Carly Simon is classic rock?

[tbolt909]

Really? So the challenges don't include increasing competition from other 'digital' sources? I can tell you're for whatever reason bitter about radio, but you seem to have lost perspective with that sort of comment.

Listener's are selfish. And I don't mean that in a pejorative sense. They consume the media that's convenient for them. Back in the day you seem to be stuck in; that was tuning in the local radio station and format(s) of choice. Now there are smartphones which not only serve up hundreds of audio or video choices, but games, navigation, textual communications with friends, E-mail, creating your own playlists, podcasts, and even live video chat, all in the palm of their hand. You don't think that's stiff competition for traditional radio?
Radio is one way 'broadcasting', and is still around. To assume that people are going to just dump their smartphones and go back to carrying around a portable radio because somehow jocks will be allowed to play their own music, lacks an understanding of media today.

You missed the point which is not surprising. I'm not bitter at all. Radio is stuck in the past, not me. Look at the typical Classic Rock playlist. It's a joke.

Radio used to be about making a connection with the listener. It's more than just a playlist. You don't seem to grasp the intangibles that made Radio unique. Corporate takeover made things worse as cookie cutter formats took over. It's true that Radio has more competition now than just other stations. The owners are the ones who don't seem to get that...

 

[Phil Harmonic]

who could forget... "Chuck E.'s In Love" Rickie Lee Jones 1979, that was huge on rock stations

 

[davideduardo]

You missed the point which is not surprising. I'm not bitter at all. Radio is stuck in the past, not me. Look at the typical Classic Rock playlist. It's a joke.

How is asking listeners what they want to hear a joke? Much worse is letting the personal opinion and taste of a jock determine what is played.

Radio used to be about making a connection with the listener. It's more than just a playlist. You don't seem to grasp the intangibles that made Radio unique. Corporate takeover made things worse as cookie cutter formats took over.

Rigid formats became the rule in the early 50's starting in '51 at KOWH in Omaha. Jocks at music stations were told what songs to play and in what places in each hour.

You don't think that WABC or WMCA or WLS or WFIL or KHJ or KFWB or all the other earlier music stations let the jocks pick the songs, do you.

Even in rock, Abrams' Superstars AOR format decimated the album rock formats where jocks lit one up and played their favorite songs.

Jim Shulke and Marlin Taylor did not even think about letting stations decide which Paul Mauriat cut they would play.

All this was 30 to 40 years before consolidation.

It's true that Radio has more competition now than just other stations. The owners are the ones who don't seem to get that...

Owners get that radio is one-to-many and the current preference is for one-to-on custom playlists. Radio can not do anything about that except doing better music sets than random plays off a computer.

 

[tbolt909]

Owners get that radio is one-to-many and the current preference is for one-to-on custom playlists.

Why do people watch a movie when they didn't write the script, direct it, or hire the actors? They could just make their own little videos. Radio may be One To Many, but it's actually One To One when a jock does things correctly.
He or She is speaking to one person and making a connection. It is an intangible part of Radio that has been lost.

I worked at many stations and had substantial input on the playlists. It's called curated content. Sometimes people actually like new and different content when it's presented in an intelligent way. The swill that Radio serves up today is forgettable and disposable...

 

[davideduardo]

Why do people watch a movie when they didn't write the script, direct it, or hire the actors?

People don't watch movies over and over when they are new, and hundreds of times over the years. And most people don't "act along" with a whole movie but we sing along with our favorite songs for years.

They could just make their own little videos.

Songs are not movies.

Radio may be One To Many, but it's actually One To One when a jock does things correctly.

Assuming a listener wants, today, to be talked to.

He or She is speaking to one person and making a connection. It is an intangible part of Radio that has been lost.

Except that most people under 45 to 50 don't want "friends on the radio" today. They want a nice curated music blend. For friends, people go to social media.

I worked at many stations and had substantial input on the playlists. It's called curated content. Sometimes people actually like new and different content when it's presented in an intelligent way. The swill that Radio serves up today is forgettable and disposable...

It is also determined by listeners, not station insiders who don't feel "the street".

Over and over I have tested a list with key staff... including myself... and we were significantly off what listeners actually liked and wanted to hear. There are valuable lessons to be learned by doing your music test... or at least the first 100 songs or so... with the program staff and then discussing how a station needs to be listener driven and not programmed to make the staff happy.

If the stations you were at took into account your opinion on music, they were making a mistake. Insiders can't possibly reflect the audience.

P.S. The best way to get the sales staff from giving programming opinions is to have a couple of the sellers do a portion of the test and compare the results with listener "votes".

 

[tbolt909]

It is also determined by listeners, not station insiders who don't feel "the street".
If the stations you were at took into account your opinion on music, they were making a mistake. Insiders can't possibly reflect the audience.

Sorry, but you're wrong. The stations had strong sales results and listener passion. Feedback from listeners was very positive. They appreciated hearing new songs/artists and album tracks from heritage artists. The stations were designed to feature interviews and in studio performances from musicians. The staff was passionate about talking about music, not what they had for breakfast. Listeners and advertisers responded to it.

This approach may not work for every format, but you're totally wrong saying it was a mistake. Radio could offer a wider menu than hot dogs & hamburgers. They choose not to because it's too hard and takes expertise...

 

[Delete My Account]

How is asking listeners what they want to hear a joke? Much worse is letting the personal opinion and taste of a jock determine what is played.

In mainstream formats yes. Playing the hits works. But as you've pointed out in the cases of some independent or smaller stations, there's exceptions to every rule.

For the most part, the exceptions to this rule are in non-commercial, listener supported radio. Formats that depend on the support of listeners. And generally, these stations didn't get great numbers.

Except now, they are seeing success on both fronts. Stations like The Current, KEXP and KUTX are institutions in their market and seen as very connected to their communities and scenes. And it's not all old white guy record store obscurity. The Current's honoring of the legacy of Prince, breaking artists like Lizzo that later become mainstream. KEXP's good ratings while creating a community space and DJ curated programming. Listeners in Seattle, at least a sustainable number of them, appreciate John Richards and Kevin Cole not only curating music but actually speaking to societal issues. And KUTX, which is eclectic even for its format, just reached #2 in Austin behind "Bob FM" which is itself a unique variety hits station.

Is it a solution for most stations? No. But there are some very talented curators of music, keeping radio diverse and interesting to those who value that curation and connection, powered by DJs who, while not being too self indulgent, know the music and present something to listeners a streaming service doesn't.

I reject the idea as a universal truism that says "influencers" matter on every new digital platform there is, but are somehow inherently selfish or irrelevant when it comes to music radio - and when it comes to the music itself.

 

[davideduardo]

Sorry, but you're wrong. The stations had strong sales results and listener passion. Feedback from listeners was very positive. They appreciated hearing new songs/artists and album tracks from heritage artists. The stations were designed to feature interviews and in studio performances from musicians. The staff was passionate about talking about music, not what they had for breakfast. Listeners and advertisers responded to it.

I had a station in a 30+ station market (no rimshots and no daytimers either) that was the #1 music station. We picked our own music until we decided to try testing.

As I said, #1. But the songs we had programmed turned out to be 40% wrong and about 80% in the wrong rotations. We were market veterans with programming experience at several very significant stations and we "liked" the music we played.

But by testing we reinforced our position, got rid of the stiffs and made the best songs play more often. The numbers improved with greater TSL. In this case we made a good station even better.

This approach may not work for every format, but you're totally wrong saying it was a mistake. Radio could offer a wider menu than hot dogs & hamburgers. They choose not to because it's too hard and takes expertise...

No. It is just wrong always to let a couple of people who never can separate personal taste from mass appeal to dictate to listeners what they should hear. When you combine programming skills in the areas of music flow, rotations, contrast and feel with songs picked by the listeners you have the best chance at winning.

As a note, it is important to state that nobody can research new songs. Every one is a gamble. that's why most of us, when confronted by on open new song slot will pick the big name artist first... then the up and coming artist... then the new one. And even then half of what we start playing never makes it to recurrent or stiffs out by the end of a year. On library songs I would rather let the listeners tell me what is right than go with personal opinion that is only right about half the time!

 

[The New Chico]

Can't wait for this thread to span 79 pages and branch into twelve different in depth topics.

I can't wait either. Because that is how conversations work. Though there is always "that guy" in every thread who gets uptight if the conversation doesn't fit under a strict guideline set out by the original post. 79 pages that branch out into 12 categories is a success, my friend. That means you have an engaged comment section. And you can learn so much on those side threads.

 

[Deleted User]

79 pages.... that's nothing

Come on over to any motorcycle or car forum and ask what type of oil you should use or what filter is best ( the answer is Wix BTW) and those threads go hundreds of pages.

One forum I frequent has a COVID thread that is currently at 1144 pages and 34921 posts.....

 

[michael hagerty]

Sorry, but you're wrong. The stations had strong sales results and listener passion. Feedback from listeners was very positive. They appreciated hearing new songs/artists and album tracks from heritage artists. The stations were designed to feature interviews and in studio performances from musicians. The staff was passionate about talking about music, not what they had for breakfast. Listeners and advertisers responded to it.

This approach may not work for every format, but you're totally wrong saying it was a mistake. Radio could offer a wider menu than hot dogs & hamburgers. They choose not to because it's too hard and takes expertise...

Whether something works or not depends on the market and whether a station is commercial or a non-comm. Ratings pressure drops enormously if you're not trying to get in on agency buys.

tbolt909, I notice you're using the past tense in referring to these stations. Can you share which stations they are, and whether they're still doing it that way?

 

[The New Chico]

79 pages.... that's nothing

Come on over to any motorcycle or car forum and ask what type of oil you should use or what filter is best ( the answer is Wix BTW) and those threads go hundreds of pages.

One forum I frequent has a COVID thread that is currently at 1144 pages and 34921 posts.....

Example- I just learned to investigate Wix filters. On a radio forum. That's GREAT!

 

[landtuna]

Rigid formats became the rule in the early 50's starting in '51 at KOWH in Omaha. Jocks at music stations were told what songs to play and in what places in each hour.

I can't speak to music stations nationwide but I can tell you that in 1956-7 Frank Kalil at KTKT (Top 40 then) in Tucson used to have a meeting with his jocks weekly and along with Hooper/Pulse chose the next week's spins. The station also took call-in requests pretty much all day long (it was a daytimer then). AFAIK KTKT was free to play whatever Frank and company chose and at one time that station had half the listeners in Tucson. KAIR, programmed by Kalil as well, did much the same thing but did devote more spins to new releases.

Another big difference from yesterday are the current lack of DJ personalities. People would tune in to listen to a specific jock and jocks were popular in their own right no matter what music they played. People who listen to music stations now seem to want nothing more than a jukebox never mind that modern rock/pop is some of the most terrible music since radio was invented. Combine that with the absence of an interesting DJ and you are left with nothing more than 5 minute commercial sets for entertainment. I carry my personal music libraries with me on my smartphone and memory stick but increasingly find myself not even listening to those.

 

[landtuna]

Except that most people under 45 to 50 don't want "friends on the radio" today. They want a nice curated music blend. For friends, people go to social media.

I'm not sure I buy that. When my mid-30's son and his friends talk about what they listen to it is usually the "zoo" type radio shows that determine their preference. Perhaps they are still immature males but it a definite trend in my family because the 45-year old was very similar. They seem to recognize the music but prefer listening to DJ Doofuss blather instead.

It is also determined by listeners, not station insiders who don't feel "the street".

In the old days <cough cough> the jocks used to do personal appearances. Weekend remotes, Saturday morning theater shows. I even had one very popular DJ come to a friend's birthday party. That doesn't happen any longer.

 

[davideduardo]

I can't speak to music stations nationwide but I can tell you that in 1956-7 Frank Kalil at KTKT (Top 40 then) in Tucson used to have a meeting with his jocks weekly and along with Hooper/Pulse chose the next week's spins.

Hooper and Pulse had nothing to do with music. They were ratings companies that issued a report in small markets once a year.

That said, in the mid-50's there was nothing but Billboard and Cash Box and Record World to know about new songs. It was not until late 57 or so that stations got the Gavin Report that showed what Top 40 stations all over the country were adding, playing and dropping.

The station also took call-in requests pretty much all day long (it was a daytimer then). AFAIK KTKT was free to play whatever Frank and company chose and at one time that station had half the listeners in Tucson. KAIR, programmed by Kalil as well, did much the same thing but did devote more spins to new releases.

Back then, stations had format clocks that were color coded. They had bins or boxes for each color category and the colors corresponded to things like Top 5 6 to 15, 26 to 30 and 31 to 50 and new songs. The next song in each color would be played and then put in the back of the stack.

Added later: Until around 1960, stations played 45's directly. And it was not until well into the 60's that most stations had their music on carts. So that is why on many smaller market stations that did not get good label service the first few seconds of every song sounded like driving on a gravel driveway!

Today's music computer systems do exactly the same but with more control.

Another big difference from yesterday are the current lack of DJ personalities. People would tune in to listen to a specific jock and jocks were popular in their own right no matter what music they played. People who listen to music stations now seem to want nothing more than a jukebox never mind that modern rock/pop is some of the most terrible music since radio was invented.

And you are way out of the generation that CHR stations attract. Today's young people in their majority think that Fats Domino and Paul Anka are dreadful.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm not sure I buy that. When my mid-30's son and his friends talk about what they listen to it is usually the "zoo" type radio shows that determine their preference. Perhaps they are still immature males but it a definite trend in my family because the 45-year old was very similar. They seem to recognize the music but prefer listening to DJ Doofuss blather instead.

Morning shows are different... they are like "real time podcasts" and have content. Do that the rest of the day and you listeners are gone.

In the old days <cough cough> the jocks used to do personal appearances. Weekend remotes, Saturday morning theater shows. I even had one very popular DJ come to a friend's birthday party. That doesn't happen any longer.

And that is because we have instant access to real stars online.

 

[michael hagerty]

By coincidence, I listened this morning to an aircheck of Damion on KLOS, Los Angeles, working an evening shift (this was the 7:00 hour) in April of 1978.

The most recent ratings book would have been fall of '77. KLOS was #6 overall, and apart from two beautiful music stations (KBIG and KJOI), it was the highest-rated music station in Los Angeles (the rest of the top 5 included a talk station (KABC) and two all-news stations (KNX and KFWB).

The aircheck only runs about 24 minutes, but here's what got played on one of the most successful AORs in the country at that time, in the early evening:

Santana-Evil Ways
Rod Stewart-Hot Legs
Leo Sayer-How Much Love
Billy Joel-Movin' Out
Fleetwood Mac-Rhiannon

So, yeah---it wasn't rocking as hard as we remember.

 

[michael hagerty]

By coincidence, I listened this morning to an aircheck of Damion on KLOS, Los Angeles, working an evening shift (this was the 7:00 hour) in April of 1978.

The most recent ratings book would have been fall of '77. KLOS was #6 overall, and apart from two beautiful music stations (KBIG and KJOI), it was the highest-rated music station in Los Angeles (the rest of the top 5 included a talk station (KABC) and two all-news stations (KNX and KFWB).

The aircheck only runs about 24 minutes, but here's what got played on one of the most successful AORs in the country at that time, in the early evening:

Santana-Evil Ways
Rod Stewart-Hot Legs
Leo Sayer-How Much Love
Billy Joel-Movin' Out
Fleetwood Mac-Rhiannon

So, yeah---it wasn't rocking as hard as we remember.

Left one out---Crosby, Stills and Nash "Guinnevere" in between Billy Joel and Fleetwood Mac.

 

[tbolt909]

Left one out---Crosby, Stills and Nash "Guinnevere" in between Billy Joel and Fleetwood Mac.

The 70s had a lot the California Vibe. Rock & Roll was exactly that. The "Roll" part was jettisoned by Rock Radio formats. 80s hair bands took over. Of course, Nirvana and Pearl Jam came along later and made hair bands totally uncool.

Jackson Browne, Traffic, Eagles, Warren Zevon, Little Feat, and hundreds more I could list were part of FM Album Rock playlists at one time...

 

[vchimpanzee]

Combine that with the absence of an interesting DJ and you are left with nothing more than 5 minute commercial sets for entertainment.

If I am in the car on a station that has commercial breaks that long, I'm changing stations. There are two times when this happens: Christmas, and when I go to the mountains and the one station I can hear everywhere that comes close to being good is iHeart classic-leaning country WESC. There's not really anything else to turn to if WESC is doing commercials. Some of those are good, though.

I carry my personal music libraries with me on my smartphone and memory stick but increasingly find myself not even listening to those.

People having been telling me for years to do something like that. I've always been reluctant because I'd get the same songs over and over. Actually, that's what's happening now with KTUC Tucson. The best music mix I've found online, but it's always the same few songs, with a few surprises. The big band show is the same songs every week.