CHHR move to 104.3 approved

[Dan Sys]

The application by CHHR 104.1 (Shore FM) to move to 104.3 was approved by the CRTC today:
http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2009/2009-168.htm
All that remains now is for the FCC to rubber stamp KAFE Bellingham's move from 104.3 to 104.1 and KMCQ 104.5 can finally become a real Seattle radio station.

 

[radioplayer]

Thanks for the info Dan...

After all of the posturing that has gone on with this "application(s)" since 2002, was it all "worth it" First Broadcasting???

I really want to know if in the end, will anyone ever come out ahead from a $$ perspective in Dallas.....

From my total guess of things, these guys have spent at least 25 Mil by now on attorneys, back door deals, KMIH, KAFE, etc.,....so, does anyone think that they'll get 40 or 50 mil in exchange for this work?

I really think this deal was a total bust. Will listeners benefit? Perhaps, but I really don't think that another station is going to benefit anyone at the expense of REDUCED coverage for KAFE and any other station involved in this deal.

Also, who's going to BUY this turkey? Assuming 7500 watts @ Cougar, it still won't cover as well as the mainline stations in town...so, given this economy and what the coverage will be, who will invest in this new Seattle station anyone?

 

[SeattleRadioPro]

It's called legalized gambling. First took a chance that the move would pay off handsomely. It won't. So they'll move the stick to Cougar, put the property on the market at a (relatively) bargain price and lick their wounds. But it's not the end for doing deals like this - not by a long shot.

 

[Steenman]

First off, I think any of us that have, been following this (even casually) know better than to call any part of this deal "done" until the thing is on Cougar broadcasting - there have just been too many "twists and turns" to this story.

Second, I don't get why people who love and are involved in radio would have a negative "snarky" attitude about this deal.

In my view, the definition of good business is "adding value" and it's pretty hard to argue that First hasn't done this. They found an opportunity to bring in a new signal and literally "carved out" a place for it. They had to invest their time, their money and take a (big) risk. As I understand it, they had to buy and sell a Forks station, convince KAFE to move, convince the Canadian station to move, work through International regulations, figure out all the technical and political stuff, then weather a down economy while pouring money into an uncertain venture. Sheeze, I say Kudos to these guys, I don't think I'd have the stones to do all that and keep going.

Seattle listeners get more choices on their radio, the Dalles and forks still have stations, everyone wins here. Maybe there's even some additional EMPLOYMENT for some of you good talented people who are out of work in the market.

We ought to be welcoming these guys with a parade! Sheeze!

 

[LITTLEBOYBLUE]

We ought to be welcoming these guys with a parade! Sheeze!

The flipside, Ed, is that we're in a market with 60 signals ... about 10-15 of which are really viable. We're in an industry that's on life support in an economy in the same place.

So welcoming yet another signal into the fray that wasn't really NEEDED in the first place is a bit like high-fiving N. Suleman if she decides she wants to have another 11 kids after the 14 she has. Sure, if would probably be a helluvan accomplishment, but at the expense of both her other kids AND the people who will be expected to take care of all of them.\

Your point is still relevant, though. First folks have been troupers in persistence. My own bias is I still can't get past an FCC that agrees "COVINGTON" needed an FM signal so Oregon could shut theirs' down and move here. Much of this deal has been all about "wink wink" so if you're frustrated that we're not high-fiving them at this stage....I wouldn't lose a WHOLE LOT of sleep over it.

 

[SeattleRadioPro]

In my view, the definition of good business is "adding value" and it's pretty hard to argue that First hasn't done this. They found an opportunity to bring in a new signal and literally "carved out" a place for it. They had to invest their time, their money and take a (big) risk.

That's the exact same thing I said. I just called it "legalized gambling" without detailing the entire process. They gambled - and as is the case when you take a gamble - sometimes you lose.

And while you're praising First's move don't think for a second that "serving the communities" and "creating new jobs" were at the top of the company's priorities when taking this gamble.

 

[Bongwater]

I imagine since the CRTC nodded already on this that there IS a date set already for KAFE to move.....

And when is that?

Secondly, responding to SeattleRadioPro "It's called legalized gambling. First took a chance that the move would pay off handsomely. It won't. So they'll move the stick to Cougar, put the property on the market at a (relatively) bargain price and lick their wounds. But it's not the end for doing deals like this - not by a long shot."

WHO invests in a company that ends up losing money like this (regardless of actual outcome.)? What are the returns here?

And are the regulators going to take a long hard look at THIS?

 

[Steenman]

If they end up in cluster that you work for or sell, it gives you one more tool in the toolbox or one more job to do. If they end up across the street, it's one more signal you have to compete against and lose share to. I agree that "Convington" was hardly underserved and this seemed like a loophole but so does a Christian station getting licensed to the education band. We could get into a discussion about Government oversight, or lack thereof but, that being said, I tend to lean on the side of a free market economy, businesses that figure out how to win, survive, those that don't, fail.

I look forward for one more option for my advertisers and hope that somehow it gets some folks "off the beach" and working again whether that was the intention or not.

 

[Shiny Knob]

Seattle listeners get more choices on their radio, the Dalles and forks still have stations, everyone wins here. Maybe there's even some additional EMPLOYMENT for some of you good talented people who are out of work in the market.

We ought to be welcoming these guys with a parade! Sheeze!

I don't know who backed their horse in here, but the place is filling up fast.

Yeah, KMCQ is going to bring hundreds of radio jobs back to Seattle any day now, once they get their class C2 BBQ lighter fired up on Cougar.

I for one don't appreciate the move-in, since they blew up my LPFM to make it happen. But then, since it's not a commercial station, who the hell cares?

What could be more All-American than applauding some money grubbing weasels when they move in, muscle out somebody who was already there and maybe make some money from it. If you're not tough enough to pump a few rounds into the tougher competitor, you should just shut up and leave. Screw the public, they're too damned stupid to rise up against us, so they don't matter.

From the free enterprise viewpoint, I don't know why we aren't giving parades to the "risk-takers" who are selling drugs at the schools. These are people who are willing to take a risk so that they can maybe profit from the free market economy. It's not really hurting anybody. At least nobody important.

The public good is really irrelevant when there's real money to be grabbed. That's what made America what it is today. The little guy is merely plant food so we, the future super-rich, can work our financial magic on this fertile soil of unclaimed radio bandwidth.

And that's the kind of thinking that has given radio the dazzling bright future that nearly blinds us all with promise of employment, prosperity and a feeling of fulfillment in an industry that has finally grown past the arcane concept of serving the public convenience and necessity.

Let's hear it for us. We're doing a truly fabulous job for ourselves and our public.



-The Knob

 

[FMSteve]

Wow. I've been under a rock for awhile and just saw this come up on the radar.

I can't believe the Canadians waived the spacing rules for adjacent channels and the I.F. channel (Intermediate Frequency 10.6/10.8 Mhz). You see, this plan would never fly in the United States. Especially the I.F. channel where there would expect to be interference in North Vancouver on 93.7 Mhz, CJJR. See: http://www.jrfm.com/

If both are Class C, under fcc rules, you'll need to be spaced between xmit points 48 kilometers, or 30 miles. But in this case they are operating within a kilometer (or so) up on Mt. Seymour. So it's a breathtaking approval, in my opinion. For those that read the app, KAFE will pull back in ERP towards the North, and the new 104.3 Shore FM will increase power, thus improving the interference problem between them and KAFE. So, in a sense, it's an app that "makes sense". And seeing that there were no petitions to deny or "interventions" as they say in Canada, the the CRTC just went for it.

But again, what about the I.F. issues? Personally, I think the CRTC took a blind eye towards this issue. Or maybe Canadian radios are much more selective and much better than American radios. Yeah, that's it! Canadian radios are better!

An even more likely scenario could be that our own FCC rules are out of date and out of touch. But to admit that would let loose hundreds if not thousands of LPFM's in our midst. Surely the NAB would rapid-fire and carpet-bomb those that desire to loosen up on the rules.

Many don't even realize to what extent First Broadcasting went to get this allocation. Not only did they propose to remove hundreds of citizens from their only radio service (evil, if you ask me), but they had to build out KHAL, Condon, Oregon (pop 532) in Central Oregon to remedy the problem. They first proposed to rely on unbuilt or "vacant" allotments to justify their cause, but the FCC saw through this charade and thus KHAL was born to provide "service". I wonder if KHAL is still even on the air. Oh yeah... it might have gotten sold for $20,000 to Klickatat Broadcasting using remote control. My memory is fading. It's been seven years now.

The irony of this whole thing is that there was perfectly good spectrum on 104.5 from part of Mercer Island (further North if using Longley-Rice methodology) to down South maybe to Kent or Auburn. But it didn't fit the fcc playbook. But it was there all along. I am sure some people in the business knew for a long time that KMCQ might be able to expand Northward. It was just a matter of time.

So, assuming no more glitches getting up to Cougar, what's going to become of 104.5? What makes perfect sense is that Clear Channel picks this up and becomes SportsRadio 104.5/950, as a simulcast. The demo would be men 18-49 and pull a 1-2 suckerpunch to KIRO-AM. In fact, I wonder if Entercom made a monumental mistake by going to news on the FM. I always touted the reverse....keep the heritage AM News and use the FM for sports.

I guess we'll see.

 

[SeattleObserver]

...Personally, I think the CRTC took a blind eye towards this issue. Or maybe Canadian radios are much more selective and much better than American radios. Yeah, that's it! Canadian radios are better!

LOL! Yes, that must be it. Their Sonys are better than ours. Their GM cars have better RDS than ours.

What makes perfect sense is that Clear Channel picks this up and becomes SportsRadio 104.5/950, as a simulcast. The demo would be men 18-49 and pull a 1-2 suckerpunch to KIRO-AM. In fact, I wonder if Entercom made a monumental mistake by going to news on the FM.

KIRO-AM/FM are owned by Bonneville.

 

[Seattleradiodude]

So, assuming no more glitches getting up to Cougar, what's going to become of 104.5? What makes perfect sense is that Clear Channel picks this up and becomes SportsRadio 104.5/950, as a simulcast. The demo would be men 18-49 and pull a 1-2 suckerpunch to KIRO-AM. In fact, I wonder if Entercom made a monumental mistake by going to news on the FM. I always touted the reverse....keep the heritage AM News and use the FM for sports.

Umm, no Clear Channel... with their recent acquisition on KBKS im pretty sure they are maxed on ownership? It would seem like it.
Entercomm, I don’t see them interested in another station with the current economic situation, (I thought they were facing delisting due to low trading?)

Fisher? Possibly, although with Fisher Plaza up for sale and having recently sold almost all their AM/FM properties outside of Seattle, not likely.
CBS may be trying to exit Seattle, but I don’t know if that true or not because they had said they'll keep the "Top 20" Markets

Sandusky might pick it up, they would almost certainly negotiate the price WAYY down.
Bustos maybe? Honestly... with a signal that will be close to that of KNHC's. I don’t see anyone interested till after the financial situation turns around.

Also, im not sure how you can "1-2 suckerpunch" KIRO-FM with a sports format? Bonneville moved sports to the AM
[I misread your post FMSteve, my bad]

Ahh, The FUN of radio!

 

[Bongwater]

Either KNHC has jumped beyond the 104.7 South Everett/Lynnwood translator status or I missed something. Last I checked, it was still 89.5........

 

[swhyde1980]

Either KNHC has jumped beyond the 104.7 South Everett/Lynnwood translator status or I missed something. Last I checked, it was still 89.5........

I am not totally clear on this, but I think it's an I.F. issue  When an FM station, for example... is on 104.5, it can cause some 10.4Mhz increment issues on 94.1 Mhz, and also up in the commercial aircraft frequencies on 114.9 Mhz.  Maybe some "doppler shift" issue, or an issue with signals bouncing off mountains, or just a filter issue on radios.  The only thing I can think of this, is that when I was living with my Mom in Bremerton, up against a hill, 92.5 was also causing interference to 94.5 (caused problems picking up KRXY from Olympia) even though that was only 2 Mhz away.  This is something I know nothing about though, but evidently the FCC takes into account when spacing stations, and operating them away from airports.... although the tuner I was using didn't really "suck". The same tuner I was using during a DX opening, picked up stations in the summer time from the midwest, and even during fall/winter, picked up 102.3 from Eugene, OR.

 

[w9wi]

I am not totally clear on this, but I think it's an I.F. issue When an FM station, for example... is on 104.5, it can cause some 10.4Mhz increment issues on 94.1 Mhz, and also up in the commercial aircraft frequencies on 114.9 Mhz. Maybe some "doppler shift" issue, or an issue with signals bouncing off mountains, or just a filter issue on radios. The only thing I can think of this, is that when I was living with my Mom in Bremerton, up against a hill, 92.5 was also causing interference to 94.5 (caused problems picking up KRXY from Olympia) even though that was only 2 Mhz away. This is...

The problem is... that all FM radios contain an "intermediate frequency amplifier". This is part of Edwin Armstrong's "superhetrodyne" circuit. The "IF amp" provides much of the signal amplification in the radio and almost all its selectivity. (its ability to distinguish between 92.5 and 93.3 and 94.1 etc...) In nearly all FM radios this IF amp operates somewhere between 10.6 and 10.8MHz.

If two stations with nearby transmitters operate on frequencies separated by 10.6 or 10.8MHz, it is possible for their signals to mix and generate a new signal *on* 10.6 or 10.8MHz. That signal can leak in to the wiring of radios and be amplified by the IF amp.

If that happens, the affected radios will hear a mix of the programming of the two stations -- regardless of what station those radios are tuned to - even if those radios are not tuned to either of the 10.6/10.8 separated stations. Even if you were tuned to CBU 105.7, you'd hear a mix of CJJR 93.7 and CHHR 104.3. (and CBU)

My guess is that Industry Canada figures the area in which this problem will happen will be fairly small and close to the transmitters. Since pretty much nobody lives on Mount Seymour (nor drives over the mountain to get to work) they figure the IF interference, while it will exist, won't affect any significant number of listeners.

I guess we'll soon find out whether they're right!

_________________________________________________
(incidentially, nearly all AM radios also use this circuit. On AM the IF amp usually operates between 450 and 460KHz - so, for example, having a station on 620 and on 1070 in the same city might be a problem.)

 

[FMSteve]

...Personally, I think the CRTC took a blind eye towards this issue. Or maybe Canadian radios are much more selective and much better than American radios. Yeah, that's it! Canadian radios are better!

LOL! Yes, that must be it. Their Sonys are better than ours. Their GM cars have better RDS than ours.

What makes perfect sense is that Clear Channel picks this up and becomes SportsRadio 104.5/950, as a simulcast. The demo would be men 18-49 and pull a 1-2 suckerpunch to KIRO-AM. In fact, I wonder if Entercom made a monumental mistake by going to news on the FM.

KIRO-AM/FM are owned by Bonneville.

Observer, thanks for the Bonneville correction. My bad!

 

[Dan Sys]

According to this story from Broadcaster Magazine today CHHR (Shore FM) will launch on June 1st:
http://www.broadcastermagazine.com/issues/ISArticle.asp?id=98469&issue=04072009
I would assume KAFE will be making the move to 104.1 real soon as Canadian radio stations are required to conduct tests for several weeks before the official launch date.

 

[SeattleObserver]

Interesting. I suppose that will end the (apparently) amicable relationship between Astral and Pattison Media in Vancouver.

(---)
CISL650 took on parts of AM600's format and personalities.
100.3 the Peak (FM transfer of AM600 license) is "Triple A" as is the reportedly the new "Shore 104."
(--/end tangent--)