Changes at KGO

[davideduardo]

If KQED is not beating up KCBS for news, it should be. As I understand it, the problem with commercial news stations is that the format is expensive, and they have to run a huge commercial load to make a profit. The constant commercials are mind-numbing.

KQED wins in share by, on average, about about 40% SF in 25-54. KCBS pulls closer in 55+ which seems logical as the "22 minute" approach is one that goes back to "X-tra News over Los Angeles" in 1960 and the SF implementation later in that decade.

Interestingly, the 25-54 cume of the two is nearly identical.

In 18+ persons, the share is much tighter, with KCBS winning. KCBS leans older, a detriment in sales. KQED does not care about sales demos as much as "donor demos" and its image among underwriters.

KQED is more of a long time-span listening format, which is logical given the longer form content. So on similar cume, it wins based on TSL.

 

[LKellerIII]

KQED wins in share by, on average, about about 40% SF in 25-54. KCBS pulls closer in 55+ which seems logical as the "22 minute" approach is one that goes back to "X-tra News over Los Angeles" in 1960 and the SF implementation later in that decade.

Interestingly, the 25-54 cume of the two is nearly identical.

In 18+ persons, the share is much tighter, with KCBS winning. KCBS leans older, a detriment in sales. KQED does not care about sales demos as much as "donor demos" and its image among underwriters.

KQED is more of a long time-span listening format, which is logical given the longer form content. So on similar cume, it wins based on TSL.

Thanks David, makes sense. A historical question - did the slogan "Give us 22 minutes, and we'll give you the world" originate in the mid 60s at 101/WINS in NYC? IIRC, that all news station pre-dated KFWB by at least a few months, and both were owned by Westinghouse.

 

[CaliRadioFan]

I would imagine the price on the 50k watt flame throwers would not be cheap, even today. I suppose Salem could raise some bucks selling off their current AM's if stations like KCBS and KGO became avaliable.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

The most recent major market clear channel station sale I can think of was WOR/New York. WOR sold for $30 million, 4 years ago. Which is a lot of money, but also a lot less than what it would have sold for circa 2000.

 

[DrAkbar]

A historical question - did the slogan "Give us 22 minutes, and we'll give you the world" originate in the mid 60s at 101/WINS in NYC? IIRC, that all news station pre-dated KFWB by at least a few months, and both were owned by Westinghouse.

Talk about quarter hour maintenance! Westinghouse put the all news format on a number of their Ancient Modulation stations, including: WINS, KFWB, KYW & WMAQ. Worked well for them in New York & Philly; LA was a bumpy road due to a number of factors, and Chicago was a long term commitment undone by their purchase of CBS, which eliminated competition for WBBM and allowed 6~Seventy to become the Score - today's en fuego sports station in the Windy City. Dunno who came up with "you give us 22 minutes", but it was a brilliant move!

 

[landtuna]

'Tuna - The Bay Area Radio Museum has an air check of KGO-FM "104" from October 1967, when the format was automated pop. So I'm guessing that their rock format came at least a few months later, possibly in 1968.

I'm in the process of converting the ram files to mp3 so I can listen to your link but I think the date is inaccurate. I left San Rafael in July of 1968 and up to that time listened to KGO-FM (103.7) as an automated pop music source. I have submitted an aircheck to the museum of that time as well. I never heard KGO-FM use "KGO-FM 104". The entire time I was a listener they used the following: "FM (eff mmmmmm) 103point7 KGO Stereooooo San Franciscoooooo" I have an aircheck of it if you are interested.

EDIT - I discovered the museum aircheck is actually my original file but is attributed to someone else. The date is recorded on my reel-to-reel tape and the ID I submitted above can be heard on that file. The quality on the ram file is not nearly as good as on my mp3 original.

 

[davideduardo]

The most recent major market clear channel station sale I can think of was WOR/New York. WOR sold for $30 million, 4 years ago. Which is a lot of money, but also a lot less than what it would have sold for circa 2000.

Of course, WOR is quite directional and misses some of the market. KGO, while directional also, has the perfect NNW/SSE pattern to cover the market better than anyone.

 

[landtuna]

Originally Posted by LKellerIII:
A historical question - did the slogan "Give us 22 minutes, and we'll give you the world" originate in the mid 60s at 101/WINS in NYC? IIRC, that all news station pre-dated KFWB by at least a few months, and both were owned by Westinghouse."

I can't answer that question but I do remember the slogan KTKT used in the late 50's: "If you don't want it reported on KTKT - DON'T LET IT HAPPEN!"

At the time KTKT had about half the total listeners in Tucson (pop. approx. 100,000 at that time).

 

[davideduardo]

lf the total listeners in Tucson (pop. approx. 100,000 at that time).

That was rather typical performance in markets with a single Top 40 in those days.

See this: http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Ratings/Hooper-Roanoke.pdf

WROV, despite being a 250 watt Class IV station had a 55 share from noon onward, and a nice 41 share in mornings.

 

[landtuna]

That was rather typical performance in markets with a single Top 40 in those days.

In the last 5 or so years of the 50's there were at least 2 Top-40 AM's in Tucson and there may have been others whose playlists were very close to T-40. KAIR mimicked KTKT in many ways but never became as popular. Also, Tucson being a western town had a large following in Country & Western (KCUB, KHYT and KCNA come to mind although I don't think they were "pure" Country, more "MOR Country").

Through most of the 50's KTKT was a daytimer only so after sunset we usually listened to KOMA.

 

[davideduardo]

Thanks David, makes sense. A historical question - did the slogan "Give us 22 minutes, and we'll give you the world" originate in the mid 60s at 101/WINS in NYC? IIRC, that all news station pre-dated KFWB by at least a few months, and both were owned by Westinghouse.

I do not know the answer to that question. And now I am curious.

Westinghouse developed extreme skills in understanding ratings. In the 70's they developed a time buyers' slide rule to enter AQH and Cume for a station and find the number of spots that got a specific reach or the reach of a predetermined number of spots in a buy... a major pre-computer tool for buyers.

With that in mind, the 22 minute hook was likely intended to get at least two quarter hours of credit for each tune-in. And that meant that they were likely looking at Arbitron data, not Pulse or Hooper. And that would place the positioner somewhere in that late 60's as Arbitron gained acceptance.

I have looked for "and we'll give you the world" in Sponsor, Broadcasting and others and did not find any reference. Perhaps Michael H. can give us some guidance?

 

[davideduardo]

In the last 5 or so years of the 50's there were at least 2 Top-40 AM's in Tucson and there may have been others whose playlists were very close to T-40.

KTKT did so well because at the time Hooper only rated 7AM to 6 PM such as the sample I linked. So with KTKT off the air at night, the ratings were not impacted.

It was not until around '62 that KTKT added the night operation, and by then Pulse was showing 6 AM to Midnight data.

When Arbitron went into Tucson, which seems to be around 1973, KTKT still had a 22 share... but just three years later two top stations were FM (CHR and Beautiful) and the big AMs were KAIR and KCUB.

 

[Huff]

With that in mind, the 22 minute hook was likely intended to get at least two quarter hours of credit for each tune-in. And that meant that they were likely looking at Arbitron data, not Pulse or Hooper. And that would place the positioner somewhere in that late 60's as Arbitron gained acceptance.

I have looked for "and we'll give you the world" in Sponsor, Broadcasting and others and did not find any reference. Perhaps Michael H. can give us some guidance?

From the "Encyclopedia of Journalism":
"The Westinghouse or 'Group W' stations included all-news WINS (New York), KYW (Philadelphia), and KFWB (Los Angeles). They featured a 20-minute news 'clock' allowing listeners to hear the day's events in a listening period roughly equivalent to the average commute. The stations advertised with the slogan, 'You give us 22 minutes, we'll give you the world.'"

Unfortunately there is no reference to whether the slogan arrived at one station before the others, or if it was adopted group-wide. There is no mention of the slogan in any contemporary articles detailing WINS' flip to all-news.

The two quarter hour trick might have been a convenient side effect of the average commute time tactic.

 

[Huff]

When Arbitron went into Tucson, which seems to be around 1973, KTKT still had a 22 share... but just three years later two top stations were FM (CHR and Beautiful) and the big AMs were KAIR and KCUB.

ARB began yearly surveys in Tucson in 1969. KTKT led from '69 through '74 - except for a 1.4 loss to KAIR in 1970. KTKT averaged an 18 share in those years.

 

[davideduardo]

ARB began yearly surveys in Tucson in 1969. KTKT led from '69 through '74 - except for a 1.4 loss to KAIR in 1970. KTKT averaged an 18 share in those years.

Chalk that up to bad memory. '73 was the year I started consulting KTKT (in compliance, not programming... they had big lowest unit rate issues) and I had the recollection that '73 was the Arbitron year. KTKT was decimated by KRQQ in a very short time just like the KRUX-KRIZ battle was lost to KUPD FM in Phoenix once KUPD upgraded the FM.

 

[DrAkbar]

I have looked for "and we'll give you the world" in Sponsor, Broadcasting and others and did not find any reference. Perhaps Michael H. can give us some guidance?

Anyone know Scott Herman, COO of See BS Radio? He got his start @ 10~Ten WINS New York and programmed many of Group W's all news stations. He may know who came up with that gem.

 

[landtuna]

When Arbitron went into Tucson, which seems to be around 1973, KTKT still had a 22 share... but just three years later two top stations were FM (CHR and Beautiful) and the big AMs were KAIR and KCUB.

When I mentioned "half the listeners" it was in the late 1950's time period.

From about 1956 thru 1960 KTKT had a great lineup of DJ's. Chris Borden, Frank Kalil, Buck Herring among others but by 1961 all but Frank Kalil had moved on. The coming of FM coupled with the loss of so many great air staff was probably the reason for the decline. I returned to Tucson in 1968 and the station was still going strong but not the dominator it once was. Another return in 1977 and it was just another AM in a sea of static.

 

[semoochie]

The most recent major market clear channel station sale I can think of was WOR/New York. WOR sold for $30 million, 4 years ago. Which is a lot of money, but also a lot less than what it would have sold for circa 2000.

I was not really looking at a major group operator buying a flamethrower from another but rather anticipating a time that major group operators are no longer interested in acquiring AM properties or keeping what they already own. I have to think that time is not far off.

 

[Kniwt]

Here's a copy of an Associated Press report from 2005 containing the claim that WINS originated the term in 1972 (although other sources have said 1965) but that the specifics were lost to history:
http://www.yehoodi.com/comment/73943/1010wins-is-40

WINS-AM, celebrating its 40th anniversary as the nation's premier radio all-news station, asks its 2.5 million weekly listeners to give them 22 minutes. In return, as its exquisitely crafted slogan promises, "We'll give you the world."

... It wasn't until 1972 that the station developed it continuing concept: "You give us 22 minutes. We'll give you the world." Although perhaps the most recognizable pitch in all of radio, the source of catch-phrase is now unknown.

 

[DrAkbar]

I was not really looking at a major group operator buying a flamethrower from another but rather anticipating a time that major group operators are no longer interested in acquiring AM properties or keeping what they already own. I have to think that time is not far off.

You're right. And the irony of it all is a number of these 50kw flamethrowers are using 250 watt translators just to say they're on FM. Kinda like putting a Corvette badge on a Gremlin and thinking that solves your problems! At least K See BS has a real FM presence with 106~Nine.