LAFS
In other words, she was braless...
Radknowski said:
In other words, she was braless...
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CHWO vs. the Buffalo Market
- Thread starter MediaBoy4Radio
- Start date
C
chuckydoll
Guest
AM 740 has decent ratings in Buffalo but that's gravy.
As a Canadian station AM 740 is licensed to serve Toronto. The station cannot solicit advertising in Buffalo and their website is not intended for an American audience.
I raise this point for a valid reason: The CRTC is keeping a close eye on CKEY-FM, which is licensed to Fort Erie but targets Buffalo with a pop format as Z101.
As a Canadian station AM 740 is licensed to serve Toronto. The station cannot solicit advertising in Buffalo and their website is not intended for an American audience.
I raise this point for a valid reason: The CRTC is keeping a close eye on CKEY-FM, which is licensed to Fort Erie but targets Buffalo with a pop format as Z101.
Are you sure AM 740 can't sell advertising in Buffalo? I ran into a sales representative for the station a couple of weeks ago who says he is representing AM740 here and is attempting to attract Buffalo advertisers.
chuckydoll said:
Stranger things have happened, but are you sure CHWO is not allowed to solicit advertising in the States?
The CRTC does frequently set a condition of license that prohibits a station from soliciting advertising in a particular area, but whenever I've seen such a condition, it's set to protect other Canadian stations from competition. I've never seen the CRTC protect a U.S. station from competition this way. Indeed, it's common to see "repatriation of audience from U.S. stations" cited as a reason to grant a license for a new Canadian station.
I might suspect that it just doesn't make economic sense for CHWO to solicit advertising in the States. There are a lot more people north (west!) of the border & the economy up (/over) there seems to be in much better shape.
These posts have a common thread...the question seems to be..."Would the Buffalo market support a 50+ MOR station, or something similar to CHWO ?
The real question is..Do any of the current owners have the corporate "stones" to explore the possibility?
I have always felt that there is a market for that format in the Buffalo marketplace. But changing format is but one piece to the puzzle. It is critical that the sales force and on air personalities be of the same vintage as the audience it's seeking. If your going to do Sinatra, Mathis and the other artists of the 50's & 60's you need on air people who know and appreciate this music. This presents some interesting possibilities for those of us who are of that era. On the sales side..it would be the "seasoned" pros, the guys and gals who lived during those times that could convince advertisers that they are missing out on a "huge" segment of the Buffalo population.
It seems to me that one can go from one end of the AM or FM dial to the other, and pretty much hear the same stuff being played. Where is the diversity?
I would only hope that these posts are viewed by the one person that could make the decision.
The real question is..Do any of the current owners have the corporate "stones" to explore the possibility?
I have always felt that there is a market for that format in the Buffalo marketplace. But changing format is but one piece to the puzzle. It is critical that the sales force and on air personalities be of the same vintage as the audience it's seeking. If your going to do Sinatra, Mathis and the other artists of the 50's & 60's you need on air people who know and appreciate this music. This presents some interesting possibilities for those of us who are of that era. On the sales side..it would be the "seasoned" pros, the guys and gals who lived during those times that could convince advertisers that they are missing out on a "huge" segment of the Buffalo population.
It seems to me that one can go from one end of the AM or FM dial to the other, and pretty much hear the same stuff being played. Where is the diversity?
I would only hope that these posts are viewed by the one person that could make the decision.
Stones
WECK was billing over a million a year. Want to guess what they're billing now?
It takes sales people who can sell the older audience to advertisers in order for a standards, "true" oldies, or hybrid to work. The sales guys with that kind of capability are handling the bigger accounts for stations that are an easier sell. Try and tell a 24-year-old fresh out of college that they're selling Standards, and they'll be across the street faster than you can say "iPod".
The only one with a shot at making it work is a dedicated local owner who is personally invested in the music and the format. Corporate will find an easier way to pay the bills, or use the station as a flanker to protect a cash cow.
WECK was billing over a million a year. Want to guess what they're billing now?
It takes sales people who can sell the older audience to advertisers in order for a standards, "true" oldies, or hybrid to work. The sales guys with that kind of capability are handling the bigger accounts for stations that are an easier sell. Try and tell a 24-year-old fresh out of college that they're selling Standards, and they'll be across the street faster than you can say "iPod".
The only one with a shot at making it work is a dedicated local owner who is personally invested in the music and the format. Corporate will find an easier way to pay the bills, or use the station as a flanker to protect a cash cow.
The best examples being Lou Shriver & Family with WXRL, Dick Greene with WLVL, Bob Savage with WYSL and Dan Fischer with WBTA. Four AM stand-alones. Amazing.
Looking at the 12+ ratings I can't believe Entercom likes the number next to WWKB better than the number that's next to CHWO, no matter how old the demos are.
As for WECK I can't even fathom what they were thinking. Maybe it was.. Let's see now how can we kill this radio station? I like Classic Country but it doesn't exactly have a stellar track record. Heck even WSM 650 doesn't get numbers.
As for WECK I can't even fathom what they were thinking. Maybe it was.. Let's see now how can we kill this radio station? I like Classic Country but it doesn't exactly have a stellar track record. Heck even WSM 650 doesn't get numbers.
C
chuckydoll
Guest
Philip_Airtime said:
Should have said does not sell advertising in Buffalo.
Philip_Airtime said:
That would be suicidal, given that AM 740 has steadily lost money since its sign-on and has just come under new ownership.
The Buffalo Bills don't make a big push for fans in southern Ontario. Why? The Bills would be trampling on the CFL clubs in Hamilton and Toronto -- and the CFL has been in financial straits to the point where it's been subsidized by the NFL.
In much the same way Toronto radio doesn't pitch Buffalo advertisers. Besides, Western New York has been steadily losing population for the last 30 years.
Technically, this is correct. But you wouldn't think it was the case if you were sitting in the "Rockpile" section of the scoreboard end zone Monday night. Or if you happened to walk through the parking lots and saw the buses with Ontario plates and the fans spilling out of them with Bills (and admittedly some Cowboys) jerseys. Or if you were in the stadium, crowd watching, eh?
Fact is, the Bills do market to Southern Ontario in both overt and discreet ways. In seasons past, the Bills have featured Canada appreciation day and other events designed to attract and show appreciation for their season and game-to-game ticket holders who live on the other side of the river.
Estimates are 10 per cent of the Bills season ticket holders live in Canada, perhaps more. Not being a publicly held corporation, the Bills don't disclose any more information about these matters than they care to. Certainly, the Bills don't advertise on Canadian TV or radio, but they do advertise on radio and TV in Western New York and their commercials beckon all who hear them to buy a ticket.
The Buffalo Bills are marketed as a regional team and wisely so, since they draw fans from Buffalo, Niagara Falls, Rochester, Erie, Syracuse, Binghamton, Elmira-Corning and St. Catherines, Fort Erie, Welland, Hamilton and yes, even Torona, T-O, Toronto (which, it should be noted, is one of the coolest cities I've had the pleasure of visiting, I prefer it to NYC.)
As we know, radio signals don't stop at the border and they don't have to clear Customs. The Bills do get an occasional mention on Q-107 and The Fan 590.
Now that the Canadian dollar is on par with the US dollar, Canadians are more likely to visit Buffalo to take in a Bills game, a Sabres game and other entertainment and sporting events. It's cheap and convenient, cheaper than buying tickets for the Leafs and the Blue Jays. The Ti-Cats and Argos may be different stories.
The Rainbow, Whirlpool, Lewiston and Peace bridges afford easy (although sometimes delayed) access to Western New York.
If you've ever attended a Sabres-Leafs game, you'd see that easily 40% of the HSBC Arena is filled with those nettlesome Leafs fans. It's so nice to send them home with a loss when the Leafs lose. And when the Leafs win, their fans are insufferable hoser. But in the end, they're spending their bucks in the USA and for that alone, you gotta love 'em. Plus, they know their hockey and appreciate good play.
Knowledgeable sociologists and demographers have told me that if the population of Southern Ontario cities such as Hamilton, Niagara Falls, Ontario; St. Catharines and Fort Erie and the population of the Niagara Peninsula were included in Arbitron's Buffalo-Niagara Falls market parameters, this would be a top twenty market.
There was some discussion that NAFTA might have allowed for something like this, however, as it was approved, NAFTA did not address or provide for such calculations. Living here, you might better understand how much "signal sharing" occurs. It used to be you could take a look at the BBM (Bureau of Broadcast Measurement, the Canadian rating service) and see that an aggregate of seven to ten per cent of the Canadian listening went to Buffalo radio stations.
-9-
From what I understand, CHWO is moving into the Classical 96 building in Toronto.
The best way to word this is "Their intended audience" will be Toronto.
At the CNE back in August, they were handing out information encouraging people to visit Rochester, but no mention of Buffalo at all.
The bigger frustration being that, even if there are corporate ads running that relate to both the American and Canadain listener, the problem is, the Cdn division of a company is usually seperate from the American division...seperate budgets etc...
Encouraging people to enjoy something as simple as a select brand of tea, for example may only be present because the source advertising believes there are enough listeners in their market to draw attention to their product locally,(or respectfully, nationally) rather than internationally.
Tea brand Canada, vs Tea brand USA, same company, two different advertising budgets that may or may not be intended for two different markets, even if the exact same product is available both markets.
The best way to word this is "Their intended audience" will be Toronto.
At the CNE back in August, they were handing out information encouraging people to visit Rochester, but no mention of Buffalo at all.
The bigger frustration being that, even if there are corporate ads running that relate to both the American and Canadain listener, the problem is, the Cdn division of a company is usually seperate from the American division...seperate budgets etc...
Encouraging people to enjoy something as simple as a select brand of tea, for example may only be present because the source advertising believes there are enough listeners in their market to draw attention to their product locally,(or respectfully, nationally) rather than internationally.
Tea brand Canada, vs Tea brand USA, same company, two different advertising budgets that may or may not be intended for two different markets, even if the exact same product is available both markets.
C
chuckydoll
Guest
There's another good reason why AM 740 will not pitch Buffalo advertisers: The IRS won't allow US companies to deduct the cost of advertising in Canadian media for tax purposes.
A ferry used to run between Toronto and Rochester but it shut down 2 years ago.
Yeziknoradio said:
A ferry used to run between Toronto and Rochester but it shut down 2 years ago.
Tell us something we DON'T know. The Rochester contingent (particularly Mark Giardina) can give you all the details about the Rochester-Toronto ferry.
I'll only say it wasn't the attraction its owners thought it would be. The trip took too long and people prefered driving to Niagara Falls or Lewiston to take the Rainbow or Lewiston-Queenston bridges to Canada and the QEW ("Queen E") to Toronto.
The other negative issue regarding the R-T ferry is that it docked in the middle of an industrial zone on the Toronto side. Horrible location for disembarking. And then there was the escalating cost of fuel.
Doomed.
-9-
I'll only say it wasn't the attraction its owners thought it would be. The trip took too long and people prefered driving to Niagara Falls or Lewiston to take the Rainbow or Lewiston-Queenston bridges to Canada and the QEW ("Queen E") to Toronto.
The other negative issue regarding the R-T ferry is that it docked in the middle of an industrial zone on the Toronto side. Horrible location for disembarking. And then there was the escalating cost of fuel.
Doomed.
-9-
At the risk of going way off-topic, no, we over here in Rochester most certainly did NOT prefer driving over the Lewiston-Queenston bridge and taking the QEW - especially as the crossing delays at the border and the traffic on the QEW/Gardiner have become ever worse. I've been avoiding making THAT trip as much as possible since the ferry stopped running.
Pretty much anyone who actually rode the ferry loved it. What doomed it was a combination of the crooks who were running it (and who have literally fled the country after fleecing the city), a boat that was much bigger than it should have been, and the general negative attitude of too many in greater Rochester towards anything that might actually smell like progress. (I hold the local rag's editorial page in particular contempt on that account, for their decision to keep printing a relentless drumbeat of letters that could be summarized as "I hope it sinks," thus encouraging further rounds of equally ignorant letter-writing and further feeding the negativity.)
Hmmm...how to get back on topic? Ah yes - the radio reception from the boat was darned nice while it was running, and there was a good view of the CHIN and CHKT towers on Toronto Island as it pulled into the harbo(u)r...
Pretty much anyone who actually rode the ferry loved it. What doomed it was a combination of the crooks who were running it (and who have literally fled the country after fleecing the city), a boat that was much bigger than it should have been, and the general negative attitude of too many in greater Rochester towards anything that might actually smell like progress. (I hold the local rag's editorial page in particular contempt on that account, for their decision to keep printing a relentless drumbeat of letters that could be summarized as "I hope it sinks," thus encouraging further rounds of equally ignorant letter-writing and further feeding the negativity.)
Hmmm...how to get back on topic? Ah yes - the radio reception from the boat was darned nice while it was running, and there was a good view of the CHIN and CHKT towers on Toronto Island as it pulled into the harbo(u)r...
So then, a smaller boat-no frills, point a-point b deal. Ok...sounds good.
Now, as for Rochester, I brought it up because it was August of *This year* that they (CHWO) were encouraging people to visit Rochester.
I don't recall any mention of this infamous over sized boat, just merely the basic idea that Rochester is a nice place to vist.
I doubt they'd hand out old magazines from two years ago. I've forgotten what the content of those magazines were, but I do believe them to be providing current information speaking highly of why it's good to visit Rochester.
Note: CNE is the Canadian National Exhibition, and it exsists durring the last week or two of August and runs right up until Labour day in Toronto, Canada. The CNE grounds is where AM740 was handing out the information last August. (August 2007)
Now, as for Rochester, I brought it up because it was August of *This year* that they (CHWO) were encouraging people to visit Rochester.
I don't recall any mention of this infamous over sized boat, just merely the basic idea that Rochester is a nice place to vist.
I doubt they'd hand out old magazines from two years ago. I've forgotten what the content of those magazines were, but I do believe them to be providing current information speaking highly of why it's good to visit Rochester.
Note: CNE is the Canadian National Exhibition, and it exsists durring the last week or two of August and runs right up until Labour day in Toronto, Canada. The CNE grounds is where AM740 was handing out the information last August. (August 2007)
Yezi, Scott, 9... now that this has turned into the "Boat Thread," I just wanted to add that I saw brochures for the ferry to Toronto, made plans to drive to Rochester and take it to TO and in the week that I decided to take the trip and drive to Rochester, the ferry service was shut down. So, maybe I'M to blame. I didn't see the D&C editorials, but people that I spoke to in Rochester said the entire business plan was out of WACK (this is now a RADIO post) and the business-tourism counterparts in Toronto weren't as bullish on the venture as those in Rochester, which apparently sank (no pun intended) a lot of (public) money into the venture. Almost to a person, I was told "It was a good idea on paper, but... and in winter..." Nice to know Buffalo doesn't have a corner on this kind of monkey-business (which was the name of another boat that was the center of controversy, see Gary Hart and Donna Rice, circa 1988.)
A few days ago while I was listening to AM-740, I heard some featurette being sponsored by "the City of Rochester". Headlines or weather - something like that followed by an ad about Rochester museums, etc.
chuckydoll said:
I believe that was a "tit-for-tat" after the Canadians decided not to allow their businesses to deduct the cost of advertising on U.S. stations. It hasn't completely killed cross-border advertising in some places where there's a big population imbalance (Bellingham, Washington, for one) but I'm sure the effective 30% +/- rate increase hasn't helped.
I'll bet the exchange rate is another impediment to US businesses advertising on CHWO. The Canadian dollar has appreciated something like 30% against the US$ over the last seven years or so - today, it's actually worth *more* than the US$ - so tax consequences aside, there's still been an effective 30% rate increase for US businesses advertising on Canadian stations.
All good points, but I think we've drifted off-point here: if I'm understanding it correctly, the ads that are running on CHWO (and the other promotions CHWO is running off-air) aren't US advertisements aimed at US listeners via a Canadian station, as one might expect to hear on a "border blaster," past (CKLW) or present (CKEY). They're US tourism ads aimed at a Canadian audience, and the flip side to the exchange rate is that while the ads may cost more for the Rochester tourism folks to run, it now costs much, much less for the Canadian tourists to visit Rochester than it did a few years back.
Even without the ferry, I'd like to think that there are still compelling reasons for Canadians to come over Rochester way, and this American is all in favo(u)r of my local tourism officials doing whatever it takes to promote those reasons.
(Relevant quasi-broadcast content: it wasn't that many years ago - 2000, if memory serves - that I was riding up and down the escalators in the Eaton Centre doing standups for a series on RNews about the effects of the then-record-low Canadian dollar on the Rochester economy. 64 cents then...$1.03 now. Sheesh.)
Even without the ferry, I'd like to think that there are still compelling reasons for Canadians to come over Rochester way, and this American is all in favo(u)r of my local tourism officials doing whatever it takes to promote those reasons.
(Relevant quasi-broadcast content: it wasn't that many years ago - 2000, if memory serves - that I was riding up and down the escalators in the Eaton Centre doing standups for a series on RNews about the effects of the then-record-low Canadian dollar on the Rochester economy. 64 cents then...$1.03 now. Sheesh.)
Reaching Out For Canadian Dollars
An "investment" of $1 thousand in Canadian money seven years ago, would have returned a 39%, annualized at slightly more than 5% per year. That's far better than investing in some stocks, especially broadcast stocks.
Does the strong Candian dollar portend good things for border cities such as Buffalo? Drive through the Walden Galleria parking lot and check the number of Ontario license plates. Then take a look at the parking lots of nearby restuarants and hotels. Or, and check the amount of boxes, shopping bags and wrapping paper left in the lots by those who wear their purchases home. Aside from the trash, the stronger Canadian dollar may help Buffalo and Erie and Niagara Counties step out of their doldrums. One wonders if this windfall will spill over to Buffalo-Niagara Falls radio stations, not from Canadian advertisers but from more US businesses that want to reach Canadian ears.
Fybush said:
An "investment" of $1 thousand in Canadian money seven years ago, would have returned a 39%, annualized at slightly more than 5% per year. That's far better than investing in some stocks, especially broadcast stocks.
Does the strong Candian dollar portend good things for border cities such as Buffalo? Drive through the Walden Galleria parking lot and check the number of Ontario license plates. Then take a look at the parking lots of nearby restuarants and hotels. Or, and check the amount of boxes, shopping bags and wrapping paper left in the lots by those who wear their purchases home. Aside from the trash, the stronger Canadian dollar may help Buffalo and Erie and Niagara Counties step out of their doldrums. One wonders if this windfall will spill over to Buffalo-Niagara Falls radio stations, not from Canadian advertisers but from more US businesses that want to reach Canadian ears.
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