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Channel 6 Audio on 87.7 FM after digital transition

H

HoustonListener

I know that analog Channel 6 audio can be received on 87.7 FM. There is no channel 6 here in Houston but I get the audio for Channel 6 in Temple/Waco and Beaumont on 87.7 when I am traveling to those areas of Texas. I know that the audio for the digital television stations cannot be picked up on an analog radio. However, I am wondering -- can the audio from Channel 6 digital transmission be picked up at 87.7 FM on a digital HD radio? or are the two systems incompatible?
Since I have no channel 6 in my area nor an HD radio, I can't test this out. Anyone out there with a Channel 6 on digital in their area and an HD radio that can test this out for me? There likely are not that many stations now on Channel 6 in digital, anyway. Just wondering...
 
I did some checking on dtvallocations.com and see only 9 stations will be broadcasting digitally on Channel 6 -- and my guess is that most of them probably are still on analog on Channel 6 now and will switch to digital 6 after transition, but I haven't verified that. The Channel 6 digital TV cities are
New Haven, CT
Schenectady, NY
Philadephia, PA
Pelham, GA
Wrens, GA
Birmingham, AL
Ensign, KS
Butte, MT
Casper, WY


Also, from dtvallocations.com
I see that there are only 2 stations on Channel 4 -- might the FCC be able to sway just two stations to swtich and free up this channel for another use?
Danville KY and Rock Island IL
Anyone in one of these cities where Channel 6 is already used for digital?
 
All HD Radio and HDTV have in common is the name - you will not be able to receive channel 6 digital TV audio on a HD Radio.

Low-power TV stations are not bound by the February 2009 deadline, and may continue to broadcast in analog (with a FM-radio-compatible audio signal) for some time. There will be a deadline for them too, but it will be much later than for full-power TV.

("low-power" is a different type of license, not necessarily a reference to the transmitter power)

There are also permits for 11 low-power digital stations on channel 4, and applications for three more. The several hundred low-power analog stations that already exist on channel 4 will be allowed to continue on that channel for some time.
 
Analog FM radios cannot pick up digital TV or HD Radio signals. There will be no more Channel 6 audio on 87.7 FM from full power stations after the transition.

Low-power stations are not affected (yet), so those two LPTV Channel 6 stations in Anchorage and New York that are used as radio stations will not be affected (as long as they put out a video carrier with the audio). Whenever LPTV stations have to shut out analog, those two will be gone.
 
jal41 said:
Analog FM radios cannot pick up digital TV or HD Radio signals. There will be no more Channel 6 audio on 87.7 FM from full power stations after the transition.
Click to expand...

... except in San Diego, where XETV/Fox 6 is licensed to Mexico.
 
I noticed that in some cities set to lose Ch. 6 analog, the FCC has started accepting applications for some of the adjacent non-commercial frequencies. I know that southeastern Wisconsin has a whole bunch of applicants for several of them.

I assume that this is because WITI (Ch. 6) in Milwaukee was likely to cause a bit of interference with these potential signals. They are moving to DTV Ch. 33 next year.

Incidently, the often advertise the fact that their audio can be picked up on 87.7, for news and sports. I'll miss listening to football games there after next fall (they're a FOX affiliate).
 
are the border stations in Mexico (such as near San Diego and in the Rio Grande Valley in Texas) that target the US going to keep broadcasting in analog -- after all they won't be required to give up their analog signal since they are not American stations.. does that give them an advantage in the marketplace, since they will still be received on the old analog TVs without a converter...or will the fact that everyone will be converting mean that they have no advantage (since most people won't be happy with a TV just getting one station (or the one or two American targeted stations along with the Mexican targeted stations).
 
What about a station like XETV-TV (FOX) channel 6 in the San Diego market? Even though the station is licensed to Mexico, will it still being going to digital next winter?
 
XETV San Diego

I just looked at XETV's web site (www.fox6.com)and it says the following:

Is channel 6 shutting down in February 2009?

No. Because we have a Mexican license, we don't have to shutdown the analog service until many years later. We still believe you will prefer our digital service better, so we recommend purchasing a converter or HDTV in order to enjoy the best TV picture.

XETV is broadcasting digitally on Channel 23 now.

I wonder when they will shut down their analog broadcasts...when they keep getting the power bills and have to write that check every month they will be thinking about pulling the plug.

XETV's web site also touts the ability for people to receive the audio on 87.7 fm. Is that reason enough to keep the analog signal on?
 
That last part also makes no sense, since the analog audio would be several seconds ahead of what you'd see on the TV, assuming you're watching a digital signal.

This also brings up a good question: Is XETV-DT licensed to Mexico as well?
 
MW_FM_DT_DXer said:
Yes. XETV-DT is licenced to Tijuana, just like XETV.
Click to expand...

Same is true for Canadian analog TV stations. They aren't required to go all digital until 2011. So Channel 6 stations like CHEK-TV Victoria will also be heard on 87.75 MHz there and south of the border until then too...

When I living was in Spokane, I used to love being able to drive around town late and listen to Jay Leno off KHQ-TV....
 
Re: XETV San Diego

HoustonListener said:
I just looked at XETV's web site (www.fox6.com)and it says the following:

Is channel 6 shutting down in February 2009?

No. Because we have a Mexican license, we don't have to shutdown the analog service until many years later. We still believe you will prefer our digital service better, so we recommend purchasing a converter or HDTV in order to enjoy the best TV picture.

XETV is broadcasting digitally on Channel 23 now.

I wonder when they will shut down their analog broadcasts...when they keep getting the power bills and have to write that check every month they will be thinking about pulling the plug.

XETV's web site also touts the ability for people to receive the audio on 87.7 fm. Is that reason enough to keep the analog signal on?
Click to expand...

There is a reason for this. In Mexico, the transition calls for 6 triannual periods (2004, 2007, 2010, 2013, 2016 and 2019) just three days after they adopted the ATSC system. The analog signal for all TV stations in Mexico will be cut off no later than January 1, 2022. The analog signal can be turned off in a region once COFETEL determines that there is a high enough presence of digital TVs, defined as:

Digital Presence = At least 20% of what is reached by the analog signal
Digital Replication = At least 90% of what is reached by analog signal

Currently the Mexican stations are in Phase 2 of their transition, which requires digital presence of at least 2 commercial signals in cities with 1.5 million people or more.
 
HoustonListener said:
I know that the audio for the digital television stations cannot be picked up on an analog radio. However, I am wondering -- can the audio from Channel 6 digital transmission be picked up at 87.7 FM on a digital HD radio? or are the two systems incompatible?
Click to expand...

HD Radio which by the way does not stand for "high def," (rant, I wonder why they allowed such a misleading name LOL) is COFDM. COFDM is used for TV in some countries but not the US. Here we use 8VSB for our digital TV.
 
Thank you Mark for that technical answer that most completely explains why we won't be able to hear Channel 6 on our FM radios anymore after the digital transition. That is the answer I was looking for.
 
jal41 said:
Analog FM radios cannot pick up digital TV or HD Radio signals. There will be no more Channel 6 audio on 87.7 FM from full power stations after the transition.

Low-power stations are not affected (yet), so those two LPTV Channel 6 stations in Anchorage and New York that are used as radio stations will not be affected (as long as they put out a video carrier with the audio). Whenever LPTV stations have to shut out analog, those two will be gone.
Click to expand...

Let's not forget "Guadalupe Radio" (a Spanish-language religious station on KSFV-LP Channel 6) licensed to the San Fernando Valley in the Los Angeles, CA, market.
 
FightingIrish said:
I noticed that in some cities set to lose Ch. 6 analog, the FCC has started accepting applications for some of the adjacent non-commercial frequencies. I know that southeastern Wisconsin has a whole bunch of applicants for several of them.
Click to expand...

The applications have been filed. I'm not thinking the FCC is going to accept them.

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2008/db0321/DA-08-626A1.txt details a case where an existing non-commercial FM station (KFLO 89.1 in Louisiana) sought to double their power and add horizontal polarization. They'd been limited by proximity to KTAL-TV channel 6. KTAL's permanent DTV facility will be on channel 15 - channel 6 will not be used in the area post-Transition. KFLO promised that if the new facilities were granted, they would not implement them until after next February, after KTAL ceased analog operations. And they presented a letter from KTAL consenting to the arrangement.

The FCC dismissed the application. Among other things, the Commission stated that granting KFLO's application would be unfair to other potential FM applicants in the area who were holding off on filing because their applications couldn't comply with the rules *as they stand now*.

A fair number of technically-defective applications were filed in that batch. The Milwaukee Symphony's application, for example, called for 70 kilowatts - the maximum limit for FM stations south of Oshkosh is 50 kilowatts. The Symphony was allowed to amend their application to fix the problem, but they did have to make a TV-6 interference showing. (I note their application calls for a directional antenna and vertical polarization only. I'm downloading it as I type but am broadband-challenged so it may take an hour or so.....) I don't recall if any of the other Milwaukee-area apps have been dismissed yet, but quite a few have been dismissed elsewhere.
 
various! said:
are the border stations in Mexico (such as near San Diego and in the Rio Grande Valley in Texas) that target the US going to keep broadcasting in analog -- after all they won't be required to give up their analog signal since they are not American stations..
Click to expand...

Canadian and Mexican stations have a later deadline. They will be allowed to remain operating in analog for at least a few years after the U.S. analogs shut down.

does that give them an advantage in the marketplace, since they will still be received on the old analog TVs without a converter...or will the fact that everyone will be converting mean that they have no advantage (since most people won't be happy with a TV just getting one station (or the one or two American targeted stations along with the Mexican targeted stations).
Click to expand...

My gut feeling is that you're right, that they will have no advantage since nobody on the U.S. side is going to be happy with getting only a subset of the available channels. Especially among the English-speaking audience, which is going to get two also-ran networks in San Diego - and *nothing* in their language anywhere else.

That said, legislators representing some border districts have suggested a delay in analog shutdown for stations near the Mexican border, for just this reason.

That last part also makes no sense, since the analog audio would be several seconds ahead of what you'd see on the TV, assuming you're watching a digital signal.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone's talking about listening to the analog audio while watching the digital video. They're talking about listening to the analog audio in the car, where they can't be watching anything.

This also brings up a good question: Is XETV-DT licensed to Mexico as well?
Click to expand...

I believe XETV-DT was the first DTV station in Mexico. (there may have been some demo stations in Mexico City before that) It's been around for quite awhile.
 
Not sure why it doesn't make sense. The analog transmission would result in what you're hearing at 88.7FM, not anything digital as far as what leaves the station transmitter. It would be off by seconds to "some", but only because they are watching digital transmissions which would not be in synch with what would be leaving the analog transmitter if they happened to be monitoring the two sources simulataneously. However, it would still be in synch with the program audio and video of the analog channel, as that's the whole reason the 88.7 FM broadcast is there to begin with. (That's where the audio portion of the analog VHF television channel 6 originates from.)

edit: Sorry, I realize afterwards now that I replied inbetween many posts to an earlier one.
 
Just a random thought; if one has a small HH TV that will be essentially "useless" after the 2/28/09 transition, one can sell it for a few $$'s to our friends N or S of the border on e-Bay.
Maybe one can realize enough $$'s to buy a good 6 pack of imported beer and further contribute to our U.S. balance of trade defecit.
Burp!
 
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