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Carmakers Against HD-Satellite Radio Combo

http://fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=787584

"GM and Toyota conclude that if HD Radio technology were mandated, then there would be "no incentive to be fully responsive to the demands of the marketplace." Also, a "mandate will inherently distort the normal incentives to cost reduce and further improve the HD product offering.""

I read this to mean that Ibiquity needs to be more competitive and less reliant on the government if they want deeper penetration of HD Radio, particularly in cars.

They need to stop treating HD Radio technology as if it's some kind of national treasure.

C5
 
Carmine5 said:
http://fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=787584

"GM and Toyota conclude that if HD Radio technology were mandated, then [it]"will inherently distort the normal incentives to cost reduce and further improve the HD product offering.""

I read this to mean that Ibiquity needs to be more competitive and less reliant on the government if they want deeper penetration of HD Radio, particularly in cars.

Or it could mean "If you MAKE us include HD in a radio subsidized by a satcaster, then Ibiquity will never pay us for incusion of their technology in cars like XM/Sirius does now"

This is all about automakers getting paid. Look at the "Subscriber aquition cost" for XM Sirius. Over $100 per sub I believe? That ain't spent on TV spots, folks. That's going into the pockets of companies who manufacture and sell cars. This is all about payoffs. Follow the money trail.

Clouseau
 
So are you saying that the iBiquity financial model works better than those of XM-Sirius? Let's check the line score:

Satradio: loses money, has 16 million listeners, and is universal in today's radio landscape (just got off an AirTran flight with "XM Radio On This Aircraft" placards on the fuselage and XM signs in the jetway.)

HD Radio: loses money, most generous estimates give it 500,000 receivers, audiences too minuscule to measure, station installs in steep decline.

Maybe if iBiquity's plan focused less on lining its own pockets on every level (licensing for exciters and royalties on every processor) its system would have seen better market penetration by now. Or, as you frequently say, "or maybe not," since HD's many technical flaws are probably the leading reason it's stiffing badly.
 
Savage said:
So are you saying that the iBiquity financial model works better than those of XM-Sirius? Let's check the line score:

Satradio: loses money, has 16 million listeners, and is universal in today's radio landscape (just got off an AirTran flight with "XM Radio On This Aircraft" placards on the fuselage and XM signs in the jetway.)

HD Radio: loses money, most generous estimates give it 500,000 receivers, audiences too minuscule to measure, station installs in steep decline.

Maybe if iBiquity's plan focused less on lining its own pockets on every level (licensing for exciters and royalties on every processor) its system would have seen better market penetration by now. Or, as you frequently say, "or maybe not," since HD's many technical flaws are probably the leading reason it's stiffing badly.


Bob, let's bring a sense of reality into this thread. You continue to talk about IBOC station installs declining. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Where are these stations? I just tuned around the FM band last night and now WJLK in Asbury Park, NJ (about 80 miles from my home) is running an IBOC exciter. I keep seeing more installs and now with stations like WJLK, Asbury Park which certainly isn't a major market, the technology is continuing to move from major markets into smaller markets. If you meant to say IBOC AM, then say so. By the way, WINS (1010) and WQEW (1560) in NYC are two new IBOC stations. For a technology that you say is failing, it sure is continuing to grow and assuming that you are right, that to me is amazing.
 
R F Burns... for every one like you who avidly promotes HD, there are hundreds of us who see HD Radio for what it is. I live and work in a top 25 market, and the HD offerings (when they're actually working) consists of largely spotty reception of jukebox audio with an occasional ID, unless you can see the tower from where you happen to be. We can do that with an IPOD that slips in your pocket. Some of the HD FM offerings actually almost maybe approach the quality of the analog FM, but most don't. Some of the HD's in this market are having trouble even staying on.

The technology (I'm talking FM) has a very long way to go to be viable. There is no point in even bothering with the AM HD...it even interferes with itself in certain radios. And to think- the proposed "fix" for FM HD is to increase the HD levels by 10 db, so they'll also interfere with adjacent channel FM stations, just like AM HD does...BRILLIANT!

I personally know of at least a couple of stations that have HD capability, but choose not to run it for now. The last installs were about 6 months ago, and those I know who haven't installed HD yet (roughly a third of the market) have no plans to do so.

LaidBackJack
 
R.F. Burns said:
You continue to talk about IBOC station installs declining. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Where are these stations? I just tuned around the FM band last night and now WJLK in Asbury Park, NJ (about 80 miles from my home) is running an IBOC exciter. I keep seeing more installs and now with stations like WJLK, Asbury Park which certainly isn't a major market, the technology is continuing to move from major markets into smaller markets. If you meant to say IBOC AM, then say so. By the way, WINS (1010) and WQEW (1560) in NYC are two new IBOC stations. For a technology that you say is failing, it sure is continuing to grow and assuming that you are right, that to me is amazing.

Whether transmitter installs are increasing or declining is irrelevant. The most basic aspect of communication theory holds that communication requires a transmitter AND a receiver. Every station in the country could add HD tomorrow, and it still wouldn't matter to the overwhelming majority of the population. I still wait, obviously in vain, to see how many receivers have actually been sold and not returned. iBiquity (the only outfit in a position to know, since they are owed a license fee for each processor) won't tell us, and the only conclusion I can draw from that is: it's not a figure they would want to "crow" about. I'm not sure where the usually-bandied-about half a million figure comes from, but if it's even somewhat close to the truth, this bird ain't flying when there are 800-million-plus analog sets already in the hands of consumers.
 
Let me clarify, RF - what I meant was, the RATE of HD installs is declining. After the initial spurt of Alliance-owner big-group stations and NPR outlets (subsidized by federal funding for HD installs) the rate slowed to a trickle. Everybody knows this. Look at the regularly-published HD Scorecard (actually a house ad for Broadcast Electronics) which appears regularly in RW.

WINS and WQEW? Both are Alliance-affiliated owner stations (CBS, the perpetrators of IBOC, and Disney which for some inexplicable reason thinks its subteen AMs should be in HD - I would suspect some kind of typical blanket corporate mandate operating here.) Check Barry McLarnon's station list for HD-AM at http://topazdesigns.com/iboc/station-list.html - arguably the most accurate, most-frequently updated tabulation of HD-AM operators. Some high (low)-lights:

260 operating HD-AM - after over FOUR years of implementation, and most are "digital daytimers," with only 87 on with HD at night! That's TWO PERCENT of AM stations running HD fulltime (including, to be extra-charitable, SIXTEEN stations listed as "intermittent operation.")

And please, please spare us the oft-repeated argument "but those 260 stations cover 93% of the US population" (or 98% or 88% or whatever this week's claim is.) That's ridiculous and everyone knows it's ridiculous. Coverage of landmass or population doesn't mean anyone's actually listening. Looking at the McLarnon list, I would bet the total of HD-AM operating stations comprise less than 20 percent of all AM listening in the US including both analog and digital, with HD-AM digital-only audiences "negligible," or "too small to measure."

Add to this how you can't buy the dopey radios any more at retail - most major electronics stores have bailed including Radio Shack - and it's hard to see how anyone can seriously argue that HD-AM is a meaningful answer for the band's ailments, even if IBOC worked, which it doesn't.

On the FM side, we now have the abrupt reversal of HD proponents who have told use tirelessly, tiresomely, against massive evidence in the field, that the digital coverage is "as good as" the analog - that there now needs to be a TENFOLD hike in digital power for the system to work reliably. Make no mistake - this time, HD has worn out its welcome. The 10db proposal has a lot of opposition. NPR doesn't support it, and neither does the legal arm of the NAB.

Either HD Radio is going to fly or it isn't. With carmakers firmly not-on-board with HD (unless you guy a $4000 electronics package in a freakin' Hyundai) and internet radio making immense strides - WYSL's streaming audience has quadrupled over the past year - I'm betting on the latter.
 
LaidBackJack said:
R F Burns... for every one like you who avidly promotes HD, there are hundreds of us who see HD Radio for what it is. I live and work in a top 25 market, and the HD offerings (when they're actually working) consists of largely spotty reception of jukebox audio with an occasional ID, unless you can see the tower from where you happen to be. We can do that with an IPOD that slips in your pocket. Some of the HD FM offerings actually almost maybe approach the quality of the analog FM, but most don't. Some of the HD's in this market are having trouble even staying on.

The technology (I'm talking FM) has a very long way to go to be viable. There is no point in even bothering with the AM HD...it even interferes with itself in certain radios. And to think- the proposed "fix" for FM HD is to increase the HD levels by 10 db, so they'll also interfere with adjacent channel FM stations, just like AM HD does...BRILLIANT!

I personally know of at least a couple of stations that have HD capability, but choose not to run it for now. The last installs were about 6 months ago, and those I know who haven't installed HD yet (roughly a third of the market) have no plans to do so.

LaidBackJack

"Avidly promoting"? I am just not as anti IBOC technology as most of the suscribers to this board are. Anyone who doesn't hold the IBOC = corrupt business would be considered an avid supporter by many on this board. I heard the same kind of doomsday, anti rants from the group that opposed CD's as non musical back in the 1980's. By the way, CD players were in the 700$ and up catagory in those days. And Bob, good for you that your audience has discovered your internet feed. Of course as we move more towards the internet and away from the current method of broadcasting, stations like WYSL will have to invest in more local programing because no one will listen to or sponsor any of the syndicated programing now heard on your station (There will be no reason to). As for the rate declining that isn't unusual. You speak as though that is an oddity. In our market for example, WFUV is already running discrete live programing on their HD 2 channel and WNEW FM HD-2 is being advertised on WFAN. WNEW HD 2 is a broadcast of many of the WNEW FM programs and music of the late 60's/70's. Thne there's Smooth Jazz on 101.9. People I know who used to listen to that station have purchased HD radios to continue listening. In the end though I won't convince anyone here that anything about HD radio is positive. Believe what you will. It's only your opinion and if that's how you see the world that's OK with me. As long as you don't prevent me from having an opinion of my own I think we'll get along just fine.
 
Savage said:
Add to this how you can't buy the dopey radios any more at retail - most major electronics stores have bailed including Radio Shack - and it's hard to see how anyone can seriously argue that HD-AM is a meaningful answer for the band's ailments, even if IBOC worked, which it doesn't.

Last time I was in a Radio Shack (about three weeks ago) all the HD displays had been taken down. I asked the kid behind the counter about HD and he had no clue. However, that store recently added an aisle right up front with a full selection of candy bars and chewing gum.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/even_ceo_cant_figure_out_how

I've got it! Let's design an HD Radio with a built in PEZ dispenser!
 
Yes, one that spits out a fuzzy, rutabaga-flavored, smaller-than-usual-Pez 8 seconds after you flick the toggle. ;D

RF, far be it from me to deny you either your opinions or your right to express them. I fully understand - and respect - your observations about IBOC, AM and FM. And I appreciate your demeanor on this board, which is spirited without being mean.

Actually WYSL programs more local material than our big-owner competitors do. Besides local news and service elements we originate a local talk show daily which is now syndicated to seven other regional stations.
Most evenings are local and live. Weekends, with the exception of Ingraham and O'Reilly on Saturdays, are local/live. If the day comes when network talk programming is irrelevant because everyone's listening on the web, WYSL will have a shorter walk to accomplish more local fare than most.

I think that the web is more likely to become an alternate means of delivery for local stations, like local TV via the web, bird and cable, than a complete replacement for terrestrial radio. Remember the lesson the NAB has apparently forgotten (or never knew) with their lame "Radio Heard Here" campaign. Listeners identify with stations, not with "radio" as a concept.
 
R F Burns... you're right. It is only my opinion to me or you. And you are certainly entitled to yours. But- there are many hundreds, even thousands of tech types all over this and every other board that serves broadcasting that share a similar view as mine.

I'm not opposed to proven, reliable technology- new or old. I AM opposed to having fatally flawed and prohibitively expensive technology rammed down my throat by financial zealots. The difference between the CD example you pointed out and HD Radio is simply this- the CD actually works! and...I don't have to pay an annual licensing fee to the CD inventor just for the privilege of serving the public interest.

All these years of debate over whether or not the current iteration of digital radio will ever work or not is an increasingly moot point, as a previous poster has rightfully pointed out. Retailers and the Public have soundly rejected the first offering. It's now time for the inventor types (Ibiquity, et al) to take the medicine, and start over. Only this time, be sure the product actually works BEFORE it goes to market.
 
Yes, Jack, you're right. And while we're at it:

TO: iBiquity or successor-innovator
RE: Some kind of digital radio

a. Make sure it works technically - no kidding, now, it actually has to WORK
b. Make sure it offers an benefit likely to be perceived by the average consumer
c. Make it financially and technically attractive and beneficial to the station operators
d. Make it available with equanimity to all, and fairly - no elitism pitting broadcasters against each other
e. Make the technology available without egregious, confiscatory licensing
f. Show some humility and respect for broadcasters, listeners and retailers you want to involve with your
innovation

Otherwise: stay tuned (if you can actually get an HD signal.) Oblivion is comin' right up after the break.
 
This is all moot. IMHO with Internet going into cars by the end of this year, HD radio is done. Throw it in the pile that the DAT player is in.
 
I don't know what you're talking about, I listen to HD all the time.

Well, OK, I STREAM it, as I have no idea where to buy an HD radio and wouldn't spend the money to do so, but....

;D
 
lpAZ said:
This is all moot. IMHO with Internet going into cars by the end of this year, HD radio is done. Throw it in the pile that the DAT player is in.

Yeah, except the DAT (to paraphrase someone else) actually worked. So did the MiniDisc.

HD Radio seems to be the only digital audio delivery system that came out of the oven half-baked--in spite of its lengthy baking time (12+ years). It is still a work-in-progress. And each change in the specification brings with it an obsolescence of any HD-R product prior to it.

Broadcasters and consumers deserve better.

C5
 
HD Radio seems to be the only digital audio delivery system that came out of the oven half-baked--in spite of its lengthy baking time (12+ years). It is still a work-in-progress.

All technology is a "work in progress" unless it's considered obsolete. Kodak is no longer working on film based tech. How much development do you "think" is being done on audio/video cassette?


And each change in the specification brings with it an obsolescence of any HD-R product prior to it.

Even the current generation of HD radio is of the "smart" remote upgradeable design.

You might want to back off on the bias and check your facts first.

Lino
 
LinoNYC said:
HD Radio seems to be the only digital audio delivery system that came out of the oven half-baked--in spite of its lengthy baking time (12+ years). It is still a work-in-progress.

All technology is a "work in progress" unless it's considered obsolete. Kodak is no longer working on film based tech. How much development do you "think" is being done on audio/video cassette?


And each change in the specification brings with it an obsolescence of any HD-R product prior to it.

Even the current generation of HD radio is of the "smart" remote upgradeable design.

You might want to back off on the bias and check your facts first.

Lino

The first HD Radios to appear did not have HD2/HD3 tuning capabilities. No "stations between stations."

Concerning conditional access, we have this quote from a Radio World article dated 3/28/07:

"Equally important, with conditional access, reading service users could listen on next-generation HD Radios instead of the specialized SCA-capable units they use now. Current HD Radios could not be retrofitted for this purpose, D’Angelo said."

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.4028.html

So there's no bias here.

The question is, what new services will the geniuses at Ibiquity come up with that will obsolete current HD Radios? I'm sure you'll be anxious to know.

C5
 
LinoNYC said:
HD Radio seems to be the only digital audio delivery system that came out of the oven half-baked--in spite of its lengthy baking time (12+ years). It is still a work-in-progress.

All technology is a "work in progress" unless it's considered obsolete. Kodak is no longer working on film based tech. How much development do you "think" is being done on audio/video cassette?

LP's made in 1953 still work today on brand new turntables, yes their fidelity got better as time went on but they were always compatible, CD's from 1985 still work in brand new CD players, may not sound quite as good but they work, in fact my 1929 Majestic Model 72 150 lb 4 foot high console radio with doors and legs still picks up CHWO with a short wire antenna and still sounds half way decent to boot, many advances in radio (and one big um..... temporary reversal) but it is still compatible with todays AM broadcasts.
 
LinoNYC said:
HD Radio seems to be the only digital audio delivery system that came out of the oven half-baked--in spite of its lengthy baking time (12+ years). It is still a work-in-progress.

All technology is a "work in progress" unless it's considered obsolete. Kodak is no longer working on film based tech. How much development do you "think" is being done on audio/video cassette?


And each change in the specification brings with it an obsolescence of any HD-R product prior to it.

Even the current generation of HD radio is of the "smart" remote upgradeable design.

You might want to back off on the bias and check your facts first.

Lino

Oh and BTW, Kodak has just recently introduced a new line of color negative film called Portra and new line of motion picture film stock called Vision 3. Film is still a major part of their business, especially with professional still photographers and the motion picture industry.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/portra/400main.jhtml

http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion/Products/index.htm

Maybe YOU need to check your facts.

C5
 
Carmine5 said:
LinoNYC said:
HD Radio seems to be the only digital audio delivery system that came out of the oven half-baked--in spite of its lengthy baking time (12+ years). It is still a work-in-progress.

All technology is a "work in progress" unless it's considered obsolete. Kodak is no longer working on film based tech. How much development do you "think" is being done on audio/video cassette?


And each change in the specification brings with it an obsolescence of any HD-R product prior to it.

Even the current generation of HD radio is of the "smart" remote upgradeable design.

You might want to back off on the bias and check your facts first.

Lino

Oh and BTW, Kodak has just recently introduced a new line of color negative film called Portra and new line of motion picture film stock called Vision 3. Film is still a major part of their business, especially with professional still photographers and the motion picture industry.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/portra/400main.jhtml

http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion/Products/index.htm

Maybe YOU need to check your facts.

C5

And I stand corrected on MP film, however you might want to read these and understand the facts:

http://wsjclassroom.com/archive/05nov/mktg_kodak.htm

Kodak has outlined a plan to phase out film operations, while building up digital sales in medical imaging and commercial printing as well as consumer digital lines

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070208/ai_n17228427

Quoting Antonio Perez Kodak CEO "Film is going to follow its own destiny," he said. "Right now, entertainment (motion-picture) imaging is very stable, is very good for the company. ... If that goes digital, which eventually I believe it will, then we'll do something else. We will do what's better for the shareholders."

From the above article: It (Kodak) is now eliminating 28,000 to 30,000 jobs by year-end, with 23,300 already axed. And the sale of its 111-year-old health unit -- intended to help fund its bold leap into the inkjet printer market - - will strip another 8,100 jobs. That will shrink its payroll to around 30,000, its lowest level since the 1930s.

Reads like AM radio doesn't it.

Then we have these remarks of yours:
The first HD Radios to appear did not have HD2/HD3 tuning capabilities. No "stations between stations."

Concerning conditional access, we have this quote from a Radio World article dated 3/28/07:

"Equally important, with conditional access, reading service users could listen on next-generation HD Radios instead of the specialized SCA-capable units they use now. Current HD Radios could not be retrofitted for this purpose, D’Angelo said."

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.4028.html

So there's no bias here.

The question is, what new services will the geniuses at Ibiquity come up with that will obsolete current HD Radios? I'm sure you'll be anxious to know.

Well, if you read the article w/out your bias you find that "conditional access" will most likely be used, if at all, for certain copyright situations and to lure the "great" Howard Stern back to radio. what a joke. Overall, the Satellite dilemma has probably squelched any move toward pay radio.

BTW: the first consumer hd radios went on sale in early 2004 with the first multicast capable debuting in Sept 2005.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Sept_6/ai_n15345987?tag=untagged

Anyway, if iboc is the flop you claim, there is nothing to worry about. Lino
 
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