Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[Biondi4Mayor]

As we've seen, songs people on this board believe are ignored are getting played on some stations ("Afternoon Delight" and "Mr. Big Stuff" on KRTH, for example). I doubt any PD looks at other markets' research. It would be irrelevant at best, confusing at worst.

For some reason, this has been confusing for some people. For the 4th time, the song I mentioned that receives no airplay is "Want Ads" - how that got mixed up last time I have no idea. I chose that one because it was a #1 hit both R&B and Pop wise.

"Afternoon Delight" was mentioned by Oldies as a surprise...not that he doesn't hear it.

And so we still come to the point where not even all legitimate hits are being tested.

I was reminded again by this just about a year ago. A lot of Classic Hits stations have been added more 80's - understandable. Artists like Prince, Madonna, and MJ have hit the playlist. Yet of all the BIG 80's hits - one crucial character was missing. Aside from a spin or two on an AC or Urban station - Whitney Houston was ignored from the bunch. Suddenly, she dies and all stations rush to add a few songs - again neglecting even some #1's. Now with that "fad" gone, airplay has once again been reduced. So, was Whitney getting tested? Sure WCBS may spin "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" and "How Will I Know" occasionly (they did at 3something this morning) AFTER the fact, but again a MAJOR artist was/is (in many areas) still getting ignored.

It took her death to get airplay, not testing.

Artists like "The Carpenters" are just ignored because of the assumption they can't work. But has "Please Mr. Postman" ever been tested? A #1 by one of the biggest groups of the 70's, with appeal and familiarity from fans of the Marvelettes and Beatles versions. Also, the song is perhaps their most upbeat - not their typical slow one. Don't forget the Carpenters suddenly become "cool" again during Christmas - to the nausiating point of too much in fact. But is it tested? Doubtful...it's assumed.

 

[CTListener]

For some reason, this has been confusing for some people. For the 4th time, the song I mentioned that receives no airplay is "Want Ads" - how that got mixed up last time I have no idea. I chose that one because it was a #1 hit both R&B and Pop wise.

"Afternoon Delight" was mentioned by Oldies as a surprise...not that he doesn't hear it.

And so we still come to the point where not even all legitimate hits are being tested.

I was reminded again by this just about a year ago. A lot of Classic Hits stations have been added more 80's - understandable. Artists like Prince, Madonna, and MJ have hit the playlist. Yet of all the BIG 80's hits - one crucial character was missing. Aside from a spin or two on an AC or Urban station - Whitney Houston was ignored from the bunch. Suddenly, she dies and all stations rush to add a few songs - again neglecting even some #1's. Now with that "fad" gone, airplay has once again been reduced. So, was Whitney getting tested? Sure WCBS may spin "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" and "How Will I Know" occasionly (they did at 3something this morning) AFTER the fact, but again a MAJOR artist was/is (in many areas) still getting ignored.

Artists like "The Carpenters" are just ignored because of the assumption they can't work. But has "Please Mr. Postman" ever been tested? A #1 by one of the biggest groups of the 70's, with appeal and familiarity from fans of the Marvelettes and Beatles versions. Also, the song is perhaps their most upbeat - not their typical slow one. Don't forget the Carpenters suddenly become "cool" again during Christmas - to the nausiating point of too much in fact. But is it tested? Doubtful...it's assumed.

Both the Marvelettes' and Beatles' versions of "Please Mr. Postman" are about 50 years old. Nobody in the money demo has any memory of them as current hits. The Carpenters' version is getting a bit long in the tooth to be an add, too, even if the test results aren't horrible. Most classic hits stations are mining the mid and late '80s for adds and dropping early and mid '70s titles in the process.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Both the Marvelettes' and Beatles' versions of "Please Mr. Postman" are about 50 years old. Nobody in the money demo has any memory of them as current hits. The Carpenters' version is getting a bit long in the tooth to be an add, too, even if the test results aren't horrible. Most classic hits stations are mining the mid and late '80s for adds and dropping early and mid '70s titles in the process.

I'd have to say from the Classic Hits stations I hear, you're about a decade off. They're about mid-late 70's centered now, adding 80's, dropping 60's. And still, the Whitney point is valid.

 

[michael hagerty]

As we've seen, songs people on this board believe are ignored are getting played on some stations ("Afternoon Delight" and "Mr. Big Stuff" on KRTH, for example). I doubt any PD looks at other markets' research. It would be irrelevant at best, confusing at worst.

"Afternoon Delight" was mentioned by Oldies as a surprise...not that he doesn't hear it.

And so we still come to the point where not even all legitimate hits are being tested.

I was reminded again by this just about a year ago. A lot of Classic Hits stations have been added more 80's - understandable. Artists like Prince, Madonna, and MJ have hit the playlist. Yet of all the BIG 80's hits - one crucial character was missing. Aside from a spin or two on an AC or Urban station - Whitney Houston was ignored from the bunch. Suddenly, she dies and all stations rush to add a few songs - again neglecting even some #1's. Now with that "fad" gone, airplay has once again been reduced. So, was Whitney getting tested? Sure WCBS may spin "I Wanna Dance With Somebody" and "How Will I Know" occasionly (they did at 3something this morning) AFTER the fact, but again a MAJOR artist was/is (in many areas) still getting ignored.

It took her death to get airplay, not testing.

Artists like "The Carpenters" are just ignored because of the assumption they can't work. But has "Please Mr. Postman" ever been tested? A #1 by one of the biggest groups of the 70's, with appeal and familiarity from fans of the Marvelettes and Beatles versions. Also, the song is perhaps their most upbeat - not their typical slow one. Don't forget the Carpenters suddenly become "cool" again during Christmas - to the nausiating point of too much in fact. But is it tested? Doubtful...it's assumed.

You assume.

Honestly, you don't know whether one, ten or a hundred Classic Hits stations are testing "Please Mr. Postman" every two years, every year, or every quarter.

You have no idea how Whitney was testing immediately before her death. But the stations most likely had been testing her and knew what effect the death of Michael Jackson (an equally controversial hitmaker whose public image drove his negatives up while he was alive) had on his music, so they rushed the best-testing of her songs back on the air...and I guarantee Whitney's music was tested at the very next session. If the airplay has slacked off, that's because Whitney's number didn't spike the way Michael's did.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

David: you made valid points about the differences in Latino communities.

That being said, there are numerous cities where instead of a "Spanish CH" an
Urban Classic Hits would work. Some of the best listening I can think of is WVAZ-Chicago
on weekends - R&B 50's -80's with the legendary Herb Kent.

The Black community is often another minority underserved in radio.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

The identity of the station hosting a test is kept secret. When people are contacted (phone, intercept, even internet) they are asked what stations they listen to and for how long, on average,each day.

Usually, they are started by asking, "what is your favorite station... the one you listen to the most?" and then they are asked about time spent listening. After that, they are asked "any other station" and so on until they run out.

Generally, if a person names your station among the top 3 and gives it enough TSL, the person will then be asked for demographic data to see if they fit in the test target. They may use the station, but be too young or too old and then not get invited.

Since the perception of time is different from the reality per the PPM, when a person says "two hours a day" we know that they listen over a two hour period, even if it may in reality be even less than 45 minutes real time. This is just a recruit "gate" to get only people who know and like either the station or the music.

Essentially - the old diary method. Guessing whether or not a person's word is accurate.

 

[oldies76]

Both the Marvelettes' and Beatles' versions of "Please Mr. Postman" are about 50 years old. Nobody in the money demo has any memory of them as current hits. The Carpenters' version is getting a bit long in the tooth to be an add, too, even if the test results aren't horrible. Most classic hits stations are mining the mid and late '80s for adds and dropping early and mid '70s titles in the process.

Yeah, but they CAN be played for nostalgic sake. So all the 60's music on KRTH (about 3-5 every hour still) is not in the money demo too, but they play them in 2013.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Wishing it weren't true gets you nowhere. Playing to what a minority of the audience wants will get you a minority of the audience. Winning stations understand how the majority uses radio, find a profitable niche in which to fit, research the expectations of the available audience for that niche, and relentlessly deliver exactly that.

A minority within the minority go online and say the system is broken and someone needs to help these poor bastards see the light by playing a stiff or two an hour..."What could it hurt?".

If a minority is willing to fight against the system of unwavering consultants, then that minority will likely spread the word to others when something is done to perfection. If we use this site in particular, we are also likely contributing on other media sites, or other social networking sites - we're not afraid to speak up. Perhaps you have somehow missed out on the senitiment for change in virtually all areas of life as of late.

A profitable niche format is exactly what should be done. These classic hits stations are going for these broad groups of people who will push the button at a moments notice (not for commercials of course : ), they should look elsewhere and develop a following, instead of a wide demo - shrinking or growing with every song.

 

[oldies76]

and I guarantee Whitney's music was tested at the very next session. If the airplay has slacked off, that's because Whitney's number didn't spike the way Michael's did.

Right, but a station must play the music of an artist after a death. You don't wait for those songs to be tested, you just play them. You play them that day after the annoucement and you play them intermittenly throughout the rest of the week. That goes for any classic hits artist. Same reason why CD sales and downloads spiked after the fact. Heck, even some of Whitney's music charted on Billboard the two weeks after her unfortunate death.

 

[davideduardo]

Essentially - the old diary method. Guessing whether or not a person's word is accurate.

The "old" diary method is used today in nearly 250 markets.

In recruiting respondents for a music test, the only interest is finding people in the right demographic group who indicate that they listen enough to your station (or its direct format competitors).

A test recruit is not intended to replace ratings... just to find people who listen enough to be familiar with the music and thus able to score the songs.

Once recruits arrive for a test, they are rescreened via a check-in procedure, and then their responses to demographic and listening questions are taken in the test. It is not unusual to have 5% or so "pay and send" respondents who are not allowed to get to the music part of a test.

There is not just one way to recruit. Often, we use music samples (in sets called "pods") and potential recruits listen to a number of pods, and if they like or love a certain number of them, they get invited to the test. In those cases, the station use question may not even be asked.

 

[michael hagerty]

Wishing it weren't true gets you nowhere. Playing to what a minority of the audience wants will get you a minority of the audience. Winning stations understand how the majority uses radio, find a profitable niche in which to fit, research the expectations of the available audience for that niche, and relentlessly deliver exactly that.

A minority within the minority go online and say the system is broken and someone needs to help these poor bastards see the light by playing a stiff or two an hour..."What could it hurt?".

A profitable niche format is exactly what should be done. These classic hits stations are going for these broad groups of people who will push the button at a moments notice (not for commercials of course : ), they should look elsewhere and develop a following, instead of a wide demo - shrinking or growing with every song.

What you're missing, Biondi, is that in any market of any significant size, the most successful station is running a niche format. The days of 20 and 30 shares are long gone. Stations dream of 5s and can make money with a 2 in the right demo.

They're ALL niche formats. Profitability comes from meeting the expectations of the majority of listeners in the target for that niche.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Wishing it weren't true gets you nowhere. Playing to what a minority of the audience wants will get you a minority of the audience. Winning stations understand how the majority uses radio, find a profitable niche in which to fit, research the expectations of the available audience for that niche, and relentlessly deliver exactly that.

A minority within the minority go online and say the system is broken and someone needs to help these poor bastards see the light by playing a stiff or two an hour..."What could it hurt?".

A profitable niche format is exactly what should be done. These classic hits stations are going for these broad groups of people who will push the button at a moments notice (not for commercials of course : ), they should look elsewhere and develop a following, instead of a wide demo - shrinking or growing with every song.

What you're missing, Biondi, is that in any market of any significant size, the most successful station is running a niche format. The days of 20 and 30 shares are long gone. Stations dream of 5s and can make money with a 2 in the right demo.

They're ALL niche formats. Profitability comes from meeting the expectations of the majority of listeners in the target for that niche.

Hardly in the way formats like AAA or Smooth Jazz are. Classic Hits are more wide reaching.

 

[michael hagerty]

They're ALL niche formats. Profitability comes from meeting the expectations of the majority of listeners in the target for that niche.

Hardly in the way formats like AAA or Smooth Jazz are. Classic Hits are more wide reaching.

These days, AAA and Smooth Jazz are unprofitable niches in most markets.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

They're ALL niche formats. Profitability comes from meeting the expectations of the majority of listeners in the target for that niche.

Hardly in the way formats like AAA or Smooth Jazz are. Classic Hits are more wide reaching.

These days, AAA and Smooth Jazz are unprofitable niches in most markets.

When a AAA station in the #3 market bills $18.4 Million, and a classic hits station with the playlist of songs you defend bills $7.8 million, then this unprofitable "niche" just made twice as much as you'd expect.

Smooth Jazz - Well everyone dumps it, or adds too much AC, so we'll never know.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

P.S. - That same AAA station's playlist is so widely varied, that come artists like Dinah Washington's birthday, her songs once again get airplay....you know for all those college students and younger ones that "aren't in that demo".

In fact, if you add up the second (and even smaller playlist) classic hits (leaning classic rock station) and combine billiing with the first station I mentioned, they still couldn't touch the AAA station.

 

[michael hagerty]

They're ALL niche formats. Profitability comes from meeting the expectations of the majority of listeners in the target for that niche.

Hardly in the way formats like AAA or Smooth Jazz are. Classic Hits are more wide reaching.

These days, AAA and Smooth Jazz are unprofitable niches in most markets.

When a AAA station in the #3 market bills $18.4 Million, and a classic hits station with the playlist of songs you defend bills $7.8 million, then this unprofitable "niche" just made twice as much as you'd expect.

Smooth Jazz - Well everyone dumps it, or adds too much AC, so we'll never know.

Okay, the AAA is WXRT.

I don't recall defending a playlist of songs other than to say that stations that conduct statistically accurate research and implement it properly are doing the right thing. Who we talking about?

Then we can have David break out the billing numbers.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

They're ALL niche formats. Profitability comes from meeting the expectations of the majority of listeners in the target for that niche.

Hardly in the way formats like AAA or Smooth Jazz are. Classic Hits are more wide reaching.

These days, AAA and Smooth Jazz are unprofitable niches in most markets.

When a AAA station in the #3 market bills $18.4 Million, and a classic hits station with the playlist of songs you defend bills $7.8 million, then this unprofitable "niche" just made twice as much as you'd expect.

Smooth Jazz - Well everyone dumps it, or adds too much AC, so we'll never know.

Okay, the AAA is WXRT.

I don't recall defending a playlist of songs other than to say that stations that conduct statistically accurate research and implement it properly are doing the right thing. Who we talking about?

Then we can have David break out the billing numbers.

WJMK - the Chicago's closest thing to KRTH - it follows all the rules you have defended, and plays all the songs you'd find just. Don't need David ---- they billed $7.8 million.

 

[davideduardo]

When a AAA station in the #3 market bills $18.4 Million, and a classic hits station with the playlist of songs you defend bills $7.8 million, then this unprofitable "niche" just made twice as much as you'd expect.

Where are your figures from? They don't match MK and they don't match BIA.

WXRT billed $25 million in 2005, and was under $15 million in 2011. That's off by a much larger percentage than the market, which was off by about 20% ($600 million to $487 million) for the same years.

Initial figures show Chicago off about 2% for 2012.

 

[michael hagerty]

They're ALL niche formats. Profitability comes from meeting the expectations of the majority of listeners in the target for that niche.

Hardly in the way formats like AAA or Smooth Jazz are. Classic Hits are more wide reaching.

These days, AAA and Smooth Jazz are unprofitable niches in most markets.

When a AAA station in the #3 market bills $18.4 Million, and a classic hits station with the playlist of songs you defend bills $7.8 million, then this unprofitable "niche" just made twice as much as you'd expect.

Smooth Jazz - Well everyone dumps it, or adds too much AC, so we'll never know.

Okay, the AAA is WXRT.

I don't recall defending a playlist of songs other than to say that stations that conduct statistically accurate research and implement it properly are doing the right thing. Who we talking about?

Then we can have David break out the billing numbers.

WJMK - the Chicago's closest thing to KRTH - it follows all the rules you have defended, and plays all the songs you'd find just. Don't need David ---- they billed $7.8 million.

And you know they follow the rules how?

The testing could be flawed.

The implementation of what is learned from the testing could be flawed.

And given there's a discrepancy in the WXRT billing figures, David, I'd love to hear the latest on WJMK.

Again, I don't know Chicago well, but wouldn't WLS-FM be comparable to KRTH, too? How's their billing? What's the combined billing for the two?

 

[davideduardo]

And given there's a discrepancy in the WXRT billing figures, David, I'd love to hear the latest on WJMK.

Again, I don't know Chicago well, but wouldn't WLS-FM be comparable to KRTH, too? How's their billing? What's the combined billing for the two?

WJMK did just under $10 in 2011.

BIA has not released data yet for 2012. And those of us with access to Miller Kaplan are under a nondisclosure and can't talk about what we may or may not know about 2012.

Chicago has two "classic hits" type stations, WLS-FM and WJMK. They seem to get about a 4.5 share total in 25-54. By comparison, KRTH gets something around high 2's and low 3's for the same general format type. CBS-FM in New York gets somewhere in the 5's. So each market seems to have a different percentage of partisans of the format.

But, returning to Chicago, we see that with two stations, the shares and the revenue are split. Nobody wins.