Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[michael hagerty]

I find it narrow-minded to consider playing a Santana record "appealing to the Latinos".

Please don't misunderstand. What I said was that KRTH solicited Hispanic listeners by strategic placement of Spanish-language billboards. The Santana and Malo reference was that the only words in Spanish on the station were in those groups' lyrics. KRTH played them because they were hits.

 

[davideduardo]

But the tune was associated with "Star Wars." Wasn't that movie -- dubbed in Spanish -- a hit in Latin America, too, or didn't it cross over?

I think you mean 2001: A Space Oddysey. It's the Richard Strauss composition, adapted for that movie... which was not a big hit in Latin America. The movie was in '68, the Deodato version came in 72, if we are to believe the Internet.

The record never made it onto CHR radio in Latin America. By the late 60's, pop instrumentals were even less attractive in Latin America than they were becoming in the US.

I heard one station edit of the recording... by a Julliard grad with perfect pitch... at a station in PR. It was passable, but not perfect due to the changes in orchestration throughout the piece. Yet another reason not to play it.. instrumental, long, hard to edit, no "radio edit" from the label that was any good.

 

[RIN3GUY]

It seems that NO instrumentals age well, and seem to be passe, since the last one to reach #1 was in 1985 and they hardly seem to even make them anymore anyway. That would also explain why they are all but ignored today along with all "medley" hits, even Stars on 45, which reached #1.

Stations should play at least one song each hour that would have a "wow" factor or would jog the memory and be a refreshing break from the "same old 6 & 7" of predictable and wearisome rotation. It would also be nice if listeners had a simple way of providing feedback on station websites of the songs tested in this way. Stations should be able to add songs that their local listeners respond well to, not have imposed upon them some standardized corporate national playlist of just what "tests well." If they happen to get a lot of negative feedback to like, "Low Rider" by War or "Brick House" by the Commodores, they should be able to remove those songs at their discretion, or at least put them on a list to play much less often.

After multiple requests, I cannot get my local station (KJMK, Joplin Mo.) to play "Whatever Gets You Through the Night," a #1 hit by John Lennon, even once. And yet they will play his #3 hit, "Imagine" ad nauseum. What is up with that?? They play Gloria Gaynor's "I Will Survive" every single day, and yet won't play "Never Can Say Goodbye." Seems they are trying to run great songs into the ground, at the expense of equally fine songs by the same artist(s) that charted respectably well and still sound great.

Bottom line is, I read their playlist online every day, but I don't listen to the station half as much as I otherwise would, if they would just mix it up a little bit more and be more creative. Seems like they put themselves into an artificial, self-imposed straitjacket.

Oh, and why do C.H. stations consistently ignore these great Alice Cooper hits: "You & Me," "I Never Cry" & "How You Gonna See Me Now"? A/C stations won't play them because of the artist's persona, and Classic Rock stations won't play them because they are soft ballads. So they are just stuck in limbo!

Firepoint 525: Thanks for the compliment on my suggested playlist.

 

[michael hagerty]

As Michael explained, because the song is so long it likely did not get tested.

Time length should not be an issue at all. "Hey Jude" (7:11) and "American Pie" (8:33) are aired.

But yes, the classical nature of the song is what's keeping it off the air. But heck, that's what radio edits are for.

But the tune was associated with "Star Wars." Wasn't that movie -- dubbed in Spanish -- a hit in Latin America, too, or didn't it cross over?

"Also Sprach Zarathustra" was used in 2001: A Space Odyssey, not Star Wars.

That was 1968. Deodato's version was 5 years later. His was used, to somewhat comic effect, in several movies, beginning with "Being There" in 1979.

Frankly, it was a freak hit...a quasi-early-Euro-disco/jazz re-working of a classical piece on by an artist with no pop hit background, on a jazz label that had never had a hit single.

Deodato tried to repeat the formula (Classical or Big Band Tune, hook played faithfully, 6 minute extended instrumental jam with no apparent connection to the original melody, back to the hook to wrap up) over the next five years...Rhapsody In Blue, Moonlight Serenade, Take The A Train...but it never hit again.

CTi Records, meantime, started releasing and promoting all their jazz artists on 45, with no success.

And...radio edit? I've never heard a worse hatchet job than the 45 of "Also Sprach Zarathustra". Trouble is, that long jam and the tail out are virtually impossible to cut cleanly and attach to any point later in the record. I played the full 9 when I could and swallowed hard and played the 45 only when I had to. Of course, badly edited singles weren't totally uncommon in '73.

 

[oldies76]

Stations should play at least one song each hour that would have a "wow" factor or would jog the memory and be a refreshing break from the "same old 6 & 7" of predictable and wearisome rotation. It would also be nice if listeners had a simple way of providing feedback on station websites of the songs tested in this way. Stations should be able to add songs that their local listeners respond well to, not have imposed upon them some standardized corporate national playlist of just what "tests well." If they happen to get a lot of negative feedback to like, "Low Rider" by War or "Brick House" by the Commodores, they should be able to remove those songs at their discretion, or at least put them on a list to play much less often

One or two per hour would be just perfect....Mix those up with the tested hits.

After multiple requests, I cannot get my local station (KJMK, Joplin Mo.) to play "Whatever Gets You Through the Night," a #1 hit by John Lennon, even once. And yet they will play his #3 hit, "Imagine" ad nauseum. What is up with that?? They play Gloria Gaynor's "I Will Survive" every single day, and yet won't play "Never Can Say Goodbye." Seems they are trying to run great songs into the ground, at the expense of equally fine songs by the same artist(s) that charted respectably well and still sound great.

It's an unfortunate, frustrating aspect of radio today.. They are ignoring about 85-90% of all charted hits in the top 20 from the mid 60's through the mid 80's.

 

[CTListener]

Stations should play at least one song each hour that would have a "wow" factor or would jog the memory and be a refreshing break from the "same old 6 & 7" of predictable and wearisome rotation. It would also be nice if listeners had a simple way of providing feedback on station websites of the songs tested in this way. Stations should be able to add songs that their local listeners respond well to, not have imposed upon them some standardized corporate national playlist of just what "tests well." If they happen to get a lot of negative feedback to like, "Low Rider" by War or "Brick House" by the Commodores, they should be able to remove those songs at their discretion, or at least put them on a list to play much less often

One or two per hour would be just perfect....Mix those up with the tested hits.

After multiple requests, I cannot get my local station (KJMK, Joplin Mo.) to play "Whatever Gets You Through the Night," a #1 hit by John Lennon, even once. And yet they will play his #3 hit, "Imagine" ad nauseum. What is up with that?? They play Gloria Gaynor's "I Will Survive" every single day, and yet won't play "Never Can Say Goodbye." Seems they are trying to run great songs into the ground, at the expense of equally fine songs by the same artist(s) that charted respectably well and still sound great.

It's an unfortunate, frustrating aspect of radio today.. They are ignoring about 85-90% of all charted hits in the top 20 from the mid 60's through the mid 80's.

Do we really have to get yet another explanation of testing and statistics? Do we? :

 

[CTListener]

And...radio edit? I've never heard a worse hatchet job than the 45 of "Also Sprach Zarathustra". Trouble is, that long jam and the tail out are virtually impossible to cut cleanly and attach to any point later in the record. I played the full 9 when I could and swallowed hard and played the 45 only when I had to. Of course, badly edited singles weren't totally uncommon in '73.

The chopped "Let It Ride" (BTO) comes to mind immediately. Fortunately, the classic hits stations that I've heard that still play the song today use the full version.

 

[davideduardo]

One or two per hour would be just perfect....Mix those up with the tested hits.

That might be fine in a diary market... or an unrated one. But under the scrutiny of the PPM, you just can't do that. There is no reward, and there is punishment once or twice an hour.

It's an unfortunate, frustrating aspect of radio today.. They are ignoring about 85-90% of all charted hits in the top 20 from the mid 60's through the mid 80's.

There is a major market classic hits battle that got just about no press coverage. Yet it is one of the most decisive radio turn-arounds in recent years.

But the two stations were in Spanish.

In mid 2005, Clear Channel put a classic hits format on KEGL, and the station went to #1 in Dallas almost immediately. They played a library that was hard to count, but I estimated it at around 2,100 songs.

After putting up with this for about 6 months, HBC / Univision put the same format on KLNO, every bit as good a technical facility as KEGL. But KLNO played 800 songs, a product of some of the most extensive music testing done for a Spanish language station up to that point.

Within a couple of books, KEGL lost its #1 postion and KLNO had begun its rise to #1. By the end of the next year, KEGL did a transition with Christmas music and then went back to being an (English language) rock station.

Once KLNO established in listeners minds the fact that it played better songs, one after another, KEGL's far deeper library caused it to seem to play bad songs all the time.

Here, in the 5th largest US market, we had a one-on-one battle that had only a single point of differentiation... on station played about 1,300 bad songs and about 800 good ones, and the other station just played the good ones.

 

[davideduardo]

Do we really have to get yet another explanation of testing and statistics? Do we? :

I dunno'. The premise seemed to work for "Groundhog Day."

But I'm not Bill Murray, so I don't think another go at this would be entertaining.

 

[michael hagerty]

Stations should be able to add songs that their local listeners respond well to, not have imposed upon them some standardized corporate national playlist of just what "tests well." If they happen to get a lot of negative feedback to like, "Low Rider" by War or "Brick House" by the Commodores, they should be able to remove those songs at their discretion, or at least put them on a list to play much less often.

After multiple requests, I cannot get my local station (KJMK, Joplin Mo.) to play "Whatever Gets You Through the Night," a #1 hit by John Lennon, even once. And yet they will play his #3 hit, "Imagine" ad nauseum. What is up with that?? They play Gloria Gaynor's "I Will Survive" every single day, and yet won't play "Never Can Say Goodbye." Seems they are trying to run great songs into the ground, at the expense of equally fine songs by the same artist(s) that charted respectably well and still sound great.

Bottom line is, I read their playlist online every day, but I don't listen to the station half as much as I otherwise would, if they would just mix it up a little bit more and be more creative. Seems like they put themselves into an artificial, self-imposed straitjacket.

Oh, and why do C.H. stations consistently ignore these great Alice Cooper hits: "You & Me," "I Never Cry" & "How You Gonna See Me Now"? A/C stations won't play them because of the artist's persona, and Classic Rock stations won't play them because they are soft ballads. So they are just stuck in limbo.

Okay...I have to assume that you haven't read most of what's been written in this thread.

Music testing is done locally. It is a means of determining the tastes of local listeners and people the station wants to attract. It is infinitely more accurate than an online poll.

Most stations aren't handed a "corporate safe list". KJMK, a family-owned station that has no stations anywhere other than Joplin, certainly isn't. However, given that Joplin is market #231, it's possible they don't test due to cost and are simply being very conservative in their music choices.

Joplin is also not a good yardstick for judging the format in other markets (actually, no city is...because testing is local). I've heard every song you mention as ignored on either Classic Hits or Classic Rock here in Phoenix (Alice Cooper being a hometown boy and extremely accessible and friendly probably is a factor).

 

[michael hagerty]

Correction: Joplin is market #233.

The ratings for Joplin came out Friday. KJMK has gone from a 4.2 and 6th place (in a market with only 7 rated stations) a year ago as an AC to an 11.0 and third place as a Classic Hits station. It's nearest competitor, a Variety Hits station, has gone from a 9.6 to an 8.1 during the same period.

I'd say they're doing fine.

 

[michael hagerty]

Question regarding KRTH - the playlist and songs are extremely close to WCBS. So, my question is, would CBS provide some sort of general programming suggestions that KRTH and WCBS follow, or test or whatever, or would the testing at CBS stations be entirely independent and up to the PD's of the stations?

No. I've said it before. Testing is local. Has to be, or else it's of no value.

"Adequate Testing" - so Michael I must ask, do you feel that the songs played on Classic Hits stations around the nation are truely representative of what needs to be played? The big hits that are ignored you really feel are rightfully ignored because they failed testing in every market?

As we've seen, songs people on this board believe are ignored are getting played on some stations ("Afternoon Delight" and "Mr. Big Stuff" on KRTH, for example). I doubt any PD looks at other markets' research. It would be irrelevant at best, confusing at worst.

If a station is doing scientifically sound testing and implementing it properly, I believe they're doing the right thing in their market. If anything's wrong with either the testing or the implementation, it'll show up in declining ratings.

So, if, in Los Angeles, KRTH tests "MacArthur Park" by Richard Harris and it doesn't test well, they're simply meeting audience expectations by not airing it. To play it on the air after their listeners said they didn't want to hear it would be like cutting your toenails at the dinner table after your wife has asked you not to.

 

[semoochie]

It occurred to me that for several of my formative years, there was only one Top 40 station available. This means that I was not in the habit of changing stations, when something I wasn't crazy about came on because whatever it was, it had to be better than any alternative! As a result, I sat through things like "Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte" and gained SOME appreciation for just about anything that was targeted at me.

 

[davideduardo]

So, if, in Los Angeles, KRTH tests "MacArthur Park" by Richard Harris and it doesn't test well, they're simply meeting audience expectations by not airing it.

I wonder if the image of "MacArthur Park" for airplay in LA is affected by the fact that the real park is in a somewhat disreputable neighborhood and both the lake and the band shell areas are often used to dispose of "prekilled" bodies.

I came upon one such "item" when arriving at 4 AM to set up for a May 5 event for KHJ; there was a stiff in the entranceway to the bandshell. Every time I hear the song, that is the first image that comes to mind. The "cake" they left out in the rain had rigor mortis.

 

[michael hagerty]

It occurred to me that for several of my formative years, there was only one Top 40 station available. This means that I was not in the habit of changing stations, when something I wasn't crazy about came on because whatever it was, it had to be better than any alternative! As a result, I sat through things like "Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte" and gained SOME appreciation for just about anything that was targeted at me.

That's a very good point. But ask yourself, if there had been an alternative, would you have sat through "Hush, Hush" (one of my guaranteed button-pushers)?

And the "captive audience" experience isn't universal... take my hometown, Los Angeles. 35 years ago, there were four Top 40 stations (KHJ, KFI, KTNQ and KIQQ), one oldies station that played about 40% currents (KRLA), three Adult Contemporary stations that played 80-90% of what the Top 40s played (KMPC, KIIS-AM, KRTH), four R&B stations that shared about a third of their playlist with Top 40 (KKTT, KDAY, KACE, KJLH), two all-disco stations that shared about the same percentage (KIIS-FM and KUTE), two album rockers that were playing what were, in 1978, the real hits, and shared maybe 20% of their music with Top 40 (KMET and KLOS) and a mellow-rock station that shared maybe 15% (KNX-FM).

My biggest complaint in those days was that car radios didn't have enough pushbuttons.

 

[michael hagerty]

So, if, in Los Angeles, KRTH tests "MacArthur Park" by Richard Harris and it doesn't test well, they're simply meeting audience expectations by not airing it.

I wonder if the image of "MacArthur Park" for airplay in LA is affected by the fact that the real park is in a somewhat disreputable neighborhood and both the lake and the band shell areas are often used to dispose of "prekilled" bodies.

I came upon one such "item" when arriving at 4 AM to set up for a May 5 event for KHJ; there was a stiff in the entranceway to the bandshell. Every time I hear the song, that is the first image that comes to mind. The "cake" they left out in the rain had rigor mortis.

Ha! Great story!

No, David...MacArthur Park stopped getting airplay in Los Angeles long before Pico & Alvarado got really grim. It's another one of those songs that didn't make it to the recurrent or gold libraries, but pretty much faded away as soon as its chart run was over.

If there is a subconscious association for Angelenos who remember it when it was new, it's probably the RFK assassination, which happened about the same time and the landmarks of which (the Ambassador Hotel, the hospital) are all fairly close to MacArthur Park.

I'll take Randy Newman's "I Love L.A." anytime.

 

[firepoint525]

As Michael explained, because the song is so long it likely did not get tested.

Time length should not be an issue at all. "Hey Jude" (7:11) and "American Pie" (8:33) are aired.
But yes, the classical nature of the song is what's keeping it off the air. But heck, that's what radio edits are for.

As I once said on another thread, the effective length for "Hey Jude" is about six and a half minutes. After that, it has faded down to the point that you must move on to your next song, or you will have dead-air, and that is a definite tune-out among listeners. (Even on my Beatles 1 CD, the time set aside for "Hey Jude" on that track is just a second or two over seven minutes. Then it goes on to "Get Back."

 

[firepoint525]

Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds (LP cut)
Eight Days A Week (#1)
I Want To Hold Your Hand (#1)
A Hard Day's Night (#1)
I'm Happy Just To Dance With You (B-side #95)
She's A Woman (#4...technically B-Side to the #1 "I Feel Fine", but at #4, I count it as a two-sided hit, not a B-side)
I Saw Her Standing There (B-side to "I Want To Hold Your Hand" #14)
Help! (#1)
Day Tripper (#5...technically the B-side to "We Can Work It Out", but again, at #5, I count it as a two-sided hit)
Please Please Me (#3)
I'll Follow The Sun (LP cut)
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (LP cut)
All My Loving (#45)

Not bad, but I would certainly be left hungry for their later hits. Where is "Hey Jude," "Let It Be," or even "Yesterday"?

I have noticed that there has been an increase in popularity for "I Saw Her Standing There" in recent years, despite the fact that it dates back to their very first album. (And it has been 25 years since Tiffany's unfortunate "remake," so no link there.) The classic hits station here in Nashville (when we had one) played a live version of "I Saw Her Standing There," while not playing anything else that was that old. Interesting.

 

[firepoint525]

But the tune was associated with "Star Wars." Wasn't that movie -- dubbed in Spanish -- a hit in Latin America, too, or didn't it cross over?

Even the "Star Wars" theme (the version by the London Symphony Orchestra) was eclipsed in popularity by the disco version done by Meco.

 

[oldies76]

As I once said on another thread, the effective length for "Hey Jude" is about six and a half minutes. After that, it has faded down to the point that you must move on to your next song, or you will have dead-air, and that is a definite tune-out among listeners.

That's for sure...I think the max you can really hear on the 45 is up to 7:06 or 7:08 and by that time, you've raised your volume to try to hear the last few seconds....it's really faded...Wonder why Apple Records decided on the 7:11 time in the first place? Interesting!