Classic Country?

[buster2]

On another post a small discussion began to develop on the viability of 96.3 keeping its Real Country format once the signal is upgraded to cover most of the Valley.

One poster said KMLE and KNIX would be too competitive for a "classic country" format to survive.

I wonder.

I'm not a country fan, but it seems that in a market of nearly 3 million, many of whom are country fans, there would at least be a profitable niche for classic country. A lot of folks still like Waylon, Merle Haggard, Dolly Parton, etc. and they won't hear them on KNIX or KMLE (at least not very often).

By way of comparison, classic rock attracts about a 3.5 share in the market. That's a very rough number based on KSLX's latest 12+ ratings as well as part of KDKB's numbers because they play older material mixed with newer stuff. That's not to mention the Peak and Mix, both of which play songs that go back decades. And, of course, so does KOOL.

So... If older songs in rock and pop attract an audience, why wouldn't older songs in country? These are some of the most memorable songs in music and country fans tend to be very loyal. It's not impossible that such a format could draw a 3.0 and make a profit.

Heck, if 96.3 doesn't keep the format, maybe someone else in town should.

(That'll be $800,000 for consulting fees.)

 

[Ed_Walker]

I don't know how effective/competitive the satellite/syndicated "Real Country" would be in Phoenix itself; but locally-done classic country in Albuquerque - as done by owner Univision is doing quite well up against two other country powerhouses. Check the Albuquerque numbers for KKRG at an appropriate site.

 

[michaelhagerty]

>
> So... If older songs in rock and pop attract an audience,
> why wouldn't older songs in country? These are some of the
> most memorable songs in music and country fans tend to be
> very loyal. It's not impossible that such a format could
> draw a 3.0 and make a profit.


It makes sense until you get to demographics. Rock's key appeal has been to people in their teens and 20s. Country, on the other hand, tends to be an adult format...and it was especially so before the Urban Cowboy mini-craze of the late 70s and early 80s made it hip to a segment of younger listeners.

If you're playing a 1970 rock hit, you're appealing to the 15 year old who heard it new...who's now 50. If you're playing a 1970 country hit, you're appealing to the 40 year old who heard it new....and that person's now 75.

Even if you lop off the entire decade of the 70s and call anything from the 80s "Classic Country", you're struggling to get that core listener under 60 years of age. A 3.0 is possible (KOY's had them), but probably not salable.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[johndavis]

> >
> > So... If older songs in rock and pop attract an audience,
> > why wouldn't older songs in country? These are some of
> the
> > most memorable songs in music and country fans tend to be
> > very loyal. It's not impossible that such a format could
> > draw a 3.0 and make a profit.
>
>
> It makes sense until you get to demographics. Rock's key
> appeal has been to people in their teens and 20s. Country,
> on the other hand, tends to be an adult format...and it was
> especially so before the Urban Cowboy mini-craze of the late
> 70s and early 80s made it hip to a segment of younger
> listeners.
>
> If you're playing a 1970 rock hit, you're appealing to the
> 15 year old who heard it new...who's now 50. If you're
> playing a 1970 country hit, you're appealing to the 40 year
> old who heard it new....and that person's now 75.
>
> Even if you lop off the entire decade of the 70s and call
> anything from the 80s "Classic Country", you're struggling
> to get that core listener under 60 years of age. A 3.0 is
> possible (KOY's had them), but probably not salable.
>
> ---Michael Hagerty
>

In Houston, Cox is essentially slicing KILT (now programmed by former KMLE PD Jeff Garrison) in two with top-40 country KKBQ (full market signal) and classic country KTHT (rimshot).

In KTHT's first book, it alone beat KILT 12+. From what I understand the combination of the two stations is making mincemeat of KILT (which is to Country in Houston what KNIX is to Phoenix) with KKBQ taking the young end and KTHT taking the upper end. It makes for a killer combo.

Owens didn't do too well trying to split off KMLE's young demos with KWCY, but perhaps KMLE could put a hurtin' on KNIX if it had a classic country partner?

I don't think you could live off the classic audience alone, but if you sold it combined with a younger country audience, you could eat pretty well.<P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>

 

[saladdressing]

There would seem to be much greater revenue potential at this point in time with other available formats such as AAA and Urban AC.

 

[MaidOfTheMist]

> > >
> > > So... If older songs in rock and pop attract an
> audience,
> > > why wouldn't older songs in country? These are some of
> > the
> > > most memorable songs in music and country fans tend to
> be
> > > very loyal. It's not impossible that such a format
> could
> > > draw a 3.0 and make a profit.
> >
> >
> > It makes sense until you get to demographics. Rock's key
> > appeal has been to people in their teens and 20s. Country,
>
> > on the other hand, tends to be an adult format...and it
> was
> > especially so before the Urban Cowboy mini-craze of the
> late
> > 70s and early 80s made it hip to a segment of younger
> > listeners.
> >
> > If you're playing a 1970 rock hit, you're appealing to the
>
> > 15 year old who heard it new...who's now 50. If you're
> > playing a 1970 country hit, you're appealing to the 40
> year
> > old who heard it new....and that person's now 75.
> >
> > Even if you lop off the entire decade of the 70s and call
> > anything from the 80s "Classic Country", you're struggling
>
> > to get that core listener under 60 years of age. A 3.0 is
> > possible (KOY's had them), but probably not salable.
> >
> > ---Michael Hagerty
> >
>
> In Houston, Cox is essentially slicing KILT (now programmed
> by former KMLE PD Jeff Garrison) in two with top-40 country
> KKBQ (full market signal) and classic country KTHT
> (rimshot).
>
> In KTHT's first book, it alone beat KILT 12+. From what I
> understand the combination of the two stations is making
> mincemeat of KILT (which is to Country in Houston what KNIX
> is to Phoenix) with KKBQ taking the young end and KTHT
> taking the upper end. It makes for a killer combo.
>
> Owens didn't do too well trying to split off KMLE's young
> demos with KWCY, but perhaps KMLE could put a hurtin' on
> KNIX if it had a classic country partner?
>
> I don't think you could live off the classic audience alone,
> but if you sold it combined with a younger country audience,
> you could eat pretty well.
>
.............Exactly. I feel the younger country audience is a huge untapped resource. A classic is a classic not because it is X amount of years old, but because it crosses demographics with it's appeal.

Look at the end of Johhny Cash's career. Look at Hank Williams III. Kid Rock. The whole trucker hat/white trash culture.

Play "classics" like Cash, Patsy Cline, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, mix in some current country, cut out the pop-country dixie chicks crap, add your Americana - Tom Petty, The Eagles, CCR, Mellencamp, a dash of Skynyrd and Black Oak Arkansas, top it off with some rockabilly (Elvis, anyone?) and you'll have a monster of a male audience.

A station like this could recover the hipness that KSLX once offered, not to mention steal listeners from all the rock and alternative stations.

Country is splintering for sure.



P.S. I have an extensive country and classic rock background. If anyone's ready to do this I want to work for you

 

[saladdressing]

I don't know. This is essentially the format of "Outlaw Country" on Sirius. Personally it's great, but it does seem to be one of the lower profile streams on Sirius.


> Play "classics" like Cash, Patsy Cline, Willie Nelson, Merle
> Haggard, mix in some current country, cut out the
> pop-country dixie chicks crap, add your Americana - Tom
> Petty, The Eagles, CCR, Mellencamp, a dash of Skynyrd and
> Black Oak Arkansas, top it off with some rockabilly (Elvis,
> anyone?) and you'll have a monster of a male audience.
>
> A station like this could recover the hipness that KSLX once
> offered, not to mention steal listeners from all the rock
> and alternative stations.

 

[Jay_F]

> I don't know. This is essentially the format of "Outlaw
> Country" on Sirius. Personally it's great, but it does seem
> to be one of the lower profile streams on Sirius.
>

There is an "Outlaw Country" in Tampa Bay. It's one of the lowest rated stations in the market, while it's sister station, mainstream country WQYK is ranked #2.

Male targeted country may seem like a good concept, but it's been tried a few times and always fails. Another example is a station in Charlotte NC that started off as a male country station and did poorly,today they are mainstream country and ranked #1.

I don't think the lifestyle group for an Outlaw country station is as large as some people think, plus many of the potential listeners are going to stick with rock/classic rock no matter what. On the other hand,I think that mainstream country has far wider appeal than it's critics give it credit for,outside of some of the largest coastal cities, the format is doing just fine.

Classic Vs. Outlaw country? I would say classic country. It could be used as a flanker (like it is in Houston). The audience might be a little too old, but at least (unlike Outlaw) there would be an audience.



>
> > Play "classics" like Cash, Patsy Cline, Willie Nelson,
> Merle
> > Haggard, mix in some current country, cut out the
> > pop-country dixie chicks crap, add your Americana - Tom
> > Petty, The Eagles, CCR, Mellencamp, a dash of Skynyrd and
> > Black Oak Arkansas, top it off with some rockabilly
> (Elvis,
> > anyone?) and you'll have a monster of a male audience.
> >
> > A station like this could recover the hipness that KSLX
> once
> > offered, not to mention steal listeners from all the rock
> > and alternative stations.
>

 

[johndavis]

> I don't think the lifestyle group for an Outlaw country
> station is as large as some people think, plus many of the
> potential listeners are going to stick with rock/classic
> rock no matter what. On the other hand,I think that
> mainstream country has far wider appeal than it's critics
> give it credit for,outside of some of the largest coastal
> cities, the format is doing just fine.

Critics like to call it Nash-trash, but people seem to dig Shania and Toby Keith just fine.<P ID="signature">______________
...co-moderator of the Satellite Radio, Phoenix, and San Diego boards...</P>

 

[MaidOfTheMist]

> There is an "Outlaw Country" in Tampa Bay. It's one of the
> lowest rated stations in the market, while it's sister
> station, mainstream country WQYK is ranked #2.
>
> Male targeted country may seem like a good concept, but it's
> been tried a few times and always fails. Another example is
> a station in Charlotte NC that started off as a male country
> station and did poorly,today they are mainstream country and
> ranked #1.
>
> I don't think the lifestyle group for an Outlaw country
> station is as large as some people think, plus many of th
> potential listeners are going to stick with rock/classic
> rock no matter what. On the other hand,I think that
> mainstream country has far wider appeal than it's critics
> give it credit for,outside of some of the largest coastal
> cities, the format is doing just fine.
>
> Classic Vs. Outlaw country? I would say classic country. It
> could be used as a flanker (like it is in Houston). The
> audience might be a little too old, but at least (unlike
> Outlaw) there would be an audience.


A Classic Country with "outlaw" weekends. That would be fun. Hopefully the format(s)will ripen over time.


Are there any country stations targeting women? Do they perform poorly also?

 

[Jay_F]

> > There is an "Outlaw Country" in Tampa Bay. It's one of the
>
> > lowest rated stations in the market, while it's sister
> > station, mainstream country WQYK is ranked #2.
> >
> > Male targeted country may seem like a good concept, but
> it's
> > been tried a few times and always fails. Another example
> is
> > a station in Charlotte NC that started off as a male
> country
> > station and did poorly,today they are mainstream country
> and
> > ranked #1.
> >
> > I don't think the lifestyle group for an Outlaw country
> > station is as large as some people think, plus many of th
> > potential listeners are going to stick with rock/classic
> > rock no matter what. On the other hand,I think that
> > mainstream country has far wider appeal than it's critics
> > give it credit for,outside of some of the largest coastal
> > cities, the format is doing just fine.
> >
> > Classic Vs. Outlaw country? I would say classic country.
> It
> > could be used as a flanker (like it is in Houston). The
> > audience might be a little too old, but at least (unlike
> > Outlaw) there would be an audience.
>
>
>
> A Classic Country with "outlaw" weekends. That would be fun.
> Hopefully the format(s)will ripen over time.
>

Or perhaps an outlaw specialty show every weekend.


> Are there any country stations targeting women? Do they
> perform poorly also?
>

It could be argued that the regular Country format targets women. I believe nationally the country audience is around 60% female and rising. Still, the country audience is not nearly as lopsided female like AC is.

I know some people think that country radio will start to fragment. I don't think it will. Country needs to stay a "big tent" format. If it frags, the audience for each individual fragmented country station would simply be too small to be successful.

 

[zumahans1]

Outlaw country - Americana - etc.

Coupla three points:

"Texas Country" does much better in Housrton and dallas than the commercial ratings show ... particularly in Houston, where Pacifica's KPFT plays roots country and rock that doesn't show on the commercial ratings.

XM's Cross Country rates fairly high in the XM market research.... although it plays practically no classic country. Not sure how Sirius's Outlaw Country channels does, though.

In some limited areas, like rural Texas and the KPIG Harley mamas/SF hippy-gone-to-seed/Santa Cruz alt-country triangle, this format sells well.

Finally, KPIG and KPFT have huge internet audiences. There's an untapped market that a class C rimshot in Wickenburg could tap if it were cool enough and marketed as such.

 

[wavelength]

> I don't know. This is essentially the format of "Outlaw
> Country" on Sirius. Personally it's great, but it does seem
> to be one of the lower profile streams on Sirius.
>
>
> > Play "classics" like Cash, Patsy Cline, Willie Nelson,
> Merle
> > Haggard, mix in some current country, cut out the
> > pop-country dixie chicks crap, add your Americana - Tom
> > Petty, The Eagles, CCR, Mellencamp, a dash of Skynyrd and
> > Black Oak Arkansas, top it off with some rockabilly
> (Elvis,
> > anyone?) and you'll have a monster of a male audience.
> >
> > A station like this could recover the hipness that KSLX
> once
> > offered, not to mention steal listeners from all the rock
> > and alternative stations.
>


There's plenty of people in their twenties and thirties who have discovered old country and they realize it's better than the garbage of today so you will have those listeners.

 

[desertv]

> > I don't know. This is essentially the format of "Outlaw
> > Country" on Sirius. Personally it's great, but it does
> seem
> > to be one of the lower profile streams on Sirius.
> >
> >
> > > Play "classics" like Cash, Patsy Cline, Willie Nelson,
> > Merle
> > > Haggard, mix in some current country, cut out the
> > > pop-country dixie chicks crap, add your Americana - Tom
> > > Petty, The Eagles, CCR, Mellencamp, a dash of Skynyrd
> and
> > > Black Oak Arkansas, top it off with some rockabilly
> > (Elvis,
> > > anyone?) and you'll have a monster of a male audience.
> > >
> > > A station like this could recover the hipness that KSLX
> > once
> > > offered, not to mention steal listeners from all the
> rock
> > > and alternative stations.
> >
>
>
> There's plenty of people in their twenties and
> thirties who have discovered old country and they realize
> it's better than the garbage of today so you will have those
> listeners.
>
We already have such a station...KRDE out of Globe (the Ride)

 

[dhett]

> Are there any country stations targeting women? Do they
> perform poorly also?

They do, but mostly because they barely have half the playlist. Sure, losing your job and getting drunk is inspiration enough, but a woman's relationship with her dog isn't quite the same a man's, and if her husband leaves her, well hey, fortunes of war - now the bed's all hers and she doesn't have to worry about falling into the toilet late at night.

Basically, you just took away almost half of country music right there. Unless his name was Earl, of course.

(ducks)