Changes at Clear Channel/San Francisco

[ContactLenz]

Talking about the AM's, and some of their other stations in general...not a blanket for all of CC or all of SF.

Not about needing a hug, about having realistic expectations of a station's success based on the tools and infrastructure present to support it.

BTW, what is wrong with expressing appreciation?  That is a bit of a lost art, pat on the back and acknowlegement beats getting nothing if you cannot reward the work/effort otherwise.

My point is you cannot have "Champagne" taste on a "beer" budget...then act surprised when a station(s) do not succeed against others who have the infrastructure.  

So to reiterate...CC SF's talkers have some of the inherent issues I first mentioned in the original post.

I have worked for CC in many markets, have seen the good and bad, but the one thing that was apparent at each locale, was the idea you had to do "less is more" in regard to running an operation, and the expectation was to still compete on equal footing with established stations who had the tools...

Then when it did not work, it left the CC folks to scratch their heads as to why it failed.

Which left me scratching my head as to why they couldn't figure it out why it failed.

If CC is realistic about the reality of KNEW and KKGN in this market, then those stations can do okay and may serve their audience.  But if CC has any delusions of grandeur that either of those stations should compete with KSFO or KGO, then they are extremely unrealistic given CC's history and financial issues.

 

[TheBigA]

My point is you cannot have "Champagne" taste on a "beer" budget...then act surprised when a station(s) do not succeed against others who have the infrastructure.

No one has "infrastructure" any more. We're all living on the edge. As I said, the playing field has leveled.

CBS may still have some money, but it hasn't helped KFRC.

And I'm old enough to remember that we were able to get a lot done with beer money. Some of us may have become too comfortable with champagne taste of the late 90s. But I'm here to say those days are over. Time to learn how to live and compete on a budget.

 

[ContactLenz]

Big A...you still are missing the point..."Infrastructure" meaning support from within.

I agree that money doesn't flow from tap.

But I can tell you having worked for Jacor (which became CC) that they have always operated this way.

They should know/learn by now that a beer budget while expecting to hit specific revenue targets that are champagne already puts a programmer/station at a disadvantage.

How many WS have the Pirates won in the last decade? ZIP.

Same with the A's and Twins...two very frugal organizations...they compete, but they don't win.

How many for the Yankees and Red Sox...3 in last 5 years!

So again, I do not think intelligent radio pros expect the caviar budgets of the past, or of that of the Yankees and Sox. But don't expect your "team" to be a winner and compete with a budget of the KC Royals, then fire everyone or complain you are not having success when you get your clocked cleaned by the competition.

I know it is a different field, but it is the same idea.

I do not know many if any programmers who could take the CC AM's in town here and make them truly successful (ratings and revenue).

My guess is that they are run so inexpensively that they may break even, but again that ain't winning and competing. So be honest with the PD and tell him/her to keep budget in check, and hopefully you/we will get lucky, because the current plan ain't working.

The former PD was pretty good one, and he was shown the door...replaced by a guy who likely will focus very little on the 2 AM's and worry more about the FM. That is CC in a nutshell; have multiple properties, but only a few who are profitable that carry the freight for the rest of the cluster...yea, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[DavidKaye]

but it spotlighted KSOL back when it was in Foster City...and how THEY went from worst to first. Know what I noticed? People...Lots of 'em. Can't do it without people - although CC and others have certainly tried.

Which KSOL? The callsign KSOL has been applied to 1450, 107.7, and 98.9, all under different ownerships and different formats. The first time a station called KSOL made it into the top 4 in Arbitron, people thought it was a mistake because they'd never seen an "urban" station get high ratings before.

Oh, and KSOL has never been in Foster City. It's been at 1232 Market in SF, 600 S Bayshore (now Amphlett) in San Mateo, and now it's at 750 Battery in SF.

 

[TheBigA]

Big A...you still are missing the point..."Infrastructure" meaning support from within.

If you mean money flowing from San Antonio or New York to San Francisco, it's not going to happen. Their system seems to be built around the regional and local VPs solving their own money problems. That's how a market retains a level of autonomy.

I agree with your comment about the AMs. I think that was the original goal of the FCC in requiring big companies to take some loser AMs along with the stronger FMs, knowing that it was the only way to keep those AMs on the air at all. It's all intentional on the part of the government.

 

[ContactLenz]

And I will respectfully disagree with you on the point of CC and other big operators "having" to take on loser AM's.

CC's strategy was to "corner" a/the market...making it where you had to buy their stations or you'd miss out on 55% of the market share.

So CC gobbled up all the stations they could per deregulation and the Telcomm Act of 96 and tried to own the market by literally owning each market per station max and audience %.

If the FCC were (and they were not) concerned about smaller AM's failing, then they had very short sighted preventative intuition.

The way it has been, and it is worse now, is that the big operators have either sold off the loser stations, or leveraged them (in the case of CC) for bigger stations.

The same thing, which is nothing, could have been accomplished by creating a marketplace for smaller independent owners. They maybe would have failed as well, but at least you'd have the possibility of another sole proprietor to step up to buy an under performer, someone whose only station (or 2-3) where those stations, not 500 or 1000 that offered something specific to its market. That would have led to more diverse programming, which may have failed also, but at least there would have been a more honest attempt to create a viable product, and failure on the merit of trying to fill a niche, versus protecting a flank.


In this case, all CC did was take advantage of the rules of the game; I do not begrudge them for that. However I do not have sympathy for them when they cannot figure out why some of their stations under perform, when they cannot see that those same stations are often under supported, and not given the tools needed to be viable. That is, and seems to be (until some epiphany) their blind spot.

 

[TheBigA]

And I will respectfully disagree with you on the point of CC and other big operators "having" to take on loser AM's.

You can disagree, but it's in the law, and if you read the discussions that led to the law, you will see that the FCC was in fact concerned about small AMs. Their decision kept those AMs alive longer than expected. As David Eduardo often says, AM radio has lived longer in the US than most other countries.

I'd suggest you read the 96 Act, because there were safeguards in it to prevent any company from dominating a market in revenues or audience. CC has been forced to sell off stations, or place stations into trust, because they've exceeded FCC mandated market caps.

The big companies were forced to buy losers with the good ones. I'd say that most of CC's stations were losing money when they bought them, and are still losing money now. If you study the financials of the groups they bought after de-regulation, it's pretty obvious that the bad stations outnumbered the good. They have no choice now but to eat those stations, because no one wants to buy them at any price. If those stations had been profitable, they would not be in the financial state they're in now.

The problem with small independent operators is (1) they can't get loans because the SBA doesn't provide money for broadcasting, (2) they have no programming resources, so they end up running syndication, and (3) they're often run by people who have very limited or no broadcasting experience. Now that the banks have tightened credit, things are even worse, and the government hasn't done a single thing to help small business buy radio stations. There are thousands of stations available, mostly AMs, and they stay on the market because small operators can't get the money. But even if they do, they'll be forced to cut costs even worse than the big guys, because the economy is so bad.

 

[btone1035]

Add to this the cutting of live air talent to relate to the listeners in virtually every daypart but mornings, and you've set the stations up for failure.

Failure? KYLD, KIOI, KMEL, and KISQ seem to be doing quite nicely, thank you. It's their AMs that are suffering.

I wouldn't go that far saying that KMEL is doing quite nicely. They are still decent to listen to(despite I listen to them online since I live in Sacramento-KSFM and KBMB are dull), but they are not the same they were in the previous years. If they were to play more real hip-hop, more West Coast, and have someone dump Big Von as music director and have his on-air hours cut on the weekdays (3-10 way too long-KMEL has become the Big Von station), then KMEL will be back on track. But KMEL still have their moments.

 

[DavidKaye]

I wouldn't go that far saying that KMEL is doing quite nicely. They are still decent to listen to(despite I listen to them online since I live in Sacramento-KSFM and KBMB are dull), but they are not the same they were in the previous years. If they were to play more real hip-hop, more West Coast, and have someone dump Big Von as music director and have his on-air hours cut on the weekdays (3-10 way too long-KMEL has become the Big Von station), then KMEL will be back on track. But KMEL still have their moments.

They do well in 18-34, regardless of what you think is a good format.

 

[LKellerIII]

I wouldn't go that far saying that KMEL is doing quite nicely. They are still decent to listen to(despite I listen to them online since I live in Sacramento-KSFM and KBMB are dull), but they are not the same they were in the previous years. If they were to play more real hip-hop, more West Coast, and have someone dump Big Von as music director and have his on-air hours cut on the weekdays (3-10 way too long-KMEL has become the Big Von station), then KMEL will be back on track. But KMEL still have their moments.

They do well in 18-34, regardless of what you think is a good format.

It does seem odd that KMEL's overall 12+ ratings (the 'beauty contest') have fallen so far recently. Maybe Hip Hop is losing some of its popularity - I'm too out of touch to know the reasons.

I've tuned in "Star 101.3" a number of times recently. Again, being a fogey, I'm not really in touch with what music is popular these days, or how their play list differs from other similar stations (Alice, etc.). Most new CHR music I hear I find to be pretty mediocre...and I do realize I sound like my parents in 1967.

But I'd say that as a radio station..mostly voice tracked or not, KIOI is much better than it was a couple of years ago. Don Bleu is no different, but Seacrest's show (like him or not) actually has some content. The night jock is either live, or does a better job than usual of hiding the voice-tracking. And it's certainly more in tune with the format than John Tesh's odd show was.

 

[DyingMedium]

Jeeez...Foster City, San Mateo...Whatever. Used to cut thru Foster City off the San Mateo Bridge to get to it....Which KSOL? Well...I mentioned it was 1980 and the report was from MacElhatton. That's a pretty good clue right there. Thought you know all this, DK.

 

[btone1035]

I wouldn't go that far saying that KMEL is doing quite nicely. They are still decent to listen to(despite I listen to them online since I live in Sacramento-KSFM and KBMB are dull), but they are not the same they were in the previous years. If they were to play more real hip-hop, more West Coast, and have someone dump Big Von as music director and have his on-air hours cut on the weekdays (3-10 way too long-KMEL has become the Big Von station), then KMEL will be back on track. But KMEL still have their moments.

They do well in 18-34, regardless of what you think is a good format.

I never said that their format was bad. I think it's better than most stations that mainly play pop songs and little hip-hop all day. But, far as 18-34 demo, that's laughable.

 

[btone1035]

I wouldn't go that far saying that KMEL is doing quite nicely. They are still decent to listen to(despite I listen to them online since I live in Sacramento-KSFM and KBMB are dull), but they are not the same they were in the previous years. If they were to play more real hip-hop, more West Coast, and have someone dump Big Von as music director and have his on-air hours cut on the weekdays (3-10 way too long-KMEL has become the Big Von station), then KMEL will be back on track. But KMEL still have their moments.

They do well in 18-34, regardless of what you think is a good format.

It does seem odd that KMEL's overall 12+ ratings (the 'beauty contest') have fallen so far recently. Maybe Hip Hop is losing some of its popularity - I'm too out of touch to know the reasons.

I've tuned in "Star 101.3" a number of times recently. Again, being a fogey, I'm not really in touch with what music is popular these days, or how their play list differs from other similar stations (Alice, etc.). Most new CHR music I hear I find to be pretty mediocre...and I do realize I sound like my parents in 1967.

But I'd say that as a radio station..mostly voice tracked or not, KIOI is much better than it was a couple of years ago. Don Bleu is no different, but Seacrest's show (like him or not) actually has some content. The night jock is either live, or does a better job than usual of hiding the voice-tracking. And it's certainly more in tune with the format than John Tesh's odd show was.

Hip-hop is still highly popular. Hip-hop concerts such as Rock the Bells still sellout. Rock the Bells sold out in the Bay Area(or came close to) this past summer. The problem with KMEL is many people are tired of hearing Gucci Mane, Drake, Lil Wayne, Plies, southern artists, and Trey Songz all day. R&B is not bad. Some people rather hear the same artists all the time because of familiarity, but a majority wants a variety. variety was what made KMEL dominant. Now, at times, they are copycatters and repeat the same songs all day.

 

[ContactLenz]

Big A, I am familiar with the act..and that concern was more window dressing than substance from the FCC.

Arguing the worthiness of AM is irrelevant to this conversation...it is about stations being run poorly or into the ground, and said owner not understanding why said stations are not successful. Part of that is their own doing, yet they do not want to be culpable for it.

I disagree about the protecting provision, and I know the Telecomm Act of 96 is the law, I even said I didn't begrudge CC taking advantage of the rules

I am well aware CC had to sell of, I know what is going, this ain't my first rodeo.

My issue, in plain speak, is that CC cannot expect to have some of their weaker stations perform as winners when they do not support them accordingly. Or to compete with the established stations in the market unless they invest as the top tier does in those winning stations.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[TheBigA]

Or to compete with the established stations in the market unless they invest as the top tier does in those winning stations.

Maybe you can educate me: Who is investing lots of money in their stations in San Francisco? Citadel? Really?

 

[SFStatic]

Citadel has the higher ground....has had better ratings for decades, especially at KGO. Yes, they have big money invested in their live talent, and they're live and local on KGO all day. KSFO now only has a local morning show, but they pay big money to clear Rush....really big money.

 

[LKellerIII]

Jeeez...Foster City, San Mateo...Whatever. Used to cut thru Foster City off the San Mateo Bridge to get to it....Which KSOL? Well...I mentioned it was 1980 and the report was from MacElhatton. That's a pretty good clue right there. Thought you know all this, DK.

I recall that for a long while in the 80s, 107.7 KSOL was the number one music station with an urban format (until KMEL beat it a few years later). Their city of license was San Mateo. Last I heard, that is still the COL for the current 107.7, KSAN.

Since we're talking about "infrastructure," I recall that while KSOL in that era was very popular with their urban format , it was a very bare-bones sounding station. They had a 2 person news department in keeping with the era (one was Dave Padilla - now on KCBS), but the station did almost no imaging or branding - the jock just said "107.7, KSOL" and it was into the music. I don't recall that they did contests, had "street teams" or did any of the promotions that became so popular in the 90s.

Later, when KMEL became a big competitor, they became "Wild" and stepped up their game.

 

[ContactLenz]

BigA...you just want to argue and parse every word.

When I mean invest..spend, and yes they spend more on their stations then CC on their AM's. Again that does not mean Citadel is throwing money at their stations, but they kept most the staff intact (yes a few changes and downsizing).

So, using common sense, if Citadel is spending more on KSFO and KGO in support of keeping them at or near the top than CC on KKGN & KNEW, my point, for the 3rd time, is that CC cannot blame a programmer or the state of the economy on why those two stations are not more successful or competitive, when they offer very little, if any tools.

Making this as simple as possible for you...if that sounds condescending then forgive me, but you change the parameters of the discussion (by throwing in AM's relevance, or how much money is spent) and lose the point on what I am saying.

CC has traditionally operated this way with some of their stations, yet cannot figure out that the lack of support (of any kind) is what prevents those stations from competing on a more equal footing.

Again that is it..nothing more, nothing less.

Citadel spends more/supports more their AM's than CC in this market. CC should not expect for their AM's to compete in equal footing (if they do, or expect such great returns) when they do not support said stations in kind.

 

[TheBigA]

So, using common sense, if Citadel is spending more on KSFO and KGO in support of keeping them at or near the top than CC on KKGN & KNEW, my point, for the 3rd time, is that CC cannot blame a programmer or the state of the economy on why those two stations are not more successful or competitive, when they offer very little, if any tools.

That assumes that's the reason they fired the programmer.

Here's the reality, and I think other posters have already said this. Those two CC AM stations are never going to get the numbers that KGO or KCBS get. It doesn't matter how much money or staffing they throw at those stations. It's obvious that only a handful of AM stations are going to survive. The main factors to their survival will be heritage and signal. We're seeing that now in LA with CBS and KFWB. A lot of posters are saying CBS should pour money into a 5-K AM, and that'll return it to its former glory. At some point, you're throwing good money after bad. Radio has to be selective where it pours its money, and win where it can. It's not 1990 any more, and it's not 2004 any more. A lot of these stations are going to fall by the wayside in the next few years, and it won't matter how much money was spent. I suspect, in reading what you've said, that CC has decided that these two stations are unimportant to their overall strategy in the market, and its time to focus where they can expect the most return.

 

[ContactLenz]

Reading your latest thought BigA, I cannot disagree with what you layed out.

You speak, I feel, some truth in the lay of the land.

So, if CC has no expectations of those stations, as compared to the big players in a similar format, then yea, why throw money at them?

Just not sure what they expect, and of course if I did, I think we'd all be further ahead.

I am not sure why they canned their PD...likely is was cost cutting. But if it was for performance, as I have clearly stated, I think CC is shortsighted and unrealistic in their expectations of KKGN and KNEW.