stickers.
Thomas Edison's lab developed and early X-ray viewing system called a Fluoroscope. His chief technician who worked the most on it died a horrible death and Edison abandoned the project. They did however became fixtures in doctor's offices though and I can remember when I was a real little kid that shoe stores still had ones that you stuck your feet into to see how the shoes fit. I suppose that people working on UHF and microwave systems might be at risk at high levels. As for cell phones which are low power and should be used sparingly the danger should not be so great, if there is any at all which hasn't really been demonstrated.
The people who work on sites like Mount Wilson would be a good case study I suppose. There is so much RF up there with all of the local TV and most of the FMs being up there. Most of the technicians spend a lot of time up there, with some actually living in provided housing for extended periods because it is a long hard drive to get there. Of course it would be necessary to know who may have had PCB exposure for any study to have any validity as to RF exposure being the culprit.
Until 198? PCB Capacitors were really simple to deal with.
When they blew the liquid went everywhere. You used paper towels to clean up the mess and threw the hole batch in the local landfill.
Some question as to the pcb issue. Is the problem with pcb material or material that has been burned (like the ones that blow up as a result of a short to earth).
I still see PCB equipment at the hamfests.
All of mine are now replaced with non pcb capacitors.
When they blew the liquid went everywhere. You used paper towels to clean up the mess and threw the hole batch in the local landfill.
Some question as to the pcb issue. Is the problem with pcb material or material that has been burned (like the ones that blow up as a result of a short to earth).
I still see PCB equipment at the hamfests.
All of mine are now replaced with non pcb capacitors.
ChiefEngineer said:
Google Map of WGBF site
I didn't realize just how hemmed in that second tower is now.
You could also look at the shopping mall which surrounds the WSB tower site
There is no shortage of potential data, but there are problems like was just pointed out in this topic to determine that any cancer link is caused by the RF and not by something else that the people were exposed to.
When my partner had our first kids, they were twin girls (sadly they didn't make it).
Our second was a girl.
Every RF engineer I have known has only produced girls. I even read a report on it once (don't remember where, but it did talk about how people who work in areas of high RF often only produce girls).
I posted this topic here a while back.
Sperm carrying the X chromosome are the strongest - the mother produces an X - therefore will produce a girl.
Working around high levels of RF weakens the Y chromosome. Apparently when you stop working in the area everything returns to normal within a month or so.
The reports about the effects of RF seem inconclusive and ambiguous.
Our second was a girl.
Every RF engineer I have known has only produced girls. I even read a report on it once (don't remember where, but it did talk about how people who work in areas of high RF often only produce girls).
I posted this topic here a while back.
Sperm carrying the X chromosome are the strongest - the mother produces an X - therefore will produce a girl.
Working around high levels of RF weakens the Y chromosome. Apparently when you stop working in the area everything returns to normal within a month or so.
The reports about the effects of RF seem inconclusive and ambiguous.
I seem to have missed that link. 40 years in the biz, one girl, one boy. He's 14, so he was conceived after I was away from the high power AM/FM and started working in TV.
Then again, everyone said the same thing about the TV RF.
Then again, everyone said the same thing about the TV RF.
ChiefEngineer said:
PolyChlorinated Biphenyls were actually discovered to be toxic as far back as 1937. In the US they were produced under the trade name Aroclor (by Monsanto) until the 70's. Topical exposure results in inflamed skin like a super acne attack and they have been linked to liver failure. Besides their use in transformer and capacitor dielectric and cooling oils they were used as plasticizers and on wire insulation and circuit boards, also those little solder joint boards used in the old days. They are persistent and do not easily degrade so they are a problem in the environment.
I was involved in a testing program for Southern California Edison in the 80's when they had to show that all of their transformers were free of PCB. I was tested (as required of all personnel in the program) and I was found to have a big spike in my blood but also a big DDT spike as well which appears right next to the PCB trace in a gas chromatogram. Since they were also used in paints, caulking and those carbonless forms everyone probably does show some in blood samples.
Since all Chloronated hydrocarbons became cancer suspects there was a lot of research done to establish a link with certain tumors and cancer but the biggest danger actually documented was to the liver. The skin eruptions may have sometimes resembled cancers and there was some evidence in rats but then they get cancer from everything.
Well, I've done this for money since I was 15, and I'm past 60 now. Firstborn was a boy. Remember, the exception doesn't prove the rule, it negates it. Though it would be interesting to look at total numbers of kids by sex of people exposed longterm to RF.
During WWII(The BIG one), we had little idea what might be dangerous to whom... we weren't as cognizant of ionizing or nonionizing radiation as we are now. Consequently, workers on the Manhattan Project died of various cancers way beyond their incidence in the piopulation in general. The movie 'Ghengis Khan' was filmed close to the test site at Alamagordo, and the movie is famous for two reasons. The first is, it's a John Wayne movie, and perhaps the most miscast movie he ever made, it is hilarious to watch. Second is, there was so much background radiation during filming that the master negative was fogged. You can see it in the movie... it isn't dark and dreary out, there's just fogged film from radiation. Pretty much everyone who worked on the movie is currently dead, the majority from various cancers - Wayne included.
During WWII(The BIG one), we had little idea what might be dangerous to whom... we weren't as cognizant of ionizing or nonionizing radiation as we are now. Consequently, workers on the Manhattan Project died of various cancers way beyond their incidence in the piopulation in general. The movie 'Ghengis Khan' was filmed close to the test site at Alamagordo, and the movie is famous for two reasons. The first is, it's a John Wayne movie, and perhaps the most miscast movie he ever made, it is hilarious to watch. Second is, there was so much background radiation during filming that the master negative was fogged. You can see it in the movie... it isn't dark and dreary out, there's just fogged film from radiation. Pretty much everyone who worked on the movie is currently dead, the majority from various cancers - Wayne included.
I think it all boils down to being safe around the stuff, and the exposure.
I've never been concerned about working around transmitters, but I would never think of entering inside, for example, a TTU-60 UHF TV transmitter and standing between two focus magnets and klystrons. I would never climb the tower and get up into the focus of an FM or TV antenna. I'm even a little concerned for the amateur antennas like the UHF on 443mhz that puts out 242 watts.
However, there are some missing links in the field that do silly things. I had a tower climber sneak in our site and change the bulb on the top of the tower, climbing across a 661,000 watt slot antenna at 600 mHz. I also heard of a fellow that would laugh about working among 3 Class-C FM antennas. He would kid, "it keeps me warm". Those guys are no longer with us and have gone to the big ATU in the sky.
I really think that remaining healthy on the job is due to paying attention to your surroundings and not taking chances.
I've never been concerned about working around transmitters, but I would never think of entering inside, for example, a TTU-60 UHF TV transmitter and standing between two focus magnets and klystrons. I would never climb the tower and get up into the focus of an FM or TV antenna. I'm even a little concerned for the amateur antennas like the UHF on 443mhz that puts out 242 watts.
However, there are some missing links in the field that do silly things. I had a tower climber sneak in our site and change the bulb on the top of the tower, climbing across a 661,000 watt slot antenna at 600 mHz. I also heard of a fellow that would laugh about working among 3 Class-C FM antennas. He would kid, "it keeps me warm". Those guys are no longer with us and have gone to the big ATU in the sky.
I really think that remaining healthy on the job is due to paying attention to your surroundings and not taking chances.
Well, before we knew any better, we used to get the riggers to take a big broken screwdriver and 'arc' each loop on each FM bay, to be sure it was being driven. They'd go up behind the array, and reach out and draw an arc from each loop. No arc, no drive, bad loop. When we found out it was dangerous, we quit asking them to do it.
Likewise with PCB oils in caps, transformers, and reactors. When we found out, we disposed of them. Some correctly, some intoi the dumpster behind the Kroger. Originally, the disposal company would take a 55 gallon drum of pcb components and diuspose of them legally for like $500. When we sold a station about ten years ago,removing the caps from an old RCA 5KW AM cost three or four grand.
I am aware of one AM which was sold after due diligence. When I looked at the place, there were a pair of mod reactors sitting on the dirt in an oily spot under the building. I'm told that when the biuyer did his die diligence, there was a lawnmower in the oily spot, and the electronic hardware was gone. Go figure.
Likewise with PCB oils in caps, transformers, and reactors. When we found out, we disposed of them. Some correctly, some intoi the dumpster behind the Kroger. Originally, the disposal company would take a 55 gallon drum of pcb components and diuspose of them legally for like $500. When we sold a station about ten years ago,removing the caps from an old RCA 5KW AM cost three or four grand.
I am aware of one AM which was sold after due diligence. When I looked at the place, there were a pair of mod reactors sitting on the dirt in an oily spot under the building. I'm told that when the biuyer did his die diligence, there was a lawnmower in the oily spot, and the electronic hardware was gone. Go figure.
I met a rigger in Pittsburgh who said" I will climb into any FM antenna as long as the TPO is 35kW or less. If the ERP is 50 kW and the TPO 25kW, that is ok." ?
littlejohn said:
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