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Channel Separation Rules for Digital TV

During analog days, you couldn't have two TV stations in the same market only one channel apart. (Exceptions were you could have Channel 4 and 5 or Channel 6 and 7 in the same market, since the 5 and 6 channels were actually further apart from the other channels.)

But with digital TV, you can have adjacent channels in the same market. In Boston, CBS WBZ-TV is on Channel 30 and Fox WFXT is 31. PBS WGBH-TV is Channel 19 and ABC WCVB is Channel 20. Is there no risk of one channel bleeding into another?

Also, did I read someplace where two channels can be adjacent to each other in the same city, but you can't do that if they're something like 50 miles from each other? Then one channel will overwhelm the other?

And because there are fewer usable channels today than in the past, the FCC has assigned the same channel to stations within 200 miles from each other? In analog days, VHF channels would have to be double that distance from each other unless they were grandfathered. (Newark and Albany both had Channel 13s, 160 miles apart, but I think they were assigned before the FCC set up minimum separation rules.)

What's the highest and lowest channel available now? Analog TVs used to go up to Channel 68, and there were even Channel 70-somethings early in the days of UHF. And there are few channel assignments below Channel 14 because VHF digital signals don't travel very far. Some markets have a couple of VHF stations, some have none.
 
Presently for digital TV, the highest UHF channel which can be used is 51. Hartford/New Haven sees WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8 of New Haven using VHF channel 10 for digital (transmitting from Hamden, CT). WEDN-TV (PBS) channel 53 of Norwich uses VHF channel 9 (transmitting from Bozrah, CT).
 
Gregg said:
But with digital TV, you can have adjacent channels in the same market. In Boston, CBS WBZ-TV is on Channel 30 and Fox WFXT is 31. PBS WGBH-TV is Channel 19 and ABC WCVB is Channel 20. Is there no risk of one channel bleeding into another?
[
heck in Minneapolis we have
31 Daystar
32 CBS (maps to 4)
33 3ABN
34 PBS (maps to 2)
35 ABC (maps to 5)

Also, did I read someplace where two channels can be adjacent to each other in the same city, but you can't do that if they're something like 50 miles from each other? Then one channel will overwhelm the other?
correct

What's the highest and lowest channel available now? Analog TVs used to go up to Channel 68, and there were even Channel 70-somethings early in the days of UHF. And there are few channel assignments below Channel 14 because VHF digital signals don't travel very far. Some markets have a couple of VHF stations, some have none.

51 is highest

The VHF issue is easy to comment on...but I'll go back to a news blog after the conversion
But it turns out that flawed engineering data at the FCC has caused a major fiasco with stations that are now using VHF channels 2 to 13 for digital. Most visible examples include channel 13 in Baltimore, which was doing fine with its analog VHF channel, and equally well if not even better with their temporary UHF digital frequency. Once they shut off analog on VHF, turned off the temporary UHF digital signal, and then turned on VHF digital, a nasty surprise was found. As an outsider, all I can see is that highly visible engineering people must have been sleeping through much of their elementary school mathematics classes, and missed the parts on multiplication and division. Let's see if the rest of you can pass this test: If a UHF TV station was allowed to transmit 5 million watts video power in analog, and then given permission to use 1 million watts for digital, that would mean that the digital signal is using 20% of the power of previous analog signal. Suppose that a VHF station on channel 13 was previously transmitting at the maximum 316 Kw allowed for analog (just as UHF channels were allowed 5000 Kw on analog), would it not make a little bit of sense that the digital allotment should be somewhere near 20% of the previous analog power output? That number would be just over 60 Kw in most circumstances. Why were VHF channels given power outputs typically between 10 and 30 Kw? Did nobody realize that you would get extremely reduced coverage at a fraction of the power? And there was no real-world testing situation in many cases to see if digital VHF performance was adequate at proposed power levels?? Somewhere in the explanation should include the word "idiot", in my humble opinion. At least the FCC is now acting at previously unheard of speed to respond to broadcasters that are struggling with the power levels authorized, and giving them permission to crank up the power.

now alot of those stations have cranked up their power....the ones on VHF Hi (7-13)
VHF Low there was a lot of interference on it yet some stations moved back to that market when the conversion happened. While alot were in small markets, Philly's channel 6 and both chanenls 5's in Tennessee (Memphis and Nashville) and 5 in Bristol, VA (WCYB) all went there too. Now Nashvilles 5 just added a UHF translator on 25 and WCYB has a CP for a translator on 29.

Basically UHF has more power allotment but alot of the VHF Hi stations went back to their analog number (again here in Mpls Fox 9 and NBC 11 did)
 
Gregg said:
What's the highest and lowest channel available now? Analog TVs used to go up to Channel 68, and there were even Channel 70-somethings early in the days of UHF. And there are few channel assignments below Channel 14 because VHF digital signals don't travel very far. Some markets have a couple of VHF stations, some have none.

I will be corrected if I am wrong but from what I remember about frequency propagation the lower the frequency the longer ground wave is generated. That means that VHF signals, analog or digital, travel further on the ground than do UHF signals. Whether they each carry a useful digital stream is a separate topic and one that I am not knowledgeable about. I would suspect that, all other things being equal, an analog and digital stream on equally powerful carriers would be equally receivable at given points in their respective contours although it seems in actual practice that digital craps out first (or perhaps the more accurate term is 'absolutely').

Your statement that VHF stations suffered a significant power reduction during the DTV conversion seems to be true as all the VHF signals in my town have suffered since then. I do not know if their power levels have been increased but do know that at least two were planned.
 
Gregg said:
Also, did I read someplace where two channels can be adjacent to each other in the same city, but you can't do that if they're something like 50 miles from each other? Then one channel will overwhelm the other?

The current separation rules are something to the effect of allowing adjacent channels within 25 miles of each other. After that, they have to follow whatever spacing rules the FCC has set for their respective band.

And because there are fewer usable channels today than in the past, the FCC has assigned the same channel to stations within 200 miles from each other?

The spacing rules may have changed, though I don't know exactly what they are beyond the 25 mile rule for adjacents. While there are recorded instances of digital channels skipping, the range is much more predictable. So, the FCC should have a little more room for error. However, I do know KOTV in Tulsa was hoping to get DT-19 for its allotment but was shot down and eventually given DT-45 because of DT-19's in Springfield, MO and Wichita, both of which are more than 150 miles from the KOTV transmitter.

What's the highest and lowest channel available now? Analog TVs used to go up to Channel 68, and there were even Channel 70-somethings early in the days of UHF. And there are few channel assignments below Channel 14 because VHF digital signals don't travel very far. Some markets have a couple of VHF stations, some have none.

The digital spectrum is 2-51, though the FCC is apparently not allowing moves to or upgrades for 51.

unclehonkey said:
Now Nashvilles 5 just added a UHF translator on 25 and WCYB has a CP for a translator on 29.

I don't know about 'CYB, but WTVF isn't getting a translator on 25. It's moving its full-power signal there! It will also apparently be keeping DT-5 as a translator at least for the short-term. I've heard they've also applied to run the DT-5 translator at higher power. WMC-TV has asked the FCC to reserve DT-17 for its signal, but it hasn't applied for facilities there yet.

landtuna said:
I will be corrected if I am wrong but from what I remember about frequency propagation the lower the frequency the longer ground wave is generated.

I'm not an expert on this field either, but I do know VHF stations have longer wavelengths than the UHF stations. This is why VHF stations have a larger antenna. If you wanted an antenna optimized for channel 2, it would have to be around 9 feet long.
 
Kent said:
I don't know about 'CYB, but WTVF isn't getting a translator on 25. It's moving its full-power signal there! It will also apparently be keeping DT-5 as a translator at least for the short-term. I've heard they've also applied to run the DT-5 translator at higher power. WMC-TV has asked the FCC to reserve DT-17 for its signal, but it hasn't applied for facilities there yet.

you're right. I forgot that DT5 in Nashville will be a translator

WCYB does have a construction permit for 29 for Bristol...and a permit for 21 in Kingsport
http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WCYB-TV

The app for 28 has been thrown out as the other VHF station in the market (CBS11 in Johnson City) also had an app for 28.
http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=189440
 
landtuna said:
Gregg said:
What's the highest and lowest channel available now? Analog TVs used to go up to Channel 68, and there were even Channel 70-somethings early in the days of UHF. And there are few channel assignments below Channel 14 because VHF digital signals don't travel very far. Some markets have a couple of VHF stations, some have none.

I will be corrected if I am wrong but from what I remember about frequency propagation the lower the frequency the longer ground wave is generated. That means that VHF signals, analog or digital, travel further on the ground than do UHF signals. Whether they each carry a useful digital stream is a separate topic and one that I am not knowledgeable about. I would suspect that, all other things being equal, an analog and digital stream on equally powerful carriers would be equally receivable at given points in their respective contours although it seems in actual practice that digital craps out first (or perhaps the more accurate term is 'absolutely').

Your statement that VHF stations suffered a significant power reduction during the DTV conversion seems to be true as all the VHF signals in my town have suffered since then. I do not know if their power levels have been increased but do know that at least two were planned.

Analog degrades gracefully, if the signal weakens a bit, the picture gets a little snowy, but you can still see it and you can still hear the audio.

Digital's pretty much all or nothing. Either the signal is strong enough at a given moment, and the data it's carrying gets through and processed, or it's not strong enough, and "no data for you".

Just like with sub-woofers and supertweeters, a lower frequency will wrap around stuff and keep going where a higher frequency gets blocked.

A pine tree that an old VHF-Low signal went through like a hot knife through butter looked like a brick wall to a UHF signal.
 
unclehonkey said:
As an outsider, all I can see is that highly visible engineering people must have been sleeping through much of their elementary school mathematics classes, and missed the parts on multiplication and division. Let's see if the rest of you can pass this test: If a UHF TV station was allowed to transmit 5 million watts video power in analog, and then given permission to use 1 million watts for digital, that would mean that the digital signal is using 20% of the power of previous analog signal.

Problem is, analog watts & digital watts are different.

(yes, that statement deserves an explanation :) )

TV, both analog and digital, uses amplitude modulation. That means the transmitted power is continuously changing. You might say WJZ-TV is running 316,000 watts of analog power, but in practice most of the time, WJZ-TV's analog power is different. Similarly, you might say WJZ-TV is running 33,800 watts of digital power, but in practice most of the time WJZ-TV's digital power is different.

In analog, you could predict when the next power peak was going to come along. The synchronizing pulses were transmitted with the maximum available power, and they were transmitted at a well-regulated interval. Analog power was measured during these peaks. So if you say WJZ-TV is running 316,000 watts of analog power, you mean that 316,000 watts is the most power WJZ-TV will ever transmit. Most of the time, the transmitted power is quite a bit less. (the brighter the picture, the less power)

In digital, you still have peaks of power -- but you can't predict when they are going to happen. So digital power is *average* power -- the transmitted power averaged over some amount of time. (a few seconds IIRC) When you say WJZ-TV is running 33,800 watts of digital power, in fact their power is less than that half of the time -- but it's also *more* than 33,800 watts about half the time.

The conversion factor is in the ballpark of 2:1. WJZ-TV's analog power, measured using the digital method (averaged over time), was roughly 150,000 watts; WJZ-TV's digital power, measured using the analog method (at power peaks) is roughly 70,000 watts.

Now, there is still a difference - we're comparing 150,000 average analog watts vs. 34,000 average digital watts, or 316,000 peak analog watts vs. 70,000 peak digital watts. But the difference isn't as dramatic as it may appear.

IMHO a significant problem is that of poor antennas. The economic downturn coincided with the digital conversion; we've seen quite a few viewers switch from cable/satellite to OTA reception. These are folks who haven't had a TV antenna for years. They go out to buy an antenna so they can stop paying cable bills -- and what do they find at Radio Shack/Wal-Mart/Target/Best Buy? Well, whatever they find, it isn't designed to work at VHF. Not even if the box says it is. (the FCC tested a bunch of antennas last year. They found all of them were FAR inferior at VHF compared to UHF. They didn't even bother testing them on low-VHF.)

I wouldn't be too surprised if 2nd-harmonic interference from FM stations is also part of the problem. In many markets, stations are using high-VHF channels that weren't used in the analog era.

_________________________________________________

Yes, WTVF moved from RF-5 to RF-25 over the weekend. They have already relicensed RF-5 as a Digital Replacement Translator, at reduced power of 3kw. (it was operating at 22kw when it was their main transmitter) They have requested a waiver to allow them to operate RF-5 at the full 22kw. The request states that they need RF-5 to reach rural audiences that RF-25 won't reach. (I have heard from rural viewers who say WTVF is the only station they can get, including one who was watching in Cookeville with indoor rabbit ears. Cookeville is 75 miles away!)

Of course, our Cookeville example notwithstanding, rural viewers have always needed a "real" outdoor antenna. Analog didn't work without it, and digital doesn't either. The move to 25 is, IMHO, WTVF's recognition that urban viewers near the station are either unwilling or unable to install a proper antenna.

_________________________________________________

To jump back on-topic :) :

For technical changes to existing stations, there's a "D/U" thing. Interference is assumed to exist if the new facilities are less than 28dB weaker than those of an existing station on the lower adjacent channel. (26dB if the existing station is on the *upper* adjacent channel) As I read it, you cannot cause interference to more than 2% of the homes in the existing station's coverage area that don't already receive interference; and you cannot cause any interference if it would result in more than 10% of the existing station's audience receiving interference.

The "donut hole" thing is for new DTV channel allotments.

- For a VHF channel in Zone I (the Northeast): A new allotment must be at least 110km from an existing station on the adjacent channel, *OR* within 20km of that station.
- For a VHF channel elsewhere: A new allotment must be at least 110km from an existing station on the adjacent channel, *OR* within 23km of that station.
- For a UHF channel anywhere: A new allotment must be at least 110km from an existing station on the adjacent channel, *OR* within 24km of that station.

The FCC isn't accepting petitions for new DTV channel allotments, and with the incentive auctions & channel refarming, I think it's very likely they never will. So these figures are probably purely academic.


Please contact an allocations engineer before you risk any money on the basis of anything above!
 
w9wi said:
As I read it, you cannot cause interference to more than 2% of the homes in the existing station's coverage area that don't already receive interference; and you cannot cause any interference if it would result in more than 10% of the existing station's audience receiving interference.

The FCC tightened up the interference rules a while ago. It's now 0.5% new interference, with masked interference not counting, as far as I know.

- Trip
 
"UHF channels went up to 83 until 1983, then the channels 70-83 were used for cellular phones."

And there was some pretty fun monitoring to be had on those channels for quite a few years.......
 
w9wi said:
TV, both analog and digital, uses amplitude modulation.

Quite right. In both analog days and now in digital, the video is transmitted by way of ancient...OOPS!...I mean Amplitude Modulation. The audio portion is transmitted in FM.

When the conversion to digital took place, I was left wondering why they stuck with AM for the video instead of switching to FM.

Perhaps one of the Engineering types out there could explain why AM is still used for television.
 
w9wi said:
For technical changes to existing stations, there's a "D/U" thing. Interference is assumed to exist if the new facilities are less than 28dB weaker than those of an existing station on the lower adjacent channel. (26dB if the existing station is on the *upper* adjacent channel)

Well, I blew this one :) You cause interference to the lower adjacent channel if your signal is more than 28dB *stronger* than the lower-adjacent station. (or more than 26dB stronger than the upper-adjacent station)

Which is a good reason for:

Please contact an allocations engineer before you risk any money on the basis of anything above!
 
KyDXIn said:
UHF channels went up to Channel 83 until 1983. Then the channels 70-83 were used for mobile phones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_high_frequency

Check out the section on "United States".

You mean my local cell tower operates on one of the ex-UHF channels? :eek:

Also, are the abandoned analog frequencies actually being put to use for emergency radio frequencies 3 years later, as I remember reading during the run up to the big shutdown of TV as we knew it, or was that just govt. balderdash? Where can I find out if this is being done in my locality?

ixnay
 
The worst case is the overcrowding of Channel 13 in and around Arkansas. Arkansas Educational Television Network (AETN)operates *two* RF13 transmitters: KETG 13 (9-n) Arkadelphia and KEMV 13 (6-n) Mountain View (North Central AR). The later is shoehorned with WHBQ-TV Memphis also operating on RF13 post transistion. Needless to say, KETG in the analog era was one of my distant stations and always seen but only sporadically decodes (since it has to also protect Monroe LA PBS station KLTM RF13 (13-n). Thankfully KOAM Pittsburg KS which also uses RF13 post-transition is too close to the NW AR transmitter for AETN for KAFT to reuse their old analog channel, 13, for DTV (KAFT uses RF 9 instead).
 
rgseark2009 said:
Thankfully KOAM Pittsburg KS which also uses RF13 post-transition is too close to the NW AR transmitter for AETN for KAFT to reuse their old analog channel, 13, for DTV (KAFT uses RF 9 instead).

KOAM went back to DT-7 after the transition. Its half-sister station, KFJX, uses DT-13, though, as it wasn't given a transitional channel because it was licensed after the deadline for transitional channels had passed.
 
Part of the problem with DTV on VHF stems from the way homes are constructed. Homes made of metal, stucco or concrete (with metal screen inside) or using foil backed insulation in the exterior walls can act as a Faraday cage making reception of VHF with indoor antennas very difficult. Then we have the antennas themselves which can introduce a 10 to 20 db loss on the VHF band.

Another problem comes from the stations themselves. During the DTV transition many stations on VHF opted for a huge power increase while keeping their antenna polarization either horizontal or vertical. Tests show that DTV VHF works best with a circular polarization pattern. In fact, a station stands a better chance being received indoors with less power and a CP pattern than more power and either a H or V pattern.
 
Carmine5 said:
Another problem comes from the stations themselves. During the DTV transition many stations on VHF opted for a huge power increase while keeping their antenna polarization either horizontal or vertical. Tests show that DTV VHF works best with a circular polarization pattern. In fact, a station stands a better chance being received indoors with less power and a CP pattern than more power and either a H or V pattern.

Vertical (only) polarization was not allowed for analog TV, and unless something happened I didn't run into, it's not permitted for digital either.

But your point is valid. Circular polarization made a BIG difference in analog and it would do the same in digital if more stations used it...
 
w9wi said:
Carmine5 said:
Another problem comes from the stations themselves. During the DTV transition many stations on VHF opted for a huge power increase while keeping their antenna polarization either horizontal or vertical. Tests show that DTV VHF works best with a circular polarization pattern. In fact, a station stands a better chance being received indoors with less power and a CP pattern than more power and either a H or V pattern.

Vertical (only) polarization was not allowed for analog TV, and unless something happened I didn't run into, it's not permitted for digital either.

But your point is valid. Circular polarization made a BIG difference in analog and it would do the same in digital if more stations used it...

I was thinking of elliptical polarization which uses a combination of H and V. Some stations had adopted that method to improve reception.
 
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