CBS RADIO

[Bob E. Nelson]

...and welcome to those who hopped over from Classic TV where a discussion of television affiliates with differing network affiliations on the radio side prompts this thread.

In short, whatever happened to the dominance of CBS Radio? That's a very broad topic but I'll narrow it down a bit and be more specific.

It seems that in the late 80's, CBS Radio had undergone a resurgence. A lot of big, legacy stations that had drifted to other affiliations or become independent joined (or in some cases rejoined) CBS.

In my part of the world, this included 50,000 big guns like KTRH/Houston, WOAI/San Antonio and KOMA/Oklahoma City (now KOKC). All of those have since dropped CBS Radio. I also recall that after a flirtation of a few years, WHAS returned to the CBS fold from ABC.

It seems that there was a big push to get affiliates during about a 5-year span as the 80's drew to a close. As time passed, stations affiliated with CBS Radio became less common. Within earshot of Dallas-Ft. Worth, aside from O&O KRLD, I don't hear the distinctive bong before the news sig on as many facilities as before. In contrast, ABC Radio is ubiquitous.

 

[Cincinnati Kid]

Perhaps like the other traditional radio networks, the listernship to it via the various local affiliates just wasn't there. I think there was even the feeling by some stations that when a network newscast came on, listeners would tune out. As such, more local newscasts were aired.

That is a shame when you consider the greats of the past from CBS Radio alone. I know even in the early 1950's, with TV beginning to draw people away, CBS proudly advervised its radio network, "The Stars' Address is CBS". That was not long after Bill Paley got a number of entertainers to come over to the network from NBC in what was called "Paley's Talent Raids". In the news department, CBS gained prominence in the 1930's and continued that for decades. Kind of shame. It's hard to find much being aired from the networks like it used to be.

 

[cd637299]

As I was born in 1959, I cannot vouch for the history of CBS Radio, but as a teen it seemed to me that of all the radio networks, CBS came across as the most polished, with top-of-the-hour news, a few 5-minute sports reports scattered throughout the day, and other lifestyle features, which seemed just right for the full-service/MOR stations around the country.

Our Miami CBS station prior to my birth was WGBS 710, but as a kid/teen it was WKAT 1360, which was a talk station after 1967. As a talker, it seemed as if CBS Radio was fine for them. They had all the features above plus the CBS Radio Mystery Theater in the 70s, despite the talk format. There was also baseball & college football.

I believe 'KAT carried some shows that had a simultaneous TV run---House Party being one, possibly until CBS Radio discontinued it.

I suppose that in this day and age, CBS Radio (as displayed above) would never work, just like doing a new "NBC Monitor."

cd

 

[TheBigA]

In short, whatever happened to the dominance of CBS Radio?

They tried to become program syndicators in the 80s. They had their FM service called RadioRadio. And they did some weekly music shows. But that whole area of entertainment syndication because cluttered with dozens of companies offering very similar shows. Ultimately, they gave up on entertainment beyond entertainment news.

But the central part of CBS Radio in the modern age was the hourly news and the association with the TV news product. That's still there now, but the credibility of CBS News has taken a hammering with Dan Rather and Katie Couric. These days, news is more about characters and images rather than journalism. So you have the rise of Fox News Radio. People associate that brand with the characters on the cable channel. Hard to run a conservative news/talk station with Katie Couric. So I think it's a basic change in the way the audience views news. CNN Radio is also struggling with that identity problem. ABC Radio isn't associated with an ideology yet, so it can run on a station without being identified as either liberal or conservative.

The other problem has been the long decline of AM, which was the legacy address of the radio networks. So as listeners left AM, starting in the 70s, it left fewer people to listen to network programming. Fewer people means less money, which translates to less programming.

 

[Corky Marlowe]

The radio side of CBS News doesn't seem quite as lefty as the TV side, except for Dave Ross, who is MSNBC-grade liberal.

 

[therealjm12]

I have never noticed a slant on radio network news except commentary like Paul Harvey, etc. When my local news station (Clear Channel) dropped CBS radio for Fox News I was outraged. After a while, I noticed there really isn't any slant there either. Just kinda of a faster paced news - nothing like the TV network. Believe me I have listened to hear anything that would sound like it was slanted, even inflection in their voices but it's not there. Just the news.

 

[FreddyE1977]

In my personal view, the rapid deterioration of CBS News on the television side
has tended to carry the radio network down the drain with it. A top rate
national news service is one of the major things that would attract affiliates
and listeners to a network, and CBS just doesn't have it anymore.

 

[fybush]

I respectfully disagree. The people I know at CBS Radio News - and I know a lot of them - still take their product very seriously. The radio network newsroom in the Broadcast Center on W. 57th Street is in the very space that was occupied by Walter Cronkite's original TV newsroom, and the old-timers there appreciate that legacy, right down to framing the Vietnam map that appeared behind Uncle Walter and maintaining it in a place of honor over an editor's desk.

A poster in another thread made the assertion that CBS Radio News is no longer produced by CBS News Division employees. This is not the case. Not only are the radio newspeople still part of CND, even the guys in radio network master control down the hallway are still CBS employees, working under contract to WW1.

No, CBS isn't what it once was - the DC bureau has been gutted, and the Radio Stations News Service, which was once a phenomenal source of news product for the CBS O&Os (and the former Westinghouse O&Os when we came into the fold in the mid-90s) is gone, with many of its staffers having moved elsewhere. I always chuckle when I hit the network at my current job at an NPR member station and hear Pam Coulter, long a staple of the RSNS, anchoring the NPR hourlies...but I'm very glad she's found a good job, since she's one of the best in the business.

CBS is the last of the old-line radio network newsrooms that's still anything more than a shell of its former self. "NBC" and "Mutual" are now merely WW1 brands (with newscasts produced, in some cases, by CBS News Division employees), and ABC Radio News, while still produced by ABC/Disney employees, has been wracked by layoffs and cutbacks since its sole customer, Citadel, is in such bad shape.

 

[MattParker]

@Scott: Walter Cronkite's original TV newsroom was in the Graybar Building on Madison Avenue next to Grand Central Terminal.

Whatever the place of CBS Radio News employees on corporate personnel charts, they function as a distinct and separate operation from CBS (TV) News, CBS2, Newsradio880 and 1010 WINS.

And the on-air product is not what it was, either - no where close. The most obvious example is the World News Roundup, which has become like the Holy Roman Empire - neither World News nor a Roundup. It's another hourly newscast with cut-aways and fillers - lots of fillers since stations, including Newsradio 880, are cutting out at :04 and they have to get all the good stuff in before then. The stories are not more in-depth than regular newscasts and there a few of the think piece type of reports from CBS foreign correspondents which were once the hallmark for the program. This is understandable because CBS News (none of them) has either the quantity or quality of foreign correspondent it once had - people who lived in-country, new the territory and spoke the language. Now it's a few beat reporters in combat zones and a few big-foot "correspondents" who drop in.

 

[TheBigA]

I don't think the purpose of any endeavor is to remain "as it was." That's what museums are for. The preservation of the past. CBS News exists as a service for radio stations, who use it as they wish. There really isn't a free standing CBS Radio Network any more. Just a news service and some associated materials. But it's all owned and run by CBS, not anyone else.

 

[cd637299]

Things change over time.....as I'm a little over 50, as a child I remember our CBS radio station (according to radio listings) running audio of the TV series "House Party." Of course even earlier, they ran regular programs that TV eventually usurped, like soap operas, dramas/comedy/variety at night.

When TV took over, radio had to change, including the radio networks. I think radio did well responding to the changes, giving news on the hour, some features that would include music (like NBC Monitor), etc. But in the 70s & 80s it seemed like only news reports, and now, people don't even want *that* on the radio.

CBS Radio was pretty decent as I was growing up. I used to listen to Mystery Theater, a daring attempt by CBS to go back to those days of yesteryear. That, in addition to the news, and sports scores/features ("all sports" radio was only a dream then).

But, yes, things have changed, and we can't go back.

cd

 

[MattParker]

Things do change. The question is do they change for better or worse?
Maybe we can't go back but we can learn from the past. And we can halt a decline.
CBS Radio News has not evolved, it has declined.

And maybe, just maybe, we can go back. Exhibit A is Apple.

 

[TheBigA]

Things do change. The question is do they change for better or worse?

I don't think we can make that judgement. Things exist in the context of their time. The thing to do is compare CBS Radio News to other current radio choices. That's how the marketplace works, that's how the listeners judge it, not compared to what they did 50 years ago.

I can't tell you how many artists and composers I've interviewed who've tried to compete with their past, including folks like Paul McCartney, Michael Jackson, and Paul Simon. You can't do it. The past is the past, and that's it. I saw Oprah talking to JK Rowling, and they agreed. JK won't write another Harry Potter, and she doesn't want her future work to be compared, and same with Oprah and OWN.

 

[LKellerIII]

Things change over time.....as I'm a little over 50, as a child I remember our CBS radio station (according to radio listings) running audio of the TV series "House Party." Of course even earlier, they ran regular programs that TV eventually usurped, like soap operas, dramas/comedy/variety at night.

When TV took over, radio had to change, including the radio networks. I think radio did well responding to the changes, giving news on the hour, some features that would include music (like NBC Monitor), etc. But in the 70s & 80s it seemed like only news reports, and now, people don't even want *that* on the radio.

CBS Radio was pretty decent as I was growing up. I used to listen to Mystery Theater, a daring attempt by CBS to go back to those days of yesteryear. That, in addition to the news, and sports scores/features ("all sports" radio was only a dream then).

But, yes, things have changed, and we can't go back.

cd

I'm 58, and remember House Party on the radio, too - also Arthur Godfrey and a few other programs. My mother's favorite radio station was KNX - their O&O in Los Angeles. Even in the 60s, KNX was a mix of local and CBS programming. The most notable local show was probably Bob Crane's morning show, which featured his comedy, and MOR music. He quit when he got Hogan's Heroes.

KNX had a lot of other local shows (talk, cooking shows, etc), but also ran all of CBS's programming, which was news intensive. On weekends, KNX ran only MOR music, with the exceptions of top-of-the hour network news, and somebody reading local headlines.

What happened, in my opinion, is that the old model of "full service" radio stations faded away. KNX started to feel serious competition in 1968 when KFWB became "All News, All the Time", and by the mid 70s, had moved closer to that model.

 

[fybush]

@Scott: Walter Cronkite's original TV newsroom was in the Graybar Building on Madison Avenue next to Grand Central Terminal.

Oy. :

Yes, of course the original TV news operation was not at the Broadcast Center. The space within the Broadcast Center now occupied by network radio news, however, is the space most commonly associated with Cronkite's newsroom/studio, having been custom built for the purpose in 1964. Cronkite's "original" newsroom/studio on the 29th floor of the Graybar Building was in use for only a year or so, from the start of the half-hour newscast in 1963 until the move to the west side the next year. (Before that, the network news had originated from the old Studio 41 above Grand Central, with a small newsroom next door at the Graybar Building.)

Whatever the place of CBS Radio News employees on corporate personnel charts, they function as a distinct and separate operation from CBS (TV) News, CBS2, Newsradio880 and 1010 WINS.

That's not the original, inaccurate claim you made, which was that CBS Radio News employees aren't part of the News Division.

And it's no different from the way things have been all along. While WCBS-TV's news operation has bounced back and forth from the News Division to separate operation over the years, Newsradio 880 has always been its own entity. Even today, though it's located within the Broadcast Center, it's up on the eighth floor behind its own locked doors, as physically and operationally separate as it can be from the network. (And it will eventually move downtown to Hudson Street with WINS.)

When Cronkite was at the Graybar, network radio news was uptown at 485 Madison. Wouldn't that also have counted as a "distinct and separate operation"?

 

[MattParker]

@Scott: I guess function follows form. NBC had plenty of room at 30 Rock for radio and TV news operations and so those were more closely integrated (along with radio and TV local news operations). CBS didn't have room at 485 Madison to add TV and set up the TV newsroom in the Graybar Building. Early on, Douglas Edwards with the News originated in Liederkranz Hall on 58th Street, which meant everybody had to schlep uptown with all the materials prepared for the broadcast. Later they used the space above Grand Central (now a tennis club) as the TV studip, which meant schleping everything through the train station before the broadcast (up to Labor Day, 1963 when the broadcast expanded to 30 minutes and the newsroom studio in the Graybar building was used for the first time). Physical separation combined with some disdain for TV among the radio old guard gave TV some autonomy and a great deal of separateness.

I defer to your assertion that the people who answer the phone "network news" and produce material for "CNN Radio" and "NBC Radio" are carried on the books as CND employees, even though they don't seem to much act like it. As an example, Charles Osgood has long done commercials on the radio and required a waiver to a CBS News policy against personnel doing commercials in order to host Sunday Morning.

It is my understanding that Jack Schneider divorced O&O TV news from CND in order to put more commercials into the local news than CND policies allowed. At that time Jim Jensen replaced CBS News correspondents Robert Trout and Douglas Edwards on the local news in New York. And the network stopped using reports from O&O and affiliate reporters (unless forced to do so by circumstances).

 

[TheBigA]

@Scott: I guess function follows form. NBC had plenty of room at 30 Rock for radio and TV news operations and so those were more closely integrated (along with radio and TV local news operations).

And yet in 1982, NBC Radio News, along with the rest of NBC Radio operations, moved out of 30 Rock to 1700 Broadway, into studios originally constructed by ABC. They remained in that building until around 1990. Based on what I understand, NBC Radio News wasn't any more integrated than CBS. Even in Washington, NBC Radio had its own bureau on H Street, closer to downtown than the TV bureau on Nebraska Avenue. Radio had its own exclusive correspondents covering the same White House and Congressional stories as TV. But radio also had access to the TV talent and their reports.

I defer to your assertion that the people who answer the phone "network news" and produce material for "CNN Radio" and "NBC Radio" are carried on the books as CND employees,

CNN Radio is based in Atlanta, and all are employees of CNN. My understanding is that NBC Radio is staffed by Westwood One and MSNBC employees, not CBS. The rights to NBC Radio News are held by Westwood One, not CBS.

 

[fybush]

I'm pretty sure BigA is right that all "CNN Radio" branded content comes out of Atlanta; I think some newscasts branded as "NBC" and "Mutual" may be produced by CND personnel in New York under contract to WW1, but I'm not certain of that.

It's been my experience that at least some of the old CBS News traditions continue to be held sacred. Back in 1995-96, when WBZ was transitioning from the Group W mantle to the new "CBS Radio" group that was briefly headquartered upstairs in our Boston building, I was doing a lot of stringing for the various networks with which we were affiliated (AP, CNN, ABC and eventually CBS.)

Once we became an official "CBS Radio" O&O, I thought I'd be safe locking out with "Scott Fybush, CBS News, Boston" - but that drew an immediate (and forceful!) rebuke from New York...we weren't part of CND, and so the lockout still had to be "for CBS News."

As for Osgood, my understanding is that because of the live-read commercials, "The Osgood Files" on radio is not a CND product, though it's distributed by the CBS Radio Network. It seems to me that if the old CND standards no longer applied to radio, there would be no need to stand on that distinction, yet it persists.

 

[TheBigA]

I'm pretty sure BigA is right that all "CNN Radio" branded content comes out of Atlanta; I think some newscasts branded as "NBC" and "Mutual" may be produced by CND personnel in New York under contract to WW1, but I'm not certain of that.

To the best of my knowledge, the Mutual brand has been phased out. It's not on the WW1 website.

 

[cd637299]

I'm pretty sure BigA is right that all "CNN Radio" branded content comes out of Atlanta; I think some newscasts branded as "NBC" and "Mutual" may be produced by CND personnel in New York under contract to WW1, but I'm not certain of that.

To the best of my knowledge, the Mutual brand has been phased out. It's not on the WW1 website.

That means, no more "bee-doop." Oh well.

cd