Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[oldies76]

I am protesting that current FM music radio is abandoning the first and sometimes second generation of RnR music.

Count me in!!

 

[PirateJohnny]

...And you have to establish a repore with the listener - just as was done by the great DJ's of the past. One is not likely to be successful without the other.

And there ain't no way voice-tracking's gonna do that.

Back to the thread now.

 

[michael hagerty]

...And you have to establish a repore with the listener - just as was done by the great DJ's of the past. One is not likely to be successful without the other.

And there ain't no way voice-tracking's gonna do that.

Back to the thread now.

So...it would probably be awkward of me to mention that for the first five (and most successful) years of Bob Hamilton's run at KRTH, they were voice-tracked apart from London & Engelman's brief run in mornings. Yet during those years, KRTH was the #1 Adult Contemporary station in L.A. and that in all but the first and fifth year, KRTH also beat every Top 40 in the market.

 

[michael hagerty]

May as well just get the others out of the way now...

KNX-FM, a station that engendered a loyal following and Top 10 ratings in the 70s, was voicetracked.

Wolfman Jack recorded his XERB shows a day in advance, but never disclosed it, making his "I'll get it right on for you" on-air requests obviously bogus...especially when callers heard themselves 24 hours later...but you can't tell me Wolf didn't make a connection.

There was nothing the jocks at KLOS, which toppled KHJ's reign in teens and young adults, said or did on the air that couldn't have been tracked first (archival KMET was tracked in all but afternoon drive for its first three years as an album rocker).

Lohman and Barkley and most of the KMPC personalities tracked their weekend shows. You couldn't tell.

Here in Phoenix, Steve Goddard on KOOL is on for five hours every afternoon. One of those hours is tracked the day before. You'd never know it by listening.

Tracking is a technology (and not an especially new one). It's how you do it that determines whether it sounds good or bad and whether it impedes a connection with the listener.

 

[michael hagerty]

Do you really think a 17-year old girl isn't affected when she hears "Love Me Tender" these days?

When it comes to romantic ballads and young women, the singer matters as much as the song. Donny Osmond made a lot of money once his voice changed doing fairly faithful covers of songs like "Twelfth Of Never" because 1973 teen girls didn't want to picture 38-year old Johnny Mathis singing it to them.

Elvis? No disrespect from me, but I guarantee you a significant portion of today's females 13-24 would have the following reaction:

"Ewwwwwww!!!! Creep old fat dead guy! Ewwwwwww!"

Now, take "Love Me Tender" and put it in the hands of a modern-day heartthrob and you might have a hit on your hands. The basic song is solid.

But let's face it...Elvis sold a lot of copies of that in '56 based on his looks and sex appeal. If it had been Bing Crosby's record that year (or if Elvis looked like he looked in '76), we might not know the song today.

 

[landtuna]

Tracking is a technology (and not an especially new one). It's how you do it that determines whether it sounds good or bad and whether it impedes a connection with the listener.

Quite right and I would disagree that VT is ordinarily bad. If done correctly the DJ's personality can still come through - just like watching an old favorite movie - you know the actors aren't live (some are not even alive) yet you still enjoy them.

The difference between an iPod and real live radio. Most humans want a human connection from time to time.

 

[landtuna]

When it comes to romantic ballads and young women, the singer matters as much as the song. Donny Osmond made a lot of money once his voice changed doing fairly faithful covers of songs like "Twelfth Of Never" because 1973 teen girls didn't want to picture 38-year old Johnny Mathis singing it to them.

I am not a teen nor am I female so I won't claim to know how they feel but I have seen the results. In '73 I was dating and the one thing that was guaranteed to put them in the "right" mood was a Mathis record. His Christmas albums worked even better.

Elvis? No disrespect from me, but I guarantee you a significant portion of today's females 13-24 would have the following reaction:

"Ewwwwwww!!!! Creep old fat dead guy! Ewwwwwww!"

Now, take "Love Me Tender" and put it in the hands of a modern-day heartthrob and you might have a hit on your hands. The basic song is solid.

I have two daughters who both turn to jelly when Elvis sings that. He was not alive when they were born and AFAIK have never seen him in concert or theatrical films. If Jimmy Durante sounded like Elvis and sang it they would still like it.

But let's face it...Elvis sold a lot of copies of that in '56 based on his looks and sex appeal. If it had been Bing Crosby's record that year (or if Elvis looked like he looked in '76), we might not know the song today.

Of course he did. So did Frankie Avalon. That was part of the package. But what if Rick Nelson had sung it? Or Donnie Osmond years later? Or David Cassidy? Most performers have to look the part and it's difficult to sell a love song looking like Frank Fontaine.

My wife and her girlfriend, no country bumpkins, went to see Elvis in concert in '75. No, he didn't look like he did in '57 and 18,000 people that saw him that night didn't care one bit.

 

[semoochie]

40 years ago, Beautiful Music stations had top ratings among women, 18-34 and young women still knew who Johnny Mathis was. Neither of these is still true and hasn't been for decades!

 

[firepoint525]

Guy was one of the first people I met when I came to town, and KZZP was a great station when he was programming it. But remember...music research goes back a long way and Guy was doing it (and as a consultant today, would never recommend you ignore it). None of the songs that broke on 'ZZP (UB40, Glenn Madieros, Billy Vera) were the result of Guy having a wild hair.
As to radio no longer being the sole source of exposure, yes, but it's more like early 80s (MTV is over 30!).

He actually had nothing to do with Billy Vera's "At This Moment" becoming a hit. That was due to its exposure on Family Ties. And even then, it wasn't released until a YEAR later! They almost waited too long before releasing that one!

It is my understanding that Zapoleon had something to do with Medeiros making it, but I did not know that until recently. He was definitely behind UB40's comeback with "Red Red Wine," at least indirectly.

And yes, radio hasn't really been relevant since the early '80s, but I was trying to give Guy some credit for (re)breaking a smattering of hits in the late '80s.

 

[firepoint525]

It's not radio's job to "expose younger listeners to the variety and innovation that was early RnR and will remain classic long after we are gone". Maybe my radio was broken that day, but I don't remember my favorite top 40 station when I was a teenager playing a whole lot of Benny Goodman, Andrews Sisters or Rudy Vallee. If we didn't want to hear those timeless classics mixed in with our music, what makes you think a teen today wants the Beach Boys or Cyrkle played next to Gaga or Bruno Mars?

This discussion is not about top 40 radio. It is about classic hits radio. You are on the wrong board. Of course we don't expect top 40 to play any of those. :

 

[allenv]

VT's is done correctly work fine..If done the same day by someone who can be topical informative & entertaining...That was why Wolfman worked and Dick Bartley and a few others who VT'ed worked..They were not that was and this is voice trackers. Voice tracking has a time and a place but should not dominate a station. Those who VT also have to check and double check what they do because a mistake is magnified when no one is there to fix it or make a funny out of it as a live jock would. I've heard some good VT's and some really really bad ones..

 

[michael hagerty]

Guy was one of the first people I met when I came to town, and KZZP was a great station when he was programming it. But remember...music research goes back a long way and Guy was doing it (and as a consultant today, would never recommend you ignore it). None of the songs that broke on 'ZZP (UB40, Glenn Madieros, Billy Vera) were the result of Guy having a wild hair.
As to radio no longer being the sole source of exposure, yes, but it's more like early 80s (MTV is over 30!).

He actually had nothing to do with Billy Vera's "At This Moment" becoming a hit. That was due to its exposure on Family Ties. And even then, it wasn't released until a YEAR later! They almost waited too long before releasing that one!

It is my understanding that Zapoleon had something to do with Medeiros making it, but I did not know that until recently. He was definitely behind UB40's comeback with "Red Red Wine," at least indirectly.

And yes, radio hasn't really been relevant since the early '80s, but I was trying to give Guy some credit for (re)breaking a smattering of hits in the late '80s.

Brain cramp. I wrote Billy Vera but meant Benny Mardones' "Into The Night". Bob Case was PD by then, but Guy was consulting and/or Nationwide's National PD.

If I recall correctly, Guy heard the Madeiros record on vacation in Hawaii, liked it, brought it home, tested it and boom.

Guy deserves credit, but you gotta understand, he's a pro. He's not going to take chances (even then) that would hurt a radio station. He has great ears, understands his audience and what they expect from their radio stations...finds songs he thinks they'll like...and tests them.

 

[landtuna]

40 years ago, Beautiful Music stations had top ratings among women, 18-34 and young women still knew who Johnny Mathis was. Neither of these is still true and hasn't been for decades!

Prior to the demise of KYOT as a "Smooth Jazz" station (although it was more skewed towards Beautiful Music) you could hear Johnny Mathis on a good FM signal in Phoenix. Now he is still played on KOY-AM but it's a lousy signal and doesn't cover a good portion of the market. Youngsters aren't going to go searching on AM so he and other Beautiful Music vocalists have disappeared off radio for the most part. That doesn't mean however that if the young women of today did manage somehow to hear him they wouldn't like him just as much as back in the day.

With the exception of commuters and those women "listening" at work (although it is really not active listening) I don't know of a single adult woman who listens to radio. So Mathis isn't the problem. Radio is.

 

[michael hagerty]

40 years ago, Beautiful Music stations had top ratings among women, 18-34 and young women still knew who Johnny Mathis was. Neither of these is still true and hasn't been for decades!

Prior to the demise of KYOT as a "Smooth Jazz" station (although it was more skewed towards Beautiful Music) you could hear Johnny Mathis on a good FM signal in Phoenix. Now he is still played on KOY-AM but it's a lousy signal and doesn't cover a good portion of the market. Youngsters aren't going to go searching on AM so he and other Beautiful Music vocalists have disappeared off radio for the most part. That doesn't mean however that if the young women of today did manage somehow to hear him they wouldn't like him just as much as back in the day.

With the exception of commuters and those women "listening" at work (although it is really not active listening) I don't know of a single adult woman who listens to radio. So Mathis isn't the problem. Radio is.

If KYOT played anything other than "Too Much, Too Little, Too Late" (a 1978 duet with Deniece Williams) from Mathis, I'm amazed.

Actually, if they played that in their final 5 years, I'm amazed. But I'll roll with it.

Also worth noting that while Smooth Jazz began in the mid-late 80s as a format aimed at 30-somethings, it attracted few new listeners over the years and kept the originals...meaning it ended up largely a format for 60-year old women.

 

[michael hagerty]

Johnny only had six Top ten singles in his career...3 in a row in 1957, one in 1962, one in 1963 and "Too Much, Too Little Too Late" in 1978.

Not only had it been 21 years since his last #1 and 15 years since his last Top 10...it had been 15 years since his last Top 30. And of the 34 singles he released between 1966 and 1978, only three made the Hot 100 at all (at #96, #75, and #54). Did a new generation "discover" Johnny after that #1 duet? No. He released 11 singles in the 14 years following "Too Much"...only three made the Hot 100...at #47, #38, and #81.

All that illustrates why you couldn't just dust off Johnny's version of "Twelfth Of Never" and expect to score (on the charts, not on a date, Landtuna) in 1973. Johnny took that song to #9. Donny Osmond hit #8 with it. His voice changed just in time.

 

[landtuna]

Also worth noting that while Smooth Jazz began in the mid-late 80s as a format aimed at 30-somethings, it attracted few new listeners over the years and kept the originals...meaning it ended up largely a format for 60-year old women.

I'll accept the 60-something but I am definitely not female!

There is nothing so soothing as coming home from a disastrous day at the salt mines, grabbing a handful of scotch and relaxing in your favorite easy chair listening to the sounds of the old Coyote.

 

[landtuna]

Johnny only had six Top ten singles in his career...3 in a row in 1957, one in 1962, one in 1963 and "Too Much, Too Little Too Late" in 1978.

Not only had it been 21 years since his last #1 and 15 years since his last Top 10...it had been 15 years since his last Top 30. And of the 34 singles he released between 1966 and 1978, only three made the Hot 100 at all (at #96, #75, and #54). Did a new generation "discover" Johnny after that #1 duet? No. He released 11 singles in the 14 years following "Too Much"...only three made the Hot 100...at #47, #38, and #81.

All that illustrates why you couldn't just dust off Johnny's version of "Twelfth Of Never" and expect to score (on the charts, not on a date, Landtuna) in 1973. Johnny took that song to #9. Donny Osmond hit #8 with it. His voice changed just in time.

I think you missed my point. The subject wasn't Johnny Mathis specifically but rather than a good song can come back and become popular again no matter the artists age or, in fact, the age of the listener.

I'm not suggesting that it would necessarily become as popular as the original, because obviously the artist would have been better known earlier, but a good song is a good song and a great artist remains that (so long as they know when to stop imitating their youth).

Someone not into idol worship (hello Donny Osmond fans) but appreciates a well-rendered song would be receptive to the original "12th Of Never" whereas a younger person who never heard Mathis might not be. In short, I don't think music appreciation is as simple as the age of the listener.

Another huge factor, of course, is the diversity of the population of the country now as compared to 1957 and the fragmentation of the music industry. And, artists like Mathis don't tend to put out "clowns on videotape" either so those impressed by purple hair and nose rings are probably not going to be interested.

 

[michael hagerty]

Also worth noting that while Smooth Jazz began in the mid-late 80s as a format aimed at 30-somethings, it attracted few new listeners over the years and kept the originals...meaning it ended up largely a format for 60-year old women.

I'll accept the 60-something but I am definitely not female!

There is nothing so soothing as coming home from a disastrous day at the salt mines, grabbing a handful of scotch and relaxing in your favorite easy chair listening to the sounds of the old Coyote.

I was a 30-something original back when The Wave launched in 1987...I liked it too...though I tend more toward real jazz rather than the smooth variety. Good news...KYOT HD2 is the smooth jazz, as well as nights on KOY (which, as we've discussed, in HD, sounds really nice).

 

[Oldbones]

This discussion is not about top 40 radio. It is about classic hits radio. You are on the wrong board. Of course we don't expect top 40 to play any of those. :

OK, substitute a 40something listener for a teen. Classic hits station for Top 40. They still want to hear "their" music, not something that was a hit before they were born.

Keep in mind that a 45 year old today was born in 1967 or 68, and graduated high school in the mid-80s. Madonna, Michael Jackson or Loverboy are going to be nostalgic to them, Gene Pitney or the Cyrkle are not (or the Jackson 5 for that matter).

 

[landtuna]

OK, substitute a 40something listener for a teen. Classic hits station for Top 40. They still want to hear "their" music, not something that was a hit before they were born.

If you radio types keep saying that it will become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Keep in mind that a 45 year old today was born in 1967 or 68, and graduated high school in the mid-80s. Madonna, Michael Jackson or Loverboy are going to be nostalgic to them, Gene Pitney or the Cyrkle are not (or the Jackson 5 for that matter).

Nostalgia is but one emotion when it comes to music. I'm guessing, high school reunions aside, most people like certain songs because they like them and not because they are reminded how small the back seat of that old Beetle was.

I'm guessing more people are reminded of MJ because he was weird and stupid than his musical prowess. Loverboy? Madonna? You've GOT to be kidding! :