Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[PirateJohnny]

So, has anybody been listening?

I listened most of today and enjoyed it thoroughly. Lots of 60's and some songs I never hear. I'll keep listening!

I appreciate the kind feedback. I will only have the stream up this weekend for testing some processing settings. But I'll be back.

How are you dealing with royalty issues?

That matter is under investigation. What would suggest for a weekend and maybe a dozen listeners?

 

[davideduardo]

i live in the midsouth, and if you live here or have been down here you know that if you said you were drinking a "Coke" it could mean Dr. Pepper, Mountain dew, Pepsi,RC Cola, Root Beer, hell maybe even ice tea! "Coke" is the generic word down here for "Soft Drink" of any kind... and stations that play either Elvis or Aerosmith are playing "Oldies" for somebody... you can stick a feather in it and call it Macaroni, but people will call either an elvis or aerosmith tune an OLDIE.C'mon! they're just words, Oldies is a kind of format that features OLD MUSIC, depending on how old you are 90's hits are OLD.. PD's and consultants want to change people's thinking by calling it Classic Hits, but we know to ordinary people it will still be a COKE...

All fine and good. But you miss the point.

Most "classic hits" stations don't use that term on the air.

In fact, many of those that transitioned from a 60's oldies format still use, quite effectively, the "oldies" term on the air.

The "classic hits" term was created to fill in the format descriptor in the Arbitron SIP (Station Information Packet) for stations that moved into the 70's area, and for sales reasons did not want to be called "oldies" any more. "Oldies" at the agency level tended to make buyers think a station was out of demo, too old, and a risky buy. So they came up with a new term: classic hits.

This "name game" is no different than when the Jack type formats rolled out, the "Adult Hits". name had to be created. That is another format name that is recognized by buyers but which stations don't use on the air. And how many CHR stations have liners that say, "Podunk's best station for CHR is WPOD FM 97.3?" How many Adult Contemporary stations call themselves that? Know of any Mexican Regional station that refers to that "insider" term on the air?

Add in the fact that every website that publishes ratings data makes modifications to the "registered with Arbitron" format name or description, and you have a lot of terms being applied to stations, very few of which are used at all on the air.

 

[PirateJohnny]

So, has anybody been listening?

I listened most of today and enjoyed it thoroughly. Lots of 60's and some songs I never hear. I'll keep listening!

I appreciate the kind feedback. I will only have the stream up this weekend for testing some processing settings. But I'll be back.

How are you dealing with royalty issues?

That matter is under investigation. What would suggest for a weekend and maybe a dozen listeners?

And I'm certainly not doing this for profit. All cash flow is negative. I do it for my own entertainment and invite a small group to listen.

 

[michael hagerty]

So, has anybody been listening?

I listened most of today and enjoyed it thoroughly. Lots of 60's and some songs I never hear. I'll keep listening!

I appreciate the kind feedback. I will only have the stream up this weekend for testing some processing settings. But I'll be back.

How are you dealing with royalty issues?

That matter is under investigation. What would suggest for a weekend and maybe a dozen listeners?

And I'm certainly not doing this for profit. All cash flow is negative. I do it for my own entertainment and invite a small group to listen.

If you haven't, for your own protection, you should research that. Generally, the issue isn't how many people are listening, but whether you're making it available.

 

[cspotrun]

i live in the midsouth, and if you live here or have been down here you know that if you said you were drinking a "Coke" it could mean Dr. Pepper, Mountain dew, Pepsi,RC Cola, Root Beer, hell maybe even ice tea! "Coke" is the generic word down here for "Soft Drink" of any kind... and stations that play either Elvis or Aerosmith are playing "Oldies" for somebody... you can stick a feather in it and call it Macaroni, but people will call either an elvis or aerosmith tune an OLDIE.C'mon! they're just words, Oldies is a kind of format that features OLD MUSIC, depending on how old you are 90's hits are OLD.. PD's and consultants want to change people's thinking by calling it Classic Hits, but we know to ordinary people it will still be a COKE...

All fine and good. But you miss the point.

Most "classic hits" stations don't use that term on the air.

In fact, many of those that transitioned from a 60's oldies format still use, quite effectively, the "oldies" term on the air.

The "classic hits" term was created to fill in the format descriptor in the Arbitron SIP (Station Information Packet) for stations that moved into the 70's area, and for sales reasons did not want to be called "oldies" any more. "Oldies" at the agency level tended to make buyers think a station was out of demo, too old, and a risky buy. So they came up with a new term: classic hits.

This "name game" is no different than when the Jack type formats rolled out, the "Adult Hits". name had to be created. That is another format name that is recognized by buyers but which stations don't use on the air. And how many CHR stations have liners that say, "Podunk's best station for CHR is WPOD FM 97.3?" How many Adult Contemporary stations call themselves that? Know of any Mexican Regional station that refers to that "insider" term on the air?

Add in the fact that every website that publishes ratings data makes modifications to the "registered with Arbitron" format name or description, and you have a lot of terms being applied to stations, very few of which are used at all on the air.

i don't think anyone, agencies, listeners are fooled by any of this. "They" wanted to change the name of my station from "Oldies whatever" to SEVERAL DIFFERENT THINGS, WE SETTLED ON "The Greatest hits of All Time" i said OK, if it makes you sleep better at night,"we'll do the same things" and continue to do well, we DID, and i guess the "Suits" slept better at night knowing we stopped saying oldies. IT CHANGED nothing.
SO, WHATEVER..... i don't have a problem dropping the word Oldies for those who "Fret" over it.

 

[davideduardo]

i don't think anyone, agencies, listeners are fooled by any of this.

Again, you miss the point.

"Classic Hits" was offered as one of a fixed menu of format names or titles that Arbitron allows. Each station must pick one of the terms, the one that best defines the format. If a station attempts to self-define using a format name that is not the most precise, other stations can review the SIP (Station Information Packet) at myarbitron.com and protest to Arbitron.

The reason that "classic hits" was added to the list is that, back a bit in time, many "oldies" stations moved to a 70's core to be more appealing to sales demos. But by then, agency buyers were leery of the "oldies" format name, since it tended to point to very old demos. And there was a very big difference between "oldies" (60's core) and "classic hits" so a new term was added.

Similarly, when the Jacks and similar formats appeared, the term "Adult Hits" was developed to cover those "mile wide and an inch deep" formats that played from four or five decades.

What a station self-defines as on the air, for listeners, is irrelevant in this discussion. My point is that these terms are meant for ad buyers, particularly those who do not live in the market, so that they can get a general idea of the formats they are buying.

"They" wanted to change the name of my station from "Oldies whatever" to SEVERAL DIFFERENT THINGS, WE SETTLED ON "The Greatest hits of All Time" i said OK, if it makes you sleep better at night,"we'll do the same things" and continue to do well, we DID, and i guess the "Suits" slept better at night knowing we stopped saying oldies.

IT CHANGED nothing.
SO, WHATEVER..... i don't have a problem dropping the word Oldies for those who "Fret" over it.

Your example is an on-air positioning statement. You can change the name or positioner from "great gold" to "oldies" to "all time favorites" to "golden oldies" to.... but ad buyers simply want a simple term that broadly defines the kind of station they are considering. They don't really care what the station calls itself on the air.

 

[cspotrun]

i don't think anyone, agencies, listeners are fooled by any of this.

Again, you miss the point.

"Classic Hits" was offered as one of a fixed menu of format names or titles that Arbitron allows. Each station must pick one of the terms, the one that best defines the format. If a station attempts to self-define using a format name that is not the most precise, other stations can review the SIP (Station Information Packet) at myarbitron.com and protest to Arbitron.

The reason that "classic hits" was added to the list is that, back a bit in time, many "oldies" stations moved to a 70's core to be more appealing to sales demos. But by then, agency buyers were leery of the "oldies" format name, since it tended to point to very old demos. And there was a very big difference between "oldies" (60's core) and "classic hits" so a new term was added.

Similarly, when the Jacks and similar formats appeared, the term "Adult Hits" was developed to cover those "mile wide and an inch deep" formats that played from four or five decades.

What a station self-defines as on the air, for listeners, is irrelevant in this discussion. My point is that these terms are meant for ad buyers, particularly those who do not live in the market, so that they can get a general idea of the formats they are buying.

"They" wanted to change the name of my station from "Oldies whatever" to SEVERAL DIFFERENT THINGS, WE SETTLED ON "The Greatest hits of All Time" i said OK, if it makes you sleep better at night,"we'll do the same things" and continue to do well, we DID, and i guess the "Suits" slept better at night knowing we stopped saying oldies.

IT CHANGED nothing.
SO, WHATEVER..... i don't have a problem dropping the word Oldies for those who "Fret" over it.

Your example is an on-air positioning statement. You can change the name or positioner from "great gold" to "oldies" to "all time favorites" to "golden oldies" to.... but ad buyers simply want a simple term that broadly defines the kind of station they are considering. They don't really care what the station calls itself on the air.

some are actually using the term "Classic Hits"(what does it mean to an agency? anything? or Greatest hits of all time on the air, but after reading several years of your....on the subject, ad agencies see this format whatever its called as skewing older and they don't want to buy it...according to you. so in light of what you've been saying for years about older skewing stations and ad agencies, WHY are we playing word games? Why don't you make the case for buying ad time on a late 60's 70's-80's formatted station

 

[davideduardo]

some are actually using the term "Classic Hits"(what does it mean to an agency? anything? or Greatest hits of all time on the air, but after reading several years of your....on the subject, ad agencies see this format whatever its called as skewing older and they don't want to buy it...according to you. so in light of what you've been saying for years about older skewing stations and ad agencies, WHY are we playing word games? Why don't you make the case for buying ad time on a late 60's 70's-80's formatted station

As I said, what a station calls itself on the air and sells to its listeners is a matter unrelated to the marketing of a station to ad agencies (who are, in this specific case, the predominant users of Arbitron data).

Ad agency buyers at national and regional shops may have no idea what format a particular set of calls represents. Thus, Arbitron has a prepared list of a bunch of format descriptions stations may select from to have included in the sort option of "show formats" in the agency software.

In general, "oldies" is seen as skewing out of any of the demos agencies specify. "Classic hits" is seen as being 35-54 format, and thus desirable as part of a broad 25-54 buy.

And it's not a case of "or whatever it is called". Arbitron has a finite list of possible format descriptions. In the case of pop gold stations, it is either oldies or classic hits. Any station meeting the broad criteria of classic hits is not going to select the other option.

No case has to be made for a "classic hits" station. If it has decent numbers (agencies go only a certain number of stations deep on any buy) and meets the Cost Per Point (CPP) goal for the campaign based on in-demo ratings, then it will be considered for the buy... the rest is related to sales skills.

These format description terms are only related to what shows up in Arbitron subscriber software. It does not affect what a station calls the format on air, and does not even, generally affect how formats are listed in the online ratings sources like AllAcces.com et. al.

 

[KFodor]

We play 50's to 80's on the non-comm I program. We still use the term "oldies" in talk about the music, but slogan our station as "(area's) Greatest Hits."

No listener is bothered even in the slightest by this.

 

[cspotrun]

some are actually using the term "Classic Hits"(what does it mean to an agency? anything? or Greatest hits of all time on the air, but after reading several years of your....on the subject, ad agencies see this format whatever its called as skewing older and they don't want to buy it...according to you. so in light of what you've been saying for years about older skewing stations and ad agencies, WHY are we playing word games? Why don't you make the case for buying ad time on a late 60's 70's-80's formatted station

As I said, what a station calls itself on the air and sells to its listeners is a matter unrelated to the marketing of a station to ad agencies (who are, in this specific case, the predominant users of Arbitron data).

well then, tell the ad agencies your station is Hip-Hop and play connie francis records but tell listeners you are an oldies station and get those 18-24' ad buys from the agencies...! well THATS A PLAN!]

Ad agency buyers at national and regional shops may have no idea what format a particular set of calls represents. Thus, Arbitron has a prepared list of a bunch of format descriptions stations may select from to have included in the sort option of "show formats" in the agency software.
SEE ABOVE...
In general, "oldies" is seen as skewing out of any of the demos agencies specify. "Classic hits" is seen as being 35-54 format, and thus desirable as part of a broad 25-54 buy.



And it's not a case of "or whatever it is called". Arbitron has a finite list of possible format descriptions. In the case of pop gold stations, it is either oldies or classic hits. Any station meeting the broad criteria of classic hits is not going to select the other option.

No case has to be made for a "classic hits" station. If it has decent numbers (agencies go only a certain number of stations deep on any buy) and meets the Cost Per Point (CPP) goal for the campaign based on in-demo ratings, then it will be considered for the buy... the rest is related to sales skills.

WELL DAVID, if you would stick to that rationale in the future about classic hits or stations that play late 60's-70's80's hits instead of what i have percieved over the past few years as BASHING the format and the demographics, we could actually agree on something...


These format description terms are only related to what shows up in Arbitron subscriber software. It does not affect what a station calls the format on air, and does not even, generally affect how formats are listed in the online ratings sources like AllAcces.com et. al.

 

[PirateJohnny]

Hippie Radio 94.5 in Nashville, TN spells it out plainly: "Radio for baby boomers".

 

[davideduardo]

As I said, what a station calls itself on the air and sells to its listeners is a matter unrelated to the marketing of a station to ad agencies (who are, in this specific case, the predominant users of Arbitron data).

Well then, tell the ad agencies your station is Hip-Hop and play connie francis records but tell listeners you are an oldies station and get those 18-24' ad buys from the agencies...! well THATS A PLAN!

Arbitron has a procedure for insuring that stations use the format descriptor that most closely fits the actual format of a radio station. It goes beyond voluntary compliance.

I've never seen a station listed in the Arbitron reports or on the SIP verification tool on the website that wasn't fundamentally accurate. In a few cases, you could say that there were two possibilities on the list, and the station might have picked a different one than you would have... but otherwise the definitions are quite accurate, since every station is asked to update every 3 months.

No case has to be made for a "classic hits" station. If it has decent numbers (agencies go only a certain number of stations deep on any buy) and meets the Cost Per Point (CPP) goal for the campaign based on in-demo ratings, then it will be considered for the buy... the rest is related to sales skills.

WELL DAVID, if you would stick to that rationale in the future about classic hits or stations that play late 60's-70's80's hits instead of what i have percieved over the past few years as BASHING the format and the demographics, we could actually agree on something...

I do not "bash" any format. But the fact that oldies, outside of some smaller and totally non-transactional markets, is not a viable format is obvious. It's obvious because operators of all kinds have dropped it. Operators ranging from the names "we love to hate" to smaller radio companies of the kind some here wish we had more of.

Saying that CRT picture tubes are no longer viable is hardly offensive. Why should saying that 60's core oldies is no longer viable be considered "bashing"?

And, besides, it's kinda' had to bash a format that I program or have programmed in half of the top 10 markets.

 

[landtuna]

Saying that CRT picture tubes are no longer viable is hardly offensive.

Except that it is hardly true. Viable = capable of working, functioning.

Why should saying that 60's core oldies is no longer viable be considered "bashing"?

Perhaps not "bashing" but, again, untrue. There are quite a few genuine oldies outlets still operating and making money. Perhaps not in the top markets but radio doesn't live in the top markets only, does it?

 

[cspotrun]

No case has to be made for a "classic hits" station. If it has decent numbers (agencies go only a certain number of stations deep on any buy) and meets the Cost Per Point (CPP) goal for the campaign based on in-demo ratings, then it will be considered for the buy... the rest is related to sales skills.

there's nothing wrong with that statement, but then you STEP in it with your NONSENSE about it not being a viable format....SHUT UP while you are ahead.

WELL DAVID, if you would stick to that rationale in the future about classic hits or stations that play late 60's-70's80's hits instead of what i have percieved over the past few years as BASHING the format and the demographics, we could actually agree on something...

I do not "bash" any format. But the fact that oldies, outside of some smaller and totally non-transactional markets, is not a viable format is obvious. It's obvious because operators of all kinds have dropped it. Operators ranging from the names "we love to hate" to smaller radio companies of the kind some here wish we had more of.

well david, that is a not only a lie but a damn lie, what about cbs-fm in NYC, 2 Classic Hits stations in Chicago, kearth in L.A. then there's Minneapolis, cleveland, pittsburgh,kansas city, Denver, Phoenix, las vegas, do i have to list them all to prove it to you? & everyone?

Saying that CRT picture tubes are no longer viable is hardly offensive. Why should saying that 60's core oldies is no longer viable be considered "bashing"?

because its not true! the only thing not viable is your mistaken position.

And, besides, it's kinda' had to bash a format that I program or have programmed in half of the top 10 markets.

and what a fine programmer you must be when you don't have a passion for the format or even believe in it! Please Get out of programming & radio, and leave the programming of these stations to those who BELIEVE & Love It. i wish i knew who you really were, so i could run as far away as i could, whenever your name would be connected to a 60's-70's-80's radio station, that i might have anything to do with.


[/quote]

 

[michael hagerty]

No case has to be made for a "classic hits" station. If it has decent numbers (agencies go only a certain number of stations deep on any buy) and meets the Cost Per Point (CPP) goal for the campaign based on in-demo ratings, then it will be considered for the buy... the rest is related to sales skills.

there's nothing wrong with that statement, but then you STEP in it with your NONSENSE about it not being a viable format....SHUT UP while you are ahead.

WELL DAVID, if you would stick to that rationale in the future about classic hits or stations that play late 60's-70's80's hits instead of what i have percieved over the past few years as BASHING the format and the demographics, we could actually agree on something...

I do not "bash" any format. But the fact that oldies, outside of some smaller and totally non-transactional markets, is not a viable format is obvious. It's obvious because operators of all kinds have dropped it. Operators ranging from the names "we love to hate" to smaller radio companies of the kind some here wish we had more of.

well david, that is a not only a lie but a damn lie, what about cbs-fm in NYC, 2 Classic Hits stations in Chicago, kearth in L.A. then there's Minneapolis, cleveland, pittsburgh,kansas city, Denver, Phoenix, las vegas, do i have to list them all to prove it to you? & everyone?

Saying that CRT picture tubes are no longer viable is hardly offensive. Why should saying that 60's core oldies is no longer viable be considered "bashing"?

because its not true! the only thing not viable is your mistaken position.

And, besides, it's kinda' had to bash a format that I program or have programmed in half of the top 10 markets.

and what a fine programmer you must be when you don't have a passion for the format or even believe in it! Please Get out of programming & radio, and leave the programming of these stations to those who BELIEVE & Love It. i wish i knew who you really were, so i could run as far away as i could, whenever your name would be connected to a 60's-70's-80's radio station, that i might have anything to do with.

[/quote]

Why do I feel compelled to step in front of a buzzsaw?

KRTH plays 3 or 4 60s songs per hour. Most of the stations you cite are 70s-heavy.

David has never made a secret of his identity. He's David E. Gleason, has a resume that includes a half-century of very successful radio stations. I was reading about him in the trades 35 years ago. He knows his stuff, has no personal axes to grind, simply tells it like it is. I'm always astounded at the ferociousness of some of those who wish he was wrong.

 

[davideduardo]

I do not "bash" any format. But the fact that oldies, outside of some smaller and totally non-transactional markets, is not a viable format is obvious. It's obvious because operators of all kinds have dropped it. Operators ranging from the names "we love to hate" to smaller radio companies of the kind some here wish we had more of.

Well david, that is a not only a lie but a damn lie, what about cbs-fm in NYC, 2 Classic Hits stations in Chicago, kearth in L.A. then there's Minneapolis, cleveland, pittsburgh,kansas city, Denver, Phoenix, las vegas, do i have to list them all to prove it to you? & everyone?

You are listing CLASSIC HITS stations. KRTH is Classic Hits. WCBS-FM is Classic Hits. The two very weak-performing Chicago stations are forms of Classic Hits. KOOL-FM is Classic Hits. The amazingly successful, double digit WMJI in Cleveland is Classic Hits...

Those stations are, for the most part, very viable. But they are not, using accepted and standard industry terms, "oldies" stations.

Saying that CRT picture tubes are no longer viable is hardly offensive. Why should saying that 60's core oldies is no longer viable be considered "bashing"?

Because its not true! the only thing not viable is your mistaken position.

But, in rated markets, Oldies stations are not economically viable. Classic Hits stations are.

And, besides, it's kinda' had to bash a format that I program or have programmed in half of the top 10 markets.

And what a fine programmer you must be when you don't have a passion for the format or even believe in it!

I believe in Classic Hits... that is a gold based format centered on the 70's and including more 80's and no 60's as time goes by. I am very passionate about the format.

I have no ax to grind in regards to the hits of the 60's and even the ones of the 50's. But I know that their days as the core for a radio format are gone... due to economics and not the quality of the music itself.

i wish i knew who you really were

Gee, all you have ever had to do is click the link at the bottom of every one of my posts. It is no secret. I simply use my given names to post, sans the patronymic. That link has a bio page listed.

 

[oldies76]

Who Dat....we may disagree on finer details and methodologies (including myself on some issues) but David knows his stuff here. He has an extensive background and I've learned many things that were all unknowns before I began posting here a few years ago.

 

[PirateJohnny]

well david, that is a not only a lie but a damn lie, what about cbs-fm in NYC, 2 Classic Hits stations in Chicago, kearth in L.A. then there's Minneapolis, cleveland, pittsburgh,kansas city, Denver, Phoenix, las vegas, do i have to list them all to prove it to you? & everyone?

You want to call them Oldies, yet here you call them Classic Hits? Or am I not following your train of thought?

 

[semoochie]

It's almost like some people are reading a different forum! "Oldies" is 60s based, with some late 50s and early 70s. "Classic Hits" is 70s based, with decreasing 60s and increasing 80s. You wont hear "Rag Doll" followed by "My Girl" followed by "Peggy Sue" followed by "Hello, Goodbye" on a Classic Hits station!

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

It's almost like some people are reading a different forum! "Oldies" is 60s based, with some late 50s and early 70s. "Classic Hits" is 70s based, with decreasing 60s and increasing 80s. You wont hear "Rag Doll" followed by "My Girl" followed by "Peggy Sue" followed by "Hello, Goodbye" on a Classic Hits station!

True, but you can hear some mighty awful train wrecks on classic hits. Last night on KRTH, they played Heart's "Magic Man" then cut to the Isley Brothers "Twist And Shout" then back to the 80's with "We Got The Beat". Classic Hits, in my opinion, is almost too wide reaching.