CKWS in Utica and Ilion

[jiminCT]

Just wondering if folks in those areas can receive CKWS out of Kingston, Ontario via antenna? If not does Time Warner pull it off a microwave link...or do they have an antenna at the head end?

 

[BobRoss]

I don't know about OTA reception in Utica... but I once read a long time ago (in the paper maybe?) that CKWS has been carried on cable in Rome and Utica since way back when cable first came to the area. (The furthest back I can remember would be New Channels in Rome; Harron in Utica.) The article specifically mentioned how New Channels tried to pull CKWS off the lineup at one point in the early/mid 80s, and so many people complained, New Channels actually kept it.

Since both cable companies were independent operations back then -- years before Time Warner or "fiberoptics" became commonplace for regional TV operations -- I would assume both New Channels and Harron brought CKWS in via antenna. While many people love CKWS (particularly for hockey and Olympics coverage), I don't think its presence on the lineup would be valuable enough for either cable company to invest in a microwave receiver. Likewise, CKWS would have had to erect a microwave transmitter, a cost that definitely would never be recouped. Just because more eyes can see the station doesn't mean those folks are going to patronize the businesses that advertise on CKWS. (Know anyone from Utica who bought their car at Gananoque Chevrolet? Me neither. )

Just to be sure my assumption wasn't going to result in egg on my face, I even checked Wikipedia and the CKWS website, and found nothing about microwave links into the US. (I'm not even sure if that would be legal, as it would need both FCC and CRTC approval.) But OTA is probably decent anyhow... the CKWS stick is on Wolfe Island. That's a clear shot due south over nothing but water to Oswego... and not too far over land to Watertown.

Now that Time Warner owns nearly every cable system in upstate New York, I'd imagine they could provide a better signal by bringing CKWS in OTA from Watertown, then fibering it to any other system that carries it. The question is, do they need to? Or is the OTA reception in Utica/Ilion good enough on its own? It actually very well may be. The CKWS website says the original tower was 825 feet in 1960, but after weather knocked it down in 1998, they replaced it with a 1000-foot tower. Wikipedia says they're at 325kW... compare that to the three major Syracuse stations with similar or shorter tower heights, and considerably lower power levels.

Oddly enough, as I was writing this, I flipped CKWS on just in time to catch the nightly sign-off. It's amazing how many stations let these things go horribly out of date, complete with "beauty shots" of various towns with cars that were obviously from the 1980s or earlier. Even the shots of the primary transmitter building looked like they were originally shot on 3/4" tape about 20 years ago.

 

[dustintv]

I envy those who can get Canadian channels! I know we got them on cable when I lived in Buffalo, and I know my friend whoose family owns a house at Sacketts Harbor gets them there, and in Plattsburgh they also get a French-CBC station on cable too. I miss watching CTV and CBC.

Odd Utica gets CKWS when neither Rochester nor Syracuse gets anything from Canada.

 

[jiminCT]

Time Warner in Oswego used to carry CKWS...which is an easy catch off the antenna. I looked at tvfool.com and it seem to indicate that CKWS is right on the fringe of the Utica-Rome area....so I'm guessing they had an antenna for it back long before Adelphia/Time Warner was running things up there. Its a very powerful station...which broadcasts off of a VERY flat Wolfe Island. Its been on cable in Ilion and UItica for ages. The only other think I coul think of is a microwave relay from either Oswego or Watertown...which was mentioned. Most of the towers from the Eastern Microwave days are not used much anymore for TV (WNYW, WWOR, WSBK, WIXT, WSTM, WPIX), but some of the towers are stlll up....dont know if they are used though. Any engineers out there care to chime in to tell us?


Off topic but...
Burlington and Plattsburgh used to pick up CBMT, CFCF, and CBC-french off of a microwave link....it went down to Montpelier as well. The reverse link sent WCAX, WPTZ, WVNY, WFFF, WCFE, and VPT all over Quebec...up to Chicoutimi and even out to the Gaspe Penninsula.

 

[chuckydoll]

I'm surprised CKWS-11 has been on Utica cable this long. Generally you don't find OTA signals from Canada on cable unless you're within 50 miles of the border.

Rochester? Locals on 8, 10 and 13 block 9 (Toronto), 11 (Kingston) and 12 (Peterborough). You may be able to pick up the CTV Ottawa relay on Ch. 6 from Desoronto, which is between Belleville and Kingston. Scott Fybush can confirm this.

Syracuse? Too far from the border, plus there's a local on 5 that blocks 6.

Also, "French-CBC" and "CBC-french" is officially called Radio-Canada.

 

[BobRoss]

I'm surprised CKWS-11 has been on Utica cable this long. Generally you don't find OTA signals from Canada on cable unless you're within 50 miles of the border.

CKWS' place on the lineup dates back to the days when cable companies in Rome and Utica were mostly just relaying OTA signals, and only had a handful of actual cable networks. This is back when TBS Superstation was still listed on the lineup as "WTBS Atlanta" and Nickelodeon signed off at 8PM. The cable companies probably took in CKWS simply because there weren't enough other channels to fill the entire lineup.

As I mentioned, there was a time when NewChannels tried to remove CKWS from the Rome lineup, and popular demand reversed that decision. CKWS doesn't have a ton of great stuff, but I think most people like it for two things: the NHL and the Olympics. The CBC offers certain hockey games that aren't easily found on US television, even on cable (at least not without paying extra). Even if the game is available on a US network, some folks prefer the Canadian announcers. And when it comes to the Olympics, the Canadians usually offer more live coverage, while NBC does a lot of tape-delay. In the days before NBC offered extra coverage on CNBC, MSNBC, USA, etc., CKWS was the alternative if you weren't interested in whatever event NBC was showing.

And today, with digital cable offering the capacity it does... there's really no pressing need to get rid of CKWS anymore. It's not like deleting CKWS would magically open up bandwidth for 30 more channels. And since CKWS isn't covered by "Must Carry" rules, the cable companies basically have a channel that "adds value" to the lineup, while the only expense is the antenna or microwave link bringing the signal into the head-end.

 

[tvlurker]

I'm surprised CKWS-11 has been on Utica cable this long. Generally you don't find OTA signals from Canada on cable unless you're within 50 miles of the border.

CKWS' place on the lineup dates back to the days when cable companies in Rome and Utica were mostly just relaying OTA signals, and only had a handful of actual cable networks.
...
And today, with digital cable offering the capacity it does... there's really no pressing need to get rid of CKWS anymore. It's not like deleting CKWS would magically open up bandwidth for 30 more channels. And since CKWS isn't covered by "Must Carry" rules, the cable companies basically have a channel that "adds value" to the lineup, while the only expense is the antenna or microwave link bringing the signal into the head-end.

Are there any rules that preclude cable comapnies from offering new cross-broder stations?

Up in the North Country, Time Warner offers CBC O&O CBOT, CTV O&O CJOH, and CBC affiliate CKWS. These stations all date from the 50s (1961 for CJOH). Why not A-Channel, CITY, or OMNI1/2 which broadcast from the Rogers Stick in the south end of Ottawa less than 30 miles away? Or TVO from Camp Fortune? Are the original stations only there because they are somehow grandfathered?

TVl
Ottawa

 

[BobRoss]

Are there any rules that preclude cable comapnies from offering new cross-broder stations?

No, I don't believe there are any rules precluding cable from adding new stations... but there aren't any rules requiring it, either. FCC Must Carry Rules only apply to local U.S.-based stations within the same market as the cable company.

However, cable companies usually avoid carrying multiple affiliates of the same network. I'm not too familiar with Canadian TV stations (since the only one offered here is CKWS; nothing to compare it with) but if a lot of the programming is the same, that could be why your cable company doesn't offer the other channels you mentioned. Of course, the best way to find out is to give them a call or send them an e-mail, to see what their "official response" is.

 

[tvlurker]

Are there any rules that preclude cable comapnies from offering new cross-broder stations?

No, I don't believe there are any rules precluding cable from adding new stations... but there aren't any rules requiring it, either. FCC Must Carry Rules only apply to local U.S.-based stations within the same market as the cable company.

However, cable companies usually avoid carrying multiple affiliates of the same network. I'm not too familiar with Canadian TV stations (since the only one offered here is CKWS; nothing to compare it with) but if a lot of the programming is the same, that could be why your cable company doesn't offer the other channels you mentioned. Of course, the best way to find out is to give them a call or send them an e-mail, to see what their "official response" is.

The duplication on the other channels is for the American programming. The most duplication, of course, is between the CBOT and CKWS stations already being carried, since they are both CBC stations. And TW is not carrying CBOT-DT in HD, which they might want to do come Olympics time (or right now for the NHL playoffs). But I suspect that most people in the North Country haven't noticed that the Ottawa TV market moved from 3 stations 35 years ago to 14 stations today. meantime, the American side of the border doesn't even have an OTA NBC affiliate -- but most NBC shows are carried among A-Channel, OMNI, Global, CITY, CTV, and CH/E!.

My interest is in getting TitanTV to list more stations in the EPG version of their guide. (All the stations are available in the web version, but the EPG version depends on DecisionMark's limited view of what is available OTA in a given market).

TVl

 

[jiminCT]

I'd imagine that CKWS (and CBOT and CJOH in the north country) probably give their stations away to Time Warner for minimal cost. Low cost promotional factor for those stations.

 

[fybush]

I'd imagine that CKWS (and CBOT and CJOH in the north country) probably give their stations away to Time Warner for minimal cost. Low cost promotional factor for those stations.

I'm pretty sure no money changes hands. I visited CKWS recently, and the engineer I talked to says they're pretty much hands-off where US cable systems are concerned - they don't provide any kind of direct feed or engineering support; if the US cable systems can pick them up off the air, that's great, but no special effort is made on the Canadian side to make that happen.

I think there's a copyright issue involved in new carriage of Canadian signals, at least those that carry programming that duplicates US stations (including, presumably, the sports rights that CBC has.) That's why most of the systems carrying Canadian signals have had them grandfathered in for decades, and why newer Canadian channels generally aren't carried here, even on close-to-the-border systems like Buffalo.

I wish we'd never lost CJOH here in Rochester!

 

[jiminCT]

CKWS for some odd reason carries Letterman at 11:30 along with WWNY. That is one of the main duplication issues.
Having said that...I'm not sure how the cable companies in the US deal with that.

 

[azumanga]

All depends on the system's local stations -- I heard that TW's Buffalo-area systems black out or sim-sub any CFTO programming that's also seen on the American networks.

 

[BobRoss]

CKWS also carries The Price is Right. For several years, TWC in the Rome area used to put up an ugly slate stating the program was being blocked out due to FCC SYNDEX laws. Haven't seen that one in a long time... as far as I can tell, the programming is never blocked anymore.

Comes in handy when CBS News breaks in with a Special Report about something stupid. Since CKWS isn't a real CBS affiliate, they don't have to switch over to the Special Report feed. So you can switch to CKWS and keep watching TPIR. But when CBS puts the Special Report over the main network feed (so it just "happens" without affiliates needing to switch), then you're out of luck.

Also handy: when CBS carries something like Wimbledon that will pre-empt the entire show. CKWS still manages to run TPIR... not sure if they're just running reruns they taped themselves, or if CBS offers the episodes via a separate feed for anyone who's not carrying Wimbledon.

 

[vibe]

Re: CKWS in Utica and Ilion; what about CKSH in Maine?

I know this is a NY board but we stayed in Brunswick ME (about 25 mi NE of Portland and a good 200 mi+ from a station in Sherbrooke Que that broadcast in French on channel 9. Was in the local TV listings as well. Only watched it or a minute; didn't really understand the language.