City vs. Suburban Translators

[davideduardo]

That is true as of today, however we should return to about 75-80% of people commuting to work, or the grocery store, or school, as you have stated in a different post. I like to be optimistic about that.

Historically, 1/3 of listening goes, each, to home, work and car. Now it is approaching 50% in cars.

Remember, in the top 48 PPM markets, "at work" and "in car" are listed together as the meter has no way of knowing if it is in a car or in a workplace.

As others have said, the main benefit would be for AM's who get stuck on tiny translators. Not everywhere can be a big Stratosphere Hotel to plop translators on. There are a lot of people who wants to let go of the AM band entirely. I don't necessarily think we should, but ironically, the best way to do that is to give AM's room on the FM band. On top of that, I actually imagine that a lot of public broadcasters would be among the first to move, so they can test out those reading services for the blind, and so on.

Remember, a translator is limited by all the other stations surrounding it on the dial.

 

[ZantennaG1]

Historically, 1/3 of listening goes, each, to home, work and car. Now it is approaching 50% in cars.

Remember, in the top 48 PPM markets, "at work" and "in car" are listed together as the meter has no way of knowing if it is in a car or in a workplace.

Thanks for the insight. I've been thinking about buying a PPM meter, and was wondering how ot worked.

Remember, a translator is limited by all the other stations surrounding it on the dial.

Agreed, because that was the point I was trying to get across. I think my post was a bit vague. Any new AM to FM assignments would be going on the expanded band only. In a medium sized community like mine, translators are sufficient, and all 4 AM stations use them. But, in a big city, basically this entire thread about NYC, translators just aren't that helpful.

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

I'm just fooling around here, but seriously, more room is worth the effort

No, it’s not though. Diluting the pie further isn’t going to help anyone, or effectively no one. The ad pie, or the donor pie depending on the circumstances, is just so big.

As a practical matter, this is a non-starter on multiple levels.

 

[ZantennaG1]

@gr8oldies and @Mikey Radio
Have a look at this thread, starting with CTListener's post. SXM and Streaming is not always reliable in mountainous terrain.

https://www.radiodiscussions.com/threads/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-hd-radio.719942/post-6481393

 

[gr8oldies]

@gr8oldies and @Mikey Radio
Have a look at this thread, starting with CTListener's post. SXM and Streaming is not always reliable in mountainous terrain.

https://www.radiodiscussions.com/threads/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-hd-radio.719942/post-6481393

Living near the Smoky Mountains, I'm aware of that.

 

[davideduardo]

Thanks for the insight. I've been thinking about buying a PPM meter, and was wondering how ot worked.

You can not "buy" a PPM meter. The participants are recruited by Nielsen who looks for a mirror sample of the market's characteristic.

Agreed, because that was the point I was trying to get across. I think my post was a bit vague. Any new AM to FM assignments would be going on the expanded band only. In a medium sized community like mine, translators are sufficient, and all 4 AM stations use them. But, in a big city, basically this entire thread about NYC, translators just aren't that helpful.

It's not going to happen, so it is not worth speculating about.

 

[ZantennaG1]

You can not "buy" a PPM meter. The participants are recruited by Nielsen who looks for a mirror sample of the market's characteristic.

Oh

It's not going to happen, so it is not worth speculating about.

Earth is almost never going to be hit by a gamma ray burst, or spiral into a black hole, I'll probably never win the lottery, and the Yellowstone Super-Volcano eruption keeps getting pushed back, but to scientists, it's worth speculating about.

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

Earth is almost never going to be hit by a gamma ray burst, or spiral into a black hole, I'll probably never win the lottery, and the Yellowstone Super-Volcano eruption keeps getting pushed back, but to scientists, it's worth speculating about.

we aren’t scientists in that sense, and those analogies are frankly irrelevant to the topic.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

For some reason, Abraham, I'm reminded of the updating old gag about a Lottery winnner from Reading PA who was a crack addict and planned 'no immediate change in his lifestyle'. On the walk to the car to redeeming his winning ticket, he was attacked by a shark. On his way out of the bank he found a mint Pound Puppy, got in his car, and heard on the radio that Hell had frozen over. And on his front doorstep got struck by lightning.
So you never know

All earnestness aside : I believe it was David Eduardo who once suggested that some countries have AM stations licensed even closer than the US's 4 kHz apart. And it might've been he who suggested that *FM* stations (plus .4 mHz suburbans?) also can be moved closer in frequency that the US licenses ..... and with no difference in interference?

(Sorry if I misquoted or misrepresented or misidentied those sources, David. All I know is that I read about the two major dial spectrums in that manner ....)

 

[ZantennaG1]

For some reason, Abraham, I'm reminded of the updating old gag about a Lottery winnner from Reading PA who was a crack addict and planned 'no immediate change in his lifestyle'. On the walk to the car to redeeming his winning ticket, he was attacked by a shark. On his way out of the bank he found a mint Pound Puppy, got in his car, and heard on the radio that Hell had frozen over. And on his front doorstep got struck by lightning.
So you never know

What a lucky stiff he was! And thank you for reminding me of that old addage. I had someone told me that you can depend on the essence of Change (along with the other two guarantees in life). There will always be change. But, when we get stuck in the status quo and resist change, the universe grinds it's gears.

All earnestness aside : I believe it was David Eduardo who once suggested that some countries have AM stations licensed even closer than the US's 4 kHz apart. And it might've been he whoul suggested that *FM* stations (plus .4 mHz suburbans?) also can be moved closer in frequency that the US licenses ..... and with no difference in interference?

(Sorry if I misquoted or misrepresented or misidentied those sources, David. All I know is that I read about the two major dial spectrums in that manner ....)

Interesting. I imagine it depends on the sensitivity of the radio, but such a thing does exist on shortwave. It's called narrow-band FM.

 

[davideduardo]

What a lucky stiff he was! And thank you for reminding me of that old addage. I had someone told me that you can depend on the essence of Change (along with the other two guarantees in life). There will always be change. But, when we get stuck in the status quo and resist change, the universe grinds it's gears.

Interesting. I imagine it depends on the sensitivity of the radio, but such a thing does exist on shortwave. It's called narrow-band FM.

In much if not most of Latin America, FMs can be assigned on second adjacents in the same city from the same transmitter site area if desired. And AMs can be assigned every 20 kHz, as exemplified by 690-710-730 used in Mexico City.

In all those cases, FM had the same 75 kHz=100% modulation bandwidth and AMs were not limited or restricted either.

 

[JH_Radio]

Oo so AM actually can sound better in Mexico then?
Also does this mean that 93.3 and 93.7 if could be asigned?
But what about WSTW?
I'm using this as an example.
How would that work say in Mexico?
Unless cities are much further apart so it wouldn't matter?
Thanks,
John

 

[ZantennaG1]

Oo so AM actually can sound better in Mexico then?

In David's example, there isn't quite enough space for any extravagant amounts of bandwidth, but under this plan, Mexico City should be able to get about 8 khz of total bandwith, which is better than the usual 3 to 6 we have right now.

Also does this mean that 93.3 and 93.7 if could be asigned?
But what about WSTW?

Yep, and don't forget about WIP 94.1!
Actually though, the Philly stations often only run 9 kw max, which looking at a Longley Rice map only means moderate strength of reception in Wilmington. But yes, theoretically, there could be a 93.3 Broadcasting on 93.7's tower. There would be some havoc on the FM band for a few miles near the tower in question. Here in Cheyenne, I have two translators Broadcasting 250 watts from the same tower. One of them is 97.1, the other is 97.5. It works out well, but in downtown, those two just screw up the band badly.

I'm using this as an example.
How would that work say in Mexico?
Unless cities are much further apart so it wouldn't matter?
Thanks,
John

I'm not quite sure what you are asking?

 

[JH_Radio]

In David's example, there isn't quite enough space for any extravagant amounts of bandwidth, but under this plan, Mexico City should be able to get about 8 khz of total bandwith, which is better than the usual 3 to 6 we have right now.

I was hoping more like 10 or 20HZ. oh well.

I'm not quite sure what you are asking?

I'll try to explain.
Say Mexico had two cities that were very close like Wilmington and Philadelphia.
Is David saying that 93.3 and 93.7 could have a signal in both cities ?
I'd think that would cause a lot of interfearence.
Unless both were very low power?
John
igngl

 

[ZantennaG1]

I was hoping more like 10 or 20HZ. oh well.

Me too. In order to get a desirable 10 khz audio, we would have to go with 15 khz spacing in Rural areas, and 30 in the same city. Like, if two cities were about 50 miles away from each other, City A would get 540 AM and 570 AM, whilst City B would get 555 AM and 585 AM. However, this would require a serious rework of the AM band, and losing some stations on an already crowded dial, or expanding the AM band, and the public consensus is a resounding no to any big changes right now.

I'll try to explain.
Say Mexico had two cities that were very close like Wilmington and Philadelphia.
Is David saying that 93.3 and 93.7 could have a signal in both cities ?
I'd think that would cause a lot of interfearence.
Unless both were very low power?
John
igngl

Yes they could. Again, the Philly stations are mostly 5-10 kw.

 

[davideduardo]

. But yes, theoretically, there could be a 93.3 Broadcasting on 93.7's tower. There would be some havoc on the FM band for a few miles near the tower in question.

An example of spacing with only one channel in between occurs in Ecuador. There, in Quito, there are stations in many cases ever other channel, and all are at the same site. All, due to height of nearly 1000 meters above the city, are limited to about 6 kw and none interfere with each other.

Example would be 95.1, 95.5 and 95.9 and so on.

 

[JH_Radio]

Now why couldn't this spacing work in the US?
Cars and home tuners and even DSP portables these days can seperate out alternate channels.
But our power is different tooo.