Carly Simon is classic rock?

[michael hagerty]

OMG, the above list came from a station that was classified as Rock & Roll?!? I see Henry Gross's name here, and though he may have recorded some harder material, the only song of his that I know is "Shannon," one of the syrupiest records around! And the operatic-sounding Minnie Ripperton got R&B and AC airplay, but I don't know how she ended up here. This isn't to say that these artists and their songs weren't good, I'm just surprised to see them here!

This situation reminds me of a thread on this forum about the 2021 Hall of Fame nominees. That discussion concerned the evolution of what "Rock & Roll" meant in the '50s when Alan Freed coined the term, to what it means today. I didn't remember, or deliberately forgot, much of what came in between.

Cordelia:

This list was from the year before Henry Gross released "Shannon". Henry was a founding member of Sha Na Na, played with them (at the tender age of 18) at Woodstock, and then went off on his own the next year (1970) releasing three solo LPs before the one that had "Shannon". The album you see on this chart, in fact, was his best-selling album, peaking at #26. The one with "Shannon" only made #64. He sold a ton of singles, and pretty much ruined his reputation.

As for Minnie, not only did she get album rock airplay, on the China Smith aircheck I've referenced, she does a station break ("Hi this is Minnie Riperton and we're listening to KMET, ninety-four-point (hits a really high note)-seven!"

 

[Cordelia Chase]

In fact, album rock radio somewhat gave birth to a similar format termed Mellow Rock, that contained the folksier and acoustic side of album rock radio.

Could that be compared to the Americana side of present-day Alt Rock?

 

[michael hagerty]

No, it was a composite based on what "album rock" and "progressive" stations were playing in February 1975. I was living in the Boston area and listening to WCOZ at the time and, while I don't remember some of these artists getting airplay, Ronstadt, Dylan, Mitchell, Scott-Heron and others were very much present on the playlist back then.

Many of the others were played on WEEI-FM, which in those days was doing a softer album rock format, the ancestor of later "lite" formats. The music was softer, folkier, and in some cases poppier. Lots of Ronstadt, lots of Dylan, lots of Mitchell and Taylor and, especially, Billy Joel. Rarely the hit singles, mostly album tracks. I'm guessing that similar stations were reporting to the trade publications (like Radio & Records) too, and what resulted were charts like the one Mr. Hagerty has posted -- songs being played on stations all loosely defined as "album" or "progressive."

CTListener:

The WEEI-FM and KNX-FMs (both CBS "Mellow Sound" stations) weren't considered album rock stations and weren't R&R album rock reporters at this point. They were considered more Adult Contemporary than AOR (they started with core artists like John Denver, Bread and Carpenters). It was '76 or '77 before they started to be factored in on the Rock airplay charts---at the moment when the trend was away from the softer, broader approach.

 

[michael hagerty]

In fact, album rock radio somewhat gave birth to a similar format termed Mellow Rock, that contained the folksier and acoustic side of album rock radio. Although short lived, the format had some success in a few major markets for a couple of years. Lots of Dan Fogelberg, Joni Mitchell and any others including healthy doses of Crosby Stills Nash & Young, America, Eagles and other base library artists. Like album rock radio, the emphasis was on album tracks but frequently a single from an album was pushed until it began to appear on top 40 or AC radio. I always thought this was the downfall of the format...encouraging listeners to migrate to AC.

Well, I don't know that playing a song on KNX-FM would necessarily encourage someone to go looking for that song on another radio station. The downfall of the format (which peaked in L.A. in '76 but had survivable numbers into the early 80s) was really the trend toward harder sounds and the natural cycle of artists' careers. A station like that is going to get a lot more mileage out of Joni's COURT AND SPARK than it will MINGUS (or even DON JUAN'S RECKLESS DAUGHTER).

 

[tbolt909]

Could that be compared to the Americana side of present-day Alt Rock?

Rock & Roll can be many things. Singer-Songwriters like Dylan, Jackson Browne, Springsteen. Stones, Who, Wilco, Bowie, Bob Marley, and on & on. The genre is not limited to any one style. The Byrds made some Country records and were crucified in Nashville. They weren't accepted because they had long hair.

Tightly programmed radio formats have nothing to do with what motivates musicians. True artists will roam into different territory. They are influenced by many styles...

 

[michael hagerty]

That's the format WEEI-FM had. I believe CBS Radio tried it elsewhere (Philadelphia for sure, I ran into a very similar station while visiting there that summer). In Boston, an AM station, WEZE 1260, briefly became "Album 1260," playing an even more adventurous mix of softer album tracks, but was then sold to a religious outfit (Crawford, IIRC) and went teach-and-preach.

WEEI-FM had a memorable billboard ad campaign. "Eagles. Without the turkeys." "Linda Ronstadt. Without wondering what just blue bayou."

KNX-FM went for more of an image-based approach:

 

[tbolt909]

No, the question was: Is Carly Simon's music considered rock?

And the answer is YES. When record stores were plentiful, you would have found her in the POP/ROCK section...

 

[michael hagerty]

Could that be compared to the Americana side of present-day Alt Rock?

Maybe. Hard to draw parallels back 45 years. Here's an aircheck of KNX-FM, with the then-Music Director, Michael Sheehy as the jock from 1978. It begins with the final couple of minutes of Jackson Browne's "The Pretender". He tells us that before that was The Eagles' "Desperado", but the set began with Bread and "Aubrey", which is too soft and too commercial for FM rock radio at that time---or for that matter, even when "Aubrey" was new five years before:

Mixcloud

www.mixcloud.com

 

[michael hagerty]

And the answer is YES. When record stores were plentiful, you would have found her in the POP/ROCK section...

You've just handed Kelly a loaded gun, there, tbolt909. Carpenters, Olivia Newton-John, John Denver and Bread were there, too. Heck, so were Donny and Marie Osmond.

The key---as we've established---is that Carly got rock (not pop) radio airplay through at least the PLAYING POSSUM album.

 

[Kelly A]

You've just handed Kelly a loaded gun, there, tbolt909. Carpenters, Olivia Newton-John, John Denver and Bread were there, too. Heck, so were Donny and Marie Osmond.

Exactly. You wouldn't hear The Osmond's along with AC/DC anywhere. I actually worked in Top40 back in those days. All the artists you mentioned we played, but we never-ever called those artists Rock. Rock music was (at the time) the FM guys down the street. Sure, there was rock crossover to top40, with Stairway to Heaven and artists like Steve Miller, but in the day, not the other way around.
Up until recently I part-owned a station that ran Classic Hits-formatted that played some pop to rock crossover for the generation that lived through both. That's why they call it Classic Hits. Mixing top40 with AOR today is so you geezer-nerds can think at one time you were actually considered cool. You weren't then, and still aren't today.

 

[CTListener]

CTListener:

The WEEI-FM and KNX-FMs (both CBS "Mellow Sound" stations) weren't considered album rock stations and weren't R&R album rock reporters at this point. They were considered more Adult Contemporary than AOR (they started with core artists like John Denver, Bread and Carpenters). It was '76 or '77 before they started to be factored in on the Rock airplay charts---at the moment when the trend was away from the softer, broader approach.

Pretty sure EEI-FM wasn't playing Denver, Bread or Carpenters in '75 but memories can get fuzzy in (gulp) 47 years. Those were being played on AC 24/7 and even Top 40 during middays and overnights.

 

[tbolt909]

Exactly. You wouldn't hear The Osmond's along with AC/DC anywhere. I actually worked in Top40 back in those days. All the artists you mentioned we played, but we never-ever called those artists Rock. Rock music was (at the time) the FM guys down the street. Sure, there was rock crossover to top40, with Stairway to Heaven and artists like Steve Miller, but in the day, not the other way around.
Up until recently I part-owned a station that ran Classic Hits-formatted that played some pop to rock crossover for the generation that lived through both. That's why they call it Classic Hits. Mixing top40 with AOR today is so you geezer-nerds can think at one time you were actually considered cool. You weren't then, and still aren't today.

This is a bit ridiculous now. The Beatles were considered Rock & Roll. They had scores of hits on Top 40 Radio. They also had album tracks played on FM stations in the 70s. The term "Rock" can be twisted into many shapes. Some people would call the Carpenters "Light Rock".

Again, none of this has anything to do with Radio formats. Carly Simon being called a "Rock" artist can be technically correct. That doesn't mean she would tour with Black Sabbath. (Who knows. Maybe she did!)
Hendrix once opened for the Monkees...

 

[michael hagerty]

Sure, there was rock crossover to top40, with Stairway to Heaven and artists like Steve Miller, but in the day, not the other way around.

What you're missing (and I suspect deliberately, Kelly), is that the artists in question didn't go the other way around---Top 40 to album rock. The songs broke from album rock and crossed over to Top 40. Album Rock had been playing Phoebe Snow's "Poetry Man" for six weeks before it crossed to pop. Same with Minnie Riperton---pop radio was two months behind. Michael Murphey's "Wildfire" didn't get traction on Top 40 and AC until mid-April. KMET was playing it on the 11th of February.

Whatever your memory tells you, this was fairly common. FM rock was often done with these tracks---and in some cases--the entire album---by the time pop radio woke up to the first single.

 

[CTListener]

This is a bit ridiculous now. The Beatles were considered Rock & Roll. They had scores of hits on Top 40 Radio. They also had album tracks played on FM stations in the 70s. The term "Rock" can be twisted into many shapes. Some people would call the Carpenters "Light Rock".

Again, none of this has anything to do with Radio formats. Carly Simon being called a "Rock" artist can be technically correct. That doesn't mean she would tour with Black Sabbath. (Who knows. Maybe she did!)...

Jimi Hendrix opened for The Monkees. The Beatles' 1966 show in Boston had Bobby Hebb ("Sunny") as one of the supporting acts. A different era.

 

[michael hagerty]

CTListener beat me to Hendrix and the Monkees while I was typing it.

 

[gr8oldies]

That's the format WEEI-FM had. I believe CBS Radio tried it elsewhere (Philadelphia for sure, I ran into a very similar station while visiting there that summer). In Boston, an AM station, WEZE 1260, briefly became "Album 1260," playing an even more adventurous mix of softer album tracks, but was then sold to a religious outfit (Crawford, IIRC) and went teach-and-preach.

WEEI-FM had a memorable billboard ad campaign. "Eagles. Without the turkeys." "Linda Ronstadt. Without wondering what just blue bayou."

I mentioned WVUD, Dayton above. The ID and slogan were simple.
"WVUD FM Kettering.......The Radio Station"

 

[gr8oldies]

Jimi Hendrix opened for The Monkees. The Beatles' 1966 show in Boston had Bobby Hebb ("Sunny") as one of the supporting acts. A different era.

As Michael indicated above, the lack of aircheck trading of AOR stations means we're missing the format as it actually was, as opposed to our personal memory, which was often of head-banging metal with advertisers being record stores and head shops.

 

[michael hagerty]

As Michael indicated above, the lack of aircheck trading of AOR stations means we're missing the format as it actually was, as opposed to our personal memory, which was often of head-banging metal with advertisers being record stores and head shops.

gr8oldies:

If you go back to yesterday, I posted playable links to airchecks of most of the major FM rock stations in California—-dozens, if not hundreds of hours.

Being a native Californian, that’s what I know, but there’s a guy, Javed Jafri, with a great site full of album rock airchecks from other parts of the country and Canada. Like the ones I posted, all you do is click and play:

https://lettheuniverseanswer.com/

 

[Harvey_Dogg]

AOR was certainly not the same thing nationwide. In Philadelphia you'd hear deep cuts of Genesis with Peter Gabriel. Also, The Strawbs and Renaissance. You never heard those in Dayton. Dayton was still mostly British Progressive Rock though. However in Indianapolis it was a lot of REO Speedwagon, Bob Seger, and CCR.

No!!!! Carly Simon is not Classic Rock. But Classic Hits, she is fine there. And, Top 40 back in the day was pretty eclectic.

As for us old geezers, you will miss us when right wing younger people take over your world very soon.

 

[Kelly A]

No!!!! Carly Simon is not Classic Rock. But Classic Hits, she is fine there. And, Top 40 back in the day was pretty eclectic.

Ladies, gentlemen and nerds, we have a winner! God bless you my son!

As for us old geezers, you will miss us when right wing younger people take over your world very soon.

They won't miss us, nor will we care because we'll be dead. At least we will have set the record straight away from these 'Osmonds are rock'-revisionists.