Chuck Leonard Vs. Walt Love

[JMC7982]

Oh, really? What is your source on this? I happen to believe Rick Sklar.

Yes, Scott was fired in 1965, and Hello Dolly peaked in 1964. But the saga dragged on after he first complained about the song.

From Rick Sklar's book:

"When Hello Dolly, the antithesis of rock & roll, clung to the number one playlist position week after week--a rank that meant it got played every sixty minutes--Scott Muni became furious. 'Get that song off my show,' he demanded. I refused."

Sklar continued:

"Eventually Scott Muni challenged the record store sales data secured by my telephone researcher. 'How do we know that she writes down what the store clerk is saying at the other end?,' he demanded. He threatened to go to the FCC and punch holes in the integrity of our system.

"I stayed calm. 'No problem,' I said. 'We'll tape the calls.' I immediately added a beep sound and a soundscriber tape system to the research phones.

"Next week he was back again, complaining to me in front of my staff about the short playlist. 'I haven't declared war on you yet,' he warned. 'But when I do--'

"'You have,' I said. 'The war is over.'

"Scott left. He was a very talented jock with a unique voice that got ratings, but the situation was untenable.

"It was a long time before Scott and I began talking again..."

If Rick made that up, he had quite an imagination, as it appears you do.

OK, let's take a look:

"When Hello Dolly, the antithesis of rock & roll, clung to the number one playlist position week after week"

Not true.
Hello Dolly was number 1 for two nonconsecutive weeks, the week of 4/14 and 4/28.

'How do we know that she writes down what the store clerk is saying at the other end?

Did Scott have a subscription to Billboard, the station probably did. In the case of Hello Dolly the song spent 13 weeks in the top 10 including a week at number 1 and 15 weeks in the top 14. In New York it did a little better, 15 weeks in the top 10 and 20 in the top 14 (it broke about a month early in New York).

Scott may well have been unhappy, I don't doubt that for a minute, he had a young, talented, very ambiguous DJ looking to move up that already had a relationship with Sklar in the lesser shift right behind him. On top of that, Sklar hadn't hired Muni.

"Scott left. He was a very talented jock with a unique voice that got ratings

Well about that, B. Mitchel Reed on WMCA was doing very well there was a sense Muni's ratings could be better. In defense of Muni he had radio's worst lead-in, an antiquated one hour and 20 minute news block. He started his show at 7:20 playing oldies until 8pm.

What did you expect Sklar to write, I fired Muni because Cousin Brucie was a much better top 40 jock.

Muni had three kids, and either a wife or an ex-wife (he remarried in 66). You think he was going to storm out leaving a high paying job because he didn't like the records he was playing.

The story was good for the book it gave the reader (remember this book was written for the general population) a feel for top 40 radio from a management perspective and feel for issues that came up from time to time with the talent.

 

[Gregg.]

Hello Dolly was the top song on the "WABC Top 100 Hits of 1964." So it must have gotten played over and over and over. It couldn't make it to the top spot on the year-end list if it didn't have a great performance on the weekly charts.

The Musicradio WABC Top 100 of 1964

www.musicradio77.com

I took the Hello Dolly story with a grain of salt too. Cousin Brucie was more of a teen DJ compared to Muni. So I suppose Sklar may have wanted to replace Muni with Brucie for that evening shift. But would Sklar make up a story in print that Muni could refute?

Maybe it was several factors. Muni must have made it clear he was getting tired of the Top 40 format, whether he had to play Hello Dolly or My Boy Lollipop or Popsicles Icicles ever 60 to 90 minutes. Another WABC DJ, Bob Lewis, voluntarily moved from WABC to WABC-FM so he could play Progressive Rock on weekdays but still doing Sundays on 770 AM.

So perhaps it was a combination of Muni's increasing unhappiness AND Brucie's talents as a teen DJ that led to Muni leaving 770. He didn't know it yet, but he would become a pioneer of Progressive Rock, first on WOR-FM, then for decades on WNEW-FM. We didn't have much interaction but I worked with Muni there. I had more opportunities to chat with Carol Miller and Dennis Elsis.

 

[davideduardo]

Meanwhile Murray The K reinvented himself at WHFS in Washington DC.

Remember, WHFS was a Class A station with a rooftop antenna in Bethesda. Even in the smaller DC area of that era, it had very limited coverage. In 1972, it was 3.4 kw at 340 feet HAAT.

 

[RoddyFreeman]

Remember, WHFS was a Class A station with a rooftop antenna in Bethesda. Even in the smaller DC area of that era, it had very limited coverage. In 1972, it was 3.4 kw at 340 feet HAAT.

When Murray the K left New York for Washington, he first went to WWDC, where he did afternoon drive. Then he went to WHFS and did mornings with his wife.

 

[Weiserguy]

Tape quality then was more than adequate for AM. By the mid-60's most major AM stations had their music on cartridges, in fact.

The quality was good enough for FM, too. It's just that in most of the 60's there were few successful FMs

The audio quality of tape and broadcast-grade decks was more than adequate for AM rebroadcast, but for FM, the difference between live and Memorex could be noticeable. That could be ameliorated by recording and playing back at a higher speed, like 15 ips, but most stations didn't do that, considering 7.5 ips to be adequate. But if you knew what to listen for, you could hear the difference. The sound was duller, the transients weren't as crisp, and the noise floor was detectable. Keep in mind that this was before Dolby noise reduction technology was even available, much less commonly build into the equipment.

Listening from 20 miles away, on a consumer-grade stereo system and a pair of Koss headphones, I could tell the difference between Muni live and Muni on tape, or Rosko, Murray, Johnny Michaels, Allison Steele, Jonathan Schwartz or any of the other WOR or WNEW talent on the FM side. But on AM, nope, no way, a show was a show was a show, whether real time or pre-taped. (BTW, that went for WMCA too, where certain hours of the Good Guys, or even full programs, could have been pre-taped.)

In fact, broadcast tape recording was developed in part by Ampex (using German WW II concepts) with the support of Bing Crosby who did not like having to do his show over again live for the West Coast. So he use tape to rebroadcast the show "just as it was for the East Coast" with no loss of quality... in the later 1940's.

Absolutely true. I just feel like inserting my 2 cents that I used to work on the very campus that once housed the Ampex campus. From my 4th floor office window, I could stare out at the big honkin' AMPEX sign adjacent to Highway 101. (That sign was taken down and put into storage a few years back, and apparently nobody's interested in doing anything with it, despite its historical significance.)

 

[davideduardo]

The audio quality of tape and broadcast-grade decks was more than adequate for AM rebroadcast, but for FM, the difference between live and Memorex could be noticeable. That could be ameliorated by recording and playing back at a higher speed, like 15 ips, but most stations didn't do that, considering 7.5 ips to be adequate. But if you knew what to listen for, you could hear the difference. The sound was duller, the transients weren't as crisp, and the noise floor was detectable. Keep in mind that this was before Dolby noise reduction technology was even available, much less commonly build into the equipment.

Yet in the 70's all the syndicated full formats, from Country to Beautiful Music, were on 7 ½ ips tape. As a person who syndicated a format to Latin America, I could not tell the difference between the original disk and the tape...

Often the difference in recorded talent was the studio and mike setup for the recordings. Most of us could tell the difference between the expensive recording studio mike and the ones in the air studio, made to resist cigarette smoke, spitting and bumping!

 

[Weiserguy]

What limitations are you talking about? How do you think music was recorded in the 50s? On reel to reel tape.

Read what I just wrote in post #25. Music was recorded at 15 inches per second (IPS). Speech was at 7 1/2 (or 7.5) ips. The difference was noticeable. For one thing, music is a more complex waveform, and the limitations of the tape medium were hidden by that complexity. Just having a voice against a quiet studio background made it clear to a discerning listener that it was not live, especially at 7.5 ips. Someone at WOR explicitly told me that was the speed they recorded voice tracks in the 1960's, meaning for pre-canned shows. And in those days, everyone did 6, and sometimes 7, shows per week, so you know some of them had to have been pre-recorded.

 

[TheBigA]

Music was recorded at 15 inches per second (IPS). Speech was at 7 1/2 (or 7.5) ips. The difference was noticeable.

I agree, but all of the 24/7 music format distribution that I know of that was done in the 60s/70s was done on reel to reel tape at 7-1/2 ips on 10'' reels. The tape itself was polyester. I'm talking about Bonneville, TM, Schulke. That was acceptable for FM stations around the country, and that was state of the art until satellite. Would 15 ips have been better? Sure. But it would have cost more. So it wasn't done.

 

[Weiserguy]

OK, let's take a look:



Not true.
Hello Dolly was number 1 for two nonconsecutive weeks, the week of 4/14 and 4/28.

According to Billboard? Or Cashbox? It was a national hit, and in New York City and suburbs, it was a bigger hit than nationally. Hello Dolly was a big hit Broadway show in '64. Armstrong was as big a star as the world of jazz had in those days (and there were plenty of jazz stars back then). Armstrong lived in Corona, Queens. All these factors combined to make it a regional megahit, especially since so much of the other Rock 'n Roll oxygen was getting sucked up by the Beatles and other British Invasion acts of the day

Scott may well have been unhappy, I don't doubt that for a minute, he had a young, talented, very ambiguous DJ looking to move up that already had a relationship with Sklar in the lesser shift right behind him. On top of that, Sklar hadn't hired Muni.

Scott may have been unhappy, but he also had a certain flakiness to his personality. Read Richard Neer's book ("FM") about his and Mike Harrison's early encounters with Scott. I had my own encounters with Scott, a few years before I ever met Mike and Richard. Scott could be a very nice, interesting guy, but he also could do something like blowing off a pre-scheduled, confirmed appointment for an interview (at his own apartment) without a second thought. I know because I was the one who wasted my day getting into the city from the Island to discover he blew me off.

Well about that, B. Mitchel Reed on WMCA was doing very well there was a sense Muni's ratings could be better. In defense of Muni he had radio's worst lead-in, an antiquated one hour and 20 minute news block. He started his show at 7:20 playing oldies until 8pm.

What did you expect Sklar to write, I fired Muni because Cousin Brucie was a much better top 40 jock.

Muni was a great jock, Brucie was a great jock. I've been fortunate enough to meet and chat with both. Muni's style, even at WABC, wasn't to pander to teens, whereas that was exactly Bruce's style in those days. Keep in mind the actual history. In 1963, 64, early 65, Scott was up against Mitch Reed and Murray the K. They were all great jocks, with presentations tailored to their target audiences. Mitch decided to return to Los Angeles in early '65, and eventually was replaced by Gary Stevens, who also tailored his presentation to the teen audience, but that was a few months later. Murray left WINS (or was let go) at the end of '64 or very beginning of '65, just before their switch to all-news. So not too soon after Muni and Sklar parted ways, the competitive landscape had shifted radically. And, it should also be pointed out, 18-or-so months before FM found rock-n-roll. (Or vice versa.)

Look a little later in the evening too. BMR's shift ended at 11 pm, and then Barry Gray began his 2 hour talk show, which was aimed at adults. Over at WINS, there was Pete "Mad Daddy" Myers, who was also let go in late '64. So Bruce's competition was very different, and by the time Muni was gone, he had a much simpler competitive landscape, making him look like an obvious shoo-in for Muni's earlier "teens" slot. Had the WABC two-step happened a year earlier, that decision might not have been quite so cut-and-dried.

 

[Weiserguy]

I agree, but all of the 24/7 music format distribution that I know of that was done in the 60s/70s was done on reel to reel tape at 7-1/2 ips on 10'' reels. The tape itself was polyester. I'm talking about Bonneville, TM, Schulke. That was acceptable for FM stations around the country, and that was state of the art until satellite. Would 15 ips have been better? Sure. But it would have cost more. So it wasn't done.

Again, the key difference was between solo voice and music. When you were playing music off tape, it just equivalently degraded but it wasn't as noticeable. (Keep in mind that every song that was carted was coming off tape at 7.5 ips. The ear gets used to expecting music to sound like that.) But live voice verses recorded voice was a discernible difference – in that era's technology. Especially if equipment wasn't being meticulously maintained. I could hear it, over-the-air, with the limited equipment I had access to. So could anyone else who had decent equipment and was paying attention.

EDIT: If you listened to any of the talent of the day over FM, and they were live on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then taped on Saturday and/or Sunday, the days they were VT'ed just sounded duller. Not what was being said (thought that sometimes sounded duller too) but audio quality-wise. It just was.

 

[Weiserguy]

When Muni left WOR-FM, he took Rosco with him. Rosco ended up leaving WNEW-FM over a similar music dispute.

As I understand it – and I heard it directly from a few horses' mouths, including Bill "Rosko" Mercer, George Duncan (WNEW-FM's GM at the time) and Muni – when Drake came into WOR-FM and began to blow away their "progressive" format, Metromedia thought RKO was insane, and said, in effect, "They have a gem, and if they don't want it, we sure do." So they hired Rosko first, put him on the air almost immediately in evenings, and then began negotiating with Muni. And in the interim hired Jonno Schwartz for mid-days and moved Allison Steele into nights. I guess the intention was to hold afternoons open for Muni, if they could come to terms (as they soon did). But by no means did Muni and Mercer come over as a package deal, as you implied. If anything, Muni was the one jock that Drake considered for his version of OR-FM, but the way it shook out, there was no chance that anyone wanted to stay around for the next, Drake iteration.

 

[TheBigA]

If anything, Muni was the one jock that Drake considered for his version of OR-FM, but the way it shook out, there was no chance that anyone wanted to stay around for the next, Drake iteration.

Because when you get a taste of freedom, it's hard to go back to autocracy. That's what WOR-FM under Drake would be. Muni already saw that movie. So had Rosco. Which was why when the consultants came into WNEW-FM and tightened up the music, and told Rosco to stop playing Elmore James, it was time for him to go.

 

[Weiserguy]

Because when you get a taste of freedom, it's hard to go back to autocracy. That's what WOR-FM under Drake would be. Muni already saw that movie. So had Rosco. Which was why when the consultants came into WNEW-FM and tightened up the music, and told Rosco to stop playing Elmore James, it was time for him to go.

What you say is true. For whatever other negatives there might have been in being an FM pioneer back in the '60s, they were able to actually be artists in their own right for a little while.

I know that Metromedia brought a consultant into NEW-FM at a certain point, but I think you're conflating two points in time. Rosko left in (IIRC) 1971. He wanted to spend some time living in France. The consultant(s) happened later in the '70s. Frankly, I can't blame him, he didn't exactly make it to a ripe old age. In fact very few of the early generation of FM jocks had lengthy lifespans. (Except Zacherle, who somehow made it into his late 90's. )

 

[TheBigA]

I know that Metromedia brought a consultant into NEW-FM at a certain point, but I think you're conflating two points in time. Rosko left in (IIRC) 1971. He wanted to spend some time living in France. The consultant(s) happened later in the '70s.

I don't think Rosco was fired. Just told to tighten up the music a bit. That made France look really good.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Hello Dolly was number 1 for two nonconsecutive weeks, the week of 4/14 and 4/28.

I’m told by those who knew Rick that he had a propensity for exaggeration.

BUT…

”Hello Dolly” was in the top-7 in every WABC weekly survey between March 3rd and June 9th, meaning that it would land in the “heavy rotation” category for three months. It’s easy to see Scottso’s frustration at having to stop down songs by the Beatles, Four Seasons, Motown, etc., for a Broadway show tune done in Dixieland-jazz style.

 

[TheBigA]

It’s easy to see Scottso’s frustration at having to stop down songs by the Beatles, Four Seasons, Motown, etc., for a Broadway show tune done in Dixieland-jazz style.

Coming on the heels of Sukiyaki sung in Japanese, and Dominique, sung entirely in French. Can you imagine? The station also played Al Hirt's Java and Dean Martin's Everybody Loves Somebody. UGH.

 

[JMC7982]

According to Billboard? Or Cashbox? It was a national hit, and in New York City and suburbs, it was a bigger hit than nationally. Hello Dolly was a big hit Broadway show in '64. Armstrong was as big a star as the world of jazz had in those days (and there were plenty of jazz stars back then). Armstrong lived in Corona, Queens. All these factors combined to make it a regional megahit, especially since so much of the other Rock 'n Roll oxygen was getting sucked up by the Beatles and other British Invasion acts of the day


Scott may have been unhappy, but he also had a certain flakiness to his personality. Read Richard Neer's book ("FM") about his and Mike Harrison's early encounters with Scott. I had my own encounters with Scott, a few years before I ever met Mike and Richard. Scott could be a very nice, interesting guy, but he also could do something like blowing off a pre-scheduled, confirmed appointment for an interview (at his own apartment) without a second thought. I know because I was the one who wasted my day getting into the city from the Island to discover he blew me off.

Muni was a great jock, Brucie was a great jock. I've been fortunate enough to meet and chat with both. Muni's style, even at WABC, wasn't to pander to teens, whereas that was exactly Bruce's style in those days. Keep in mind the actual history. In 1963, 64, early 65, Scott was up against Mitch Reed and Murray the K. They were all great jocks, with presentations tailored to their target audiences. Mitch decided to return to Los Angeles in early '65, and eventually was replaced by Gary Stevens, who also tailored his presentation to the teen audience, but that was a few months later. Murray left WINS (or was let go) at the end of '64 or very beginning of '65, just before their switch to all-news. So not too soon after Muni and Sklar parted ways, the competitive landscape had shifted radically. And, it should also be pointed out, 18-or-so months before FM found rock-n-roll. (Or vice versa.)

Look a little later in the evening too. BMR's shift ended at 11 pm, and then Barry Gray began his 2 hour talk show, which was aimed at adults. Over at WINS, there was Pete "Mad Daddy" Myers, who was also let go in late '64. So Bruce's competition was very different, and by the time Muni was gone, he had a much simpler competitive landscape, making him look like an obvious shoo-in for Muni's earlier "teens" slot. Had the WABC two-step happened a year earlier, that decision might not have been quite so cut-and-dried.

According to Billboard? Or Cashbox? It was a national hit, and in New York City and suburbs, it was a bigger hit than nationally.

With respect to Hello Dolly's chart performance the dates I first referenced were the dates it was number 1 on WABC (weeks of 4/14 & 4/28). It was number 1 for one week on Billboard's Hot 100, the week of 5/9.

With respect to Muni's departure from WABC he was let go plain and simple. I agree with your assessment of Bruce's talents, he was exactly what Rick wanted for a nighttime DJ at that time. When you have three kids to support, a wife (or maybe ex-wife, he was remarried in 66), and your steady paycheck is being threatened by the younger, talented DJ on right after you, and a PD that didn't hire you and doesn't get where you're coming from,, unhappiness, frustration, high anxiety are going to be part of the daily living experience.

 

[JMC7982]

I’m told by those who knew Rick that he had a propensity for exaggeration.

BUT…

”Hello Dolly” was in the top-7 in every WABC weekly survey between March 3rd and June 9th, meaning that it would land in the “heavy rotation” category for three months. It’s easy to see Scottso’s frustration at having to stop down songs by the Beatles, Four Seasons, Motown, etc., for a Broadway show tune done in Dixieland-jazz style.

Hello Dolly had the best chart performance on WABC of any record during the 1960's. It was not only WABC's number 1 song of 1964 it was the station's second biggest hit of the 60's. No other record spent 20 weeks in the top 14 during a single chart run. Of course The Twist charted twice, the combined total top 14 weeks tops Hello Dolly, and that song was the number 1 song on WABC of the 1960's.

 

[Gregg.]

What you say is true. For whatever other negatives there might have been in being an FM pioneer back in the '60s, they were able to actually be artists in their own right for a little while.

I know that Metromedia brought a consultant into NEW-FM at a certain point, but I think you're conflating two points in time. Rosko left in (IIRC) 1971. He wanted to spend some time living in France. The consultant(s) happened later in the '70s.

Yes, this is all true. Rosko was gone well before WNEW-FM hired any consultants. The station was, should we say "Free-Form" or "Progressive" into the late 1970s. The DJs were able to choose their own songs. Dennis Elsis says around the mid-1970s, there were some guidelines. Play a few songs per hour from current releases, try to choose different genres for each set, things like that. But again, no specific playlist.

In her book "Up All Night," Carol Miller says when she was hired in the 1980s, DJs who had long been with WNEW-FM were still choosing many of the songs they'd play. The weekend DJs and newer staff followed the guidelines. But not the veterans. She had come from WPLJ where there were very strict guidelines. PD Larry Berger even put stickers over the cuts on albums that were not being played. But when she suggested at WNEW-FM staff meetings that everyone try to play more popular songs to improve the ratings, her suggestions were not treated seriously. She says some DJs wouldn't even play the biggest-selling artists of the day, like Journey, Loverboy or Styx. They were too corporate.

It may have been 1980 or later that the music was all on computer and a real playlist was on that computer, not just a card file where you could easily pass over songs you didn't like. Scott Muni was no longer the P.D. He had to follow the playlist, along with the other veterans. He also had a board op by then as well, further limiting his choice of songs.

 

[MasterDJ]

Chuck Leonard had been doing R&B until 1965, when he was hired at WABC. He was there until 1979.

Walt "Baby" Love joined WOR-FM in 1970. It's not clear (to me) where he had been prior to that. It's possible he'd been doing Top 40 in a different market. Even at OR-FM, it wasn't a true Top 40 until a few years later, after they'd transitioned to 99X (WXLO).

I just discovered that Walt "Baby" Love was at KHJ before NYC (CKLW, KHJ, OR/XLO).