Channels identified by number

[harrisburgpatv]

Once we have the analog to digital conversion next year, I know some channels will move their digital channel to where the analog one was, and some will permanently set up shop where their digital channel already is.

I wonder, however, if when the "switchover" arrives, will stations cease to identify themselves with their channel number, and be identified only with their call letters? Nexstar's WYOU and WBRE (CBS and NBC in Scranton/WB PA, respectively) already do this, and about a month ago, WTAJ in Altoona (CBS, also Nexstar) started identifying themselves as such.

 

[dhett]

That will remain up to each individual station, as it does now, as it is just branding. Some stations brand by their over-the-air channel, others by the cable channel of the most dominant system, still others by call letters alone. The first two seem to be the most common, and some use both the over-the-air channel and cable channel together. KNSD San Diego brands as 7/39 - 39 is the actual over-the-air analog channel - while others brand as "Channel X, cable Y".

Legal identification is another issue. Digital stations must identify by their virtual channel number, which is the former analog channel as their major channel number, and the subchannel. This is regardless of what channel on which the station is actually broadcasting. So while WBRE and WYOU brand by their call letters alone, their legal ID, to be shown near the top of the hour, is WBRE 28.1 Wilkes-Barre and WYOU 22.1 Scranton, even though they actually broadcast on channels 11 and 13, respectively.

 

[jal41]

I wonder if any stations (particularly those with channel numbers 30+) will try to petition the FCC for lower virtual channels after the DTV transition is complete.

In Atlanta, CW station (and CBS O&O) WUPA just went back to being called "CW 69", despite the fact that they have an exemption from the FCC regarding virtual channels (they use their DTV physical channel number of 43 as their virtual channel), as well as the highest channel number. They had been using "CW Atlanta" and "UPN Atlanta" for the past few years. Same a few years ago with CBS affilate WGCL (Which had been known as "Clear TV" and "CBS Atlanta" before readopting "CBS 46").

Then there is the issue of cable, where in most areas the local channels are grouped together from 2-22 (Not to mention the VHF's on many cable systems are one-off from their OTA postions. For example, WSB-TV Channel 2 in Atlanta is on cable channel 3 on most of the Comcast systems). And the channel position changes from one system to another in the same market. Both satellite providers use the analog OTA position regardless of how the station is named.

Hopefully, all-digital cable systems will match the OTA postion number (the virtual OTA channel number) in regards to local channels to make things easier. OTA Channel 2 on cable channel 2, channel 46 on cable channel 46, etc.

 

[w9wi]

Legal identification is another issue. Digital stations must identify by their virtual channel number, which is the former analog channel as their major channel number, and the subchannel. This is regardless of what channel on which the station is actually broadcasting. So while WBRE and WYOU brand by their call letters alone, their legal ID, to be shown near the top of the hour, is WBRE 28.1 Wilkes-Barre and WYOU 22.1 Scranton, even though they actually broadcast on channels 11 and 13, respectively.

Stations aren't required to use their channel in their legal ID at all. "WBRE-TV Wilkes-Barre" is adequate.

The channel number is a permissible insertion - you can use it if you want but you don't have to. ("WBRE-TV 28 Wilkes-Barre" would be legal. )

I would be 99.9% certain the virtual channel is the permissible insertion for DTV. There's a chance the FCC didn't bother to change this clause in which case arguably it would be legal to use the RF channel - but I can't imagine any station would.

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I wonder if any stations (particularly those with channel numbers 30+) will try to petition the FCC for lower virtual channels after the DTV transition is complete.

I don't think the FCC would want to step into that mess...

DTV will crash and burn if there are two stations with overlapping coverage with the same major channel number. Most DTV receivers will only be able to receive one of the two. (probably the one with the higher RF channel, as it will be the one that will "scan in" last) (DXers have learned there *are* a few DTVs that will scan in both stations)

So, there has to be some authority to assign virtual channels and ensure they're unique among stations with overlapping coverage. Either that authority is the FCC, or the FCC has to go through a process to assign the authority to someone else.

Then there is the issue of cable, where in most areas the local channels are grouped together from 2-22

Cable does have the ability to replace the PSIP data. WGCL-DT could use major channel 46 OTA, while Comcast could remap it to major channel 19, or major channel 6, or wherever else they wanted to put it. And because Comcast controls all the remapping on their own system, they are the authority that prevents duplication.

There will no longer be a technical reason for Comcast to carry WSB on cable (RF) channel 3. There won't be any RF OTA signal on channel 2 to interfere with the cable signal on RF 2. Now, Comcast may choose to leave WSB on 3 to avoid confusing their subscribers, but there will be no engineering reason to leave them on 3.

 

[dhett]

Legal identification is another issue. Digital stations must identify by their virtual channel number, which is the former analog channel as their major channel number, and the subchannel. This is regardless of what channel on which the station is actually broadcasting. So while WBRE and WYOU brand by their call letters alone, their legal ID, to be shown near the top of the hour, is WBRE 28.1 Wilkes-Barre and WYOU 22.1 Scranton, even though they actually broadcast on channels 11 and 13, respectively.

Stations aren't required to use their channel in their legal ID at all. "WBRE-TV Wilkes-Barre" is adequate.

The channel number is a permissible insertion - you can use it if you want but you don't have to. ("WBRE-TV 28 Wilkes-Barre" would be legal. )

I would be 99.9% certain the virtual channel is the permissible insertion for DTV. There's a chance the FCC didn't bother to change this clause in which case arguably it would be legal to use the RF channel - but I can't imagine any station would.

Once again, I stand corrected. The channel number is optional, however, if used, it must be the major channel number, per FCC 73.1201. The major channel number is defined differently, based on whether the station had an existing NTSC license or not. For those having a pre-existing analog license, the DTV major channel number is defined as the RF frequency specified in the analog license. For those not having a pre-existing analog license, the DTV major channel number is the digital station's RF frequency. See complete rules at the ATSC A/65C Standard.

 

[KML0224]

So in other words, WFSB-TV/DT (CBS) of Hartford can still call themselves channel 3 after the switchover, even though they're using UHF channel 33 for their digital. Like Atlanta, they're moved one over due to the 100,000 watt VHF analog channel 3 signal being so close (Avon Mountain to the west of Hartford). Comcast of New Britain/Hartford and COX in Newington/Manchester carry WFSB on cable channel 2. Same thing 20 years ago in New Britain/Hartford.

P.S. WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8 of New Haven is on cable channel 8, as Madmere Mountain of Hamden is far enough away to where there's no such problem here in southern Hartford County (WTNH-DT is channel 10).

 

[w9wi]

So in other words, WFSB-TV/DT (CBS) of Hartford can still call themselves channel 3 after the switchover, even though they're using UHF channel 33 for their digital. Like Atlanta, they're moved one over due to the 100,000 watt VHF analog channel 3 signal being so close (Avon Mountain to the west of Hartford). Comcast of New Britain/Hartford and COX in Newington/Manchester carry WFSB on cable channel 2. Same thing 20 years ago in New Britain/Hartford.

Yes. In fact, if they use a channel number in the legal ID, they must call themselves channel 3. (and they must call themselves channel 3 in the PSIP data they broadcast.)

(the easy out in the first case is to put the channel number after (or before) the legal ID. "Channel 2, WFSB-DT, Hartford" is fine; "WFSB-DT, Channel 2, Hartford" isn't...)

P.S. WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8 of New Haven is on cable channel 8, as Madmere Mountain of Hamden is far enough away to where there's no such problem here in southern Hartford County (WTNH-DT is channel 10).

Our lives here in Nashville would be a lot easier if they'd do that. Four VHF stations, all carried on their air channels. Plenty of interference trouble.

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(Dave, thanks for looking that up in the FCC regs. I was being too lazy!)

 

[KML0224]

WFSB-TV is on analog cable channel 2 here in New Britain and Hartford on Comcast, as well as COX in Newington and Manchester. They're still very much around with their 100,000 watt VHF channel 3 analog signal. Analog channel 2 can be found in New York City and Boston.

 

[ct2874]

What about stations that do not verbally ID themselves with either? Such as WFTS ch. 28 and WTTA ch. 38, who refer to themselves as "Your ABC Action News Station" and "My TV Tampa Bay" respectively?

 

[Ultimajock]

...in the three years (2004-07) I lived in La Crosse, Wisconsin, I never saw KTTC/10 Rochester use anything but their call letters. No "Channel 10" except in a single no0stalgia promo they ran circa New Years '05...

 

[dhett]

What about stations that do not verbally ID themselves with either? Such as WFTS ch. 28 and WTTA ch. 38, who refer to themselves as "Your ABC Action News Station" and "My TV Tampa Bay" respectively?

Again, you're referring to station branding, not legal station identification. A station can call itself whatever it wishes - that's its brand. Here in Phoenix, KASW channel 61 is the local CW affiliate and is carried by the major cable providers on channel 6. When the station first came on the air in the mid-90s, it was a WB affiliate, and branded itself as WB 61. Later, that morphed into WB 6/61, then WB 6, and finally CW 6, which is how it brands itself today. I'm not sure the average Joe even knows that its call letters are KASW - it's never used then.

However, in legal top-of-hour IDs, at the very minimum, it must either visually or aurally identify itself as KASW Phoenix, which I believe is all it uses. If it used a channel number between the call letters and city of license, it would have to be 61, which is its analog RF channel and major channel number, even though the digital station broadcasts on RF channel 49. I get my TV over-the-air and my HDTV set identifies KASW-DT as channel 61.1.

Likewise for KECY 9 El Centro CA, which also serves Yuma AZ. It broadcasts an ABC feed on its 9.2 subchannel (currently on RF 48), which it brands as ABC 5, after its position on the major cable providers in the area. However, it must legally ID as KECY El Centro, and IIRC, it does use the channel number, so it's KECY 9.2 El Centro.

 

[w9wi]

What about stations that do not verbally ID themselves with either? Such as WFTS ch. 28 and WTTA ch. 38, who refer to themselves as "Your ABC Action News Station" and "My TV Tampa Bay" respectively?

TV stations must ID either visually or aurally. They don't have to do both.

I'd presume WFTS puts up a graphic that reads "WFTS Tampa" somewhere on the screen at/near the top of the hour. (often that graphic is REALLY TINY...) Likewise with WTTA.
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...in the three years (2004-07) I lived in La Crosse, Wisconsin, I never saw KTTC/10 Rochester use anything but their call letters. No "Channel 10" except in a single no0stalgia promo they ran circa New Years '05...

Last I checked, KTTC has four translators - 67 La Crosse, 62 Winona, 8 Mankato, and 70 Blue Earth. All but Mankato have permits to convert to digital operation (channels 50/16/43 respectively) so apparently they still care about them.

Between that and the possibility their cable channel isn't 10 in some of their more important cities I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't too hung up on being "channel 10".

 

[KML0224]

Channel 70 in Blue Earth, MN? Are you sure? TV stopped at UHF channel 69 years ago.

 

[w9wi]

Channel 70 in Blue Earth, MN? Are you sure? TV stopped at UHF channel 69 years ago.

Yep.

It may be (probably is) off the air on ch. 70 and probably holds Special Temporary Authority for some lower channel, but it's still on the books as a channel 70 operation.

I'm not entirely sure it's the last one. One in Colorado finally got its displacement application approved last fall.

 

[KeithE4]

Channel 70 in Blue Earth, MN? Are you sure? TV stopped at UHF channel 69 years ago.

Yep.

It may be (probably is) off the air on ch. 70 and probably holds Special Temporary Authority for some lower channel, but it's still on the books as a channel 70 operation.

K70DR Blue Earth, MN is still licensed as Channel 70.

I'm not entirely sure it's the last one. One in Colorado finally got its displacement application approved last fall.

K70FL Gunnison, CO is also listed as still being on Channel 70 per CDBS. They don't show a new channel.

There are also two stations in Virginia area still licensed on channels 70 & 73, both translators of the PBS station in Richmond. I think that's all the remaining stations on channels above 69.

 

[w9wi]

K70DR Blue Earth, MN is still licensed as Channel 70.
K70FL Gunnison, CO is also listed as still being on Channel 70 per CDBS. They don't show a new channel.

There are also two stations in Virginia area still licensed on channels 70 & 73, both translators of the PBS station in Richmond. I think that's all the remaining stations on channels above 69.

Seven stations above channel 69 still appear in CDBS with statuses other than "License Cancelled":

K51CM International Falls, Minn. (listed on channel 70, but also with a licensed facility on channel 51 so I'm sure channel 70 has been gone for quite awhile)

K70DR - last renewed in 1997, filed an application in 2006 to move to channel 16 and convert to DTV; this application has been granted.

K70FL - listed as Hartsel, Colorado. Filed an application to move to channel 23 in 2004, which has since been granted, and it also has Special Temporary Authority to operate on channel 23, issued last year. May still have been on channel 70 as recently as last year, but probably not...

W70AP & W73AJ in Virginia, translators of WCVE-23 Richmond. Both listed as renewed in 1998 but no sign of any attempt to move below channel 52. Previous visits to Virginia have shown none of the then-listed >69 translators still operating on any channel.

W71AG - New Haven, Connecticut (CT Public TV). Bizarre record, shows an application for a new station was dismissed in 1982, but it wouldn't have received call letters if it hadn't been granted... also shows that it expired in 1975... I suspect it actually existed but indeed expired in 1975 & somehow a different new-station application got attached to this station's facility ID...

K79AQ - Grand Portage, Minnesota. Only activity listed was a transfer of control in 1978. Probably allowed to expire not too long thereafter.

So I would suggest that K70DR might still be authorized to operate on channel 70 but not for much longer. (K70FL probably could too if the STA expired but again I don't see that happening.)

The last station I *know* operated above channel 69 was in Hoisington, Kansas near Great Bend on channel 70 relaying KAKE-TV Wichita. It was last seen by DXers in 2000. A channel 75 station in Montana may have lasted a year or two longer.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that somewhere, in an isolated corner of Nevada, there's a forgotten translator still spewing out RF on channel 72, with no TVs tuning that high anymore and most recent cellular service on higher frequency bands, could be that nobody's noticed.

 

[tripinva]

W70AP & W73AJ in Virginia, translators of WCVE-23 Richmond. Both listed as renewed in 1998 but no sign of any attempt to move below channel 52. Previous visits to Virginia have shown none of the then-listed >69 translators still operating on any channel.

Yeah, I live reasonably close to South Boston and have visited and tried W73AJ and never gotten anything. I'm pretty sure W70AP is off the air too, though I wouldn't know for sure.

I also think that most of WCVE's other translators (W66BI Danville and W39AR Rockfish Valley) are also off the air according to the engineer I talked to a few years ago, though W60BM in Rustburg is still on the air for sure (watching it right now), but it's pretty sporadic and will be turned off on 02/17/09.

- Trip

 

[chuckydoll]

Where I live TV stations do not use the virtual number to ID a DT signal. For Fox5/NY the legal ID is simply "WNYW/WNYW-DT, New York".

KNSD San Diego brands as 7/39 - 39 is the actual over-the-air analog channel - while others brand as "Channel X, cable Y".

You are referring to NBC 7/39; channel 7 for cable, channel 39 for DirecTV/Dish Network/OTA.

 

[dhett]

KNSD San Diego brands as 7/39 - 39 is the actual over-the-air analog channel - while others brand as "Channel X, cable Y".

You are referring to NBC 7/39; channel 7 for cable, channel 39 for DirecTV/Dish Network/OTA.

You are correct - that is KNSD.