Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[michael hagerty]

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Between the years 1970-1989 Billboard logged 484 #1 hits, add the years 1964-1969 if you want for an additional 124 equalling 608. Don't trust Billboard?....Record World logged 498 in the same time frame before ceasing production in 1982.

If all #1's were tested in a 1000 song test, it would roughly take up half. Of course, other songs would be tested as well, far exceeding the amount of songs to reach the #1 benchmark. Therefore, there is not enough time, room, or money to accurately ensure all the hits are getting tested.

I trust Record World and Cash Box less than Billboard.

You had to be there.

Actually, in a 1000 song test (best split up over two days), if you tested all 608 #1s, you could still test hundreds of songs from the current playlist because....a chunk of those 608 #1s are currently being played.

More likely would be to split the unplayed #1s up and include them in the next four regular-sized quarterly tests. Which, for all I (and you) know, they do and have done.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

If she had lived another 10 years or so, her death probably would have been almost entirely ignored by radio. Her music would have aged out of the format by then. Seems like it was already headed that direction anyway.

Sorry, can't agree. If classic hits is moving more 80's heavy, then her songs are perfect for the mix. If she's aging out now, then all the Eagles, Bob Seager, and Journey records should have already exited.

Well, they almost ignored her anyway. I remember looking at the AC station's (her home format, btw) playlist a day or two after her death, and only seeing the occasional sprinkling of her songs in there. Another 10 years, and you wouldn't have even had that much. She didn't get anywhere near the airplay that Michael Jackson got right after his death, and she was nearly as big as he was, and during much of the same time frame.

Yeah, now we're on the same page. Largely ignored. Odd, for those desirable women demographics why 80's artists like her, Paula Abdul, or even lesser ones like Lisa Lisa or Laura Brannigan are either unplayed, or restricted to a song or two.

She absolutely is comparable to Micheal.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

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Between the years 1970-1989 Billboard logged 484 #1 hits, add the years 1964-1969 if you want for an additional 124 equalling 608. Don't trust Billboard?....Record World logged 498 in the same time frame before ceasing production in 1982.

If all #1's were tested in a 1000 song test, it would roughly take up half. Of course, other songs would be tested as well, far exceeding the amount of songs to reach the #1 benchmark. Therefore, there is not enough time, room, or money to accurately ensure all the hits are getting tested.

I trust Record World and Cash Box less than Billboard.

You had to be there.

Actually, in a 1000 song test (best split up over two days), if you tested all 608 #1s, you could still test hundreds of songs from the current playlist because....a chunk of those 608 #1s are currently being played.

More likely would be to split the unplayed #1s up and include them in the next four regular-sized quarterly tests. Which, for all I (and you) know, they do and have done.

"You Had To Be There" - did you work for one of them?

Running the averages on things like peak position, and chart length, essentially the number of songs peaking at numbers 2 & 3 add roughly (for arguement's sake) the same amount as #1's. Now you're at 1200 songs, and nothing below #3 (which obviously songs are getting played that didn't make it that high) would have room to test. Now there's no room for those perennial favorites like "Brown Eyed Girl" #10 - which read anything about that one, and you'll quickly see the disproportionately large number of plays it gets. Again, my exposure of tests was 2 examples of ANNUAL (not quarterly) testing of the PLAYLIST ONLY. IT'S WRONG, we all agree, BUT THEY USED IT.

Yes I (and you) know that SOME stations do multiple tests. HOWEVER, don't forget many of my arguements are based around 2 poorly crafted classic hits stations, BOTH OWNED BY MAJOR COMPANIES - who DON'T/OR DIDN'T do testing in this way. I've said that already, I've discussed my role in that already, so I won't repeat it. Maybe KRTH does, which I don't really know how KRTH became the central model, I've never listened to it, the same way (from what I've gathered) your exposure to the stations I have been discussing is limited if any.

 

[michael hagerty]

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Between the years 1970-1989 Billboard logged 484 #1 hits, add the years 1964-1969 if you want for an additional 124 equalling 608. Don't trust Billboard?....Record World logged 498 in the same time frame before ceasing production in 1982.

If all #1's were tested in a 1000 song test, it would roughly take up half. Of course, other songs would be tested as well, far exceeding the amount of songs to reach the #1 benchmark. Therefore, there is not enough time, room, or money to accurately ensure all the hits are getting tested.

I trust Record World and Cash Box less than Billboard.

You had to be there.

Actually, in a 1000 song test (best split up over two days), if you tested all 608 #1s, you could still test hundreds of songs from the current playlist because....a chunk of those 608 #1s are currently being played.

More likely would be to split the unplayed #1s up and include them in the next four regular-sized quarterly tests. Which, for all I (and you) know, they do and have done.

"You Had To Be There" - did you work for one of them?

Running the averages on things like peak position, and chart length, essentially the number of songs peaking at numbers 2 & 3 add roughly (for arguement's sake) the same amount as #1's. Now you're at 1200 songs, and nothing below #3 (which obviously songs are getting played that didn't make it that high) would have room to test. Now there's no room for those perennial favorites like "Brown Eyed Girl" #10 - which read anything about that one, and you'll quickly see the disproportionately large number of plays it gets. Again, my exposure of tests was 2 examples of ANNUAL (not quarterly) testing of the PLAYLIST ONLY. IT'S WRONG, we all agree, BUT THEY USED IT.

Yes I (and you) know that SOME stations do multiple tests. HOWEVER, don't forget many of my arguements are based around 2 poorly crafted classic hits stations, BOTH OWNED BY MAJOR COMPANIES - who DON'T/OR DIDN'T do testing in this way. I've said that already, I've discussed my role in that already, so I won't repeat it. Maybe KRTH does, which I don't really know how KRTH became the central model, I've never listened to it, the same way (from what I've gathered) your exposure to the stations I have been discussing is limited if any.

I worked with all three as a programmer from 1971-1981. Chart methodology between the three varied enorrmously (Cash Box focused heavily on juke box play). Of the three, Billboard's charts were considered the most credible, but David and I have already detailed how low that bar was.

I think it would surprise a lot of people on this board how little "Brown Eyed Girl" gets played in relation to other songs on classic hits stations today (your market may vary). But your perception (affected by atypical listening patterns) reinforces the belief.

As to the tests you participated in, True Oldies (a satellite-delivered syndicated format that aired 24/7 for a time on WLS-FM) did that. If WLS-FM as a standalone, locally programmed station isn't back to doing local auditorium testing, I'm stunned. And do you know the CBS classic hits in Chicago isn't, or are you guessing?

I have no exposure to your two local stations.

KRTH became a focus because it's been a punching bag on this board. Yet it's very successful. And when we examine the specific complaints about KRTH ("They don't play this." Oops, they do. "They never add music to their too-tight playlist." How'd they go from 300 songs to 800 in five years?), they tend to fall apart.

 

[michael hagerty]

If she had lived another 10 years or so, her death probably would have been almost entirely ignored by radio. Her music would have aged out of the format by then. Seems like it was already headed that direction anyway.

Sorry, can't agree. If classic hits is moving more 80's heavy, then her songs are perfect for the mix. If she's aging out now, then all the Eagles, Bob Seager, and Journey records should have already exited.

Well, they almost ignored her anyway. I remember looking at the AC station's (her home format, btw) playlist a day or two after her death, and only seeing the occasional sprinkling of her songs in there. Another 10 years, and you wouldn't have even had that much. She didn't get anywhere near the airplay that Michael Jackson got right after his death, and she was nearly as big as he was, and during much of the same time frame.

No disrespect to Whitney, but Michael's worldwide record sales total (solo and with The Jacksons) cracked one billion last year. Whitney's at about 200 million.

Michael (solo and with the Jacksons) had a 26-year chart run before the hits stopped coming for good. That gave him two generations of Top 40/CHR listeners.

Whitney had 15, and as has been noted, she was primarily an AC act for the final 10 years of that...limiting her to one generation and a slightly longer than average presence in CHR.

And fairly or unfairly, Michael's death is perceived as having been at the hands of an irresponsible doctor while Whitney was the inevitable end people had been predicting for years. The sympathy levels were totally different. Michael's eccentricities and allegations (never proven) of criminal behavior with children were all but forgotten, but the #1 afternoon talk radio team in L.A. called Whitney a "crack ho" after her death (they were suspended).

More than anything though, a huge chunk of America thinks Michael Jackson and sees a 9-year old doing the best James Brown impression imaginable. They watched him grow up. They'll forget the bad stuff. Whitney appeared at age 19, beautiful and talented...and America watched it all go downhill from there.

Again, fair or unfair...that's the gulf between Michael and Whitney and why airplay after their deaths is so different.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

If we started fresh tomorrow, took those 484 Billboard #1 hits of the 1970s and tested them all at once, Donny Osmond's "Puppy Love" isn't going to test well enough to air in New York, Chicago or L.A. It's a crapshoot at best in Salt Lake City, but maybe.

Frankly, your Osmond/SLC comment is weird and mildly derogatory/stereotypical.

However, your comment illustrates the arguement. Why bother testing it, "we assume" it doesn't work. #3 Billboard, #2 Record World, Gold Certified RIAA - call it a guilty pleasure song if you want, but theres not a finer independent mass media like radio to do things like this.

Working "with" charts is different than working "for" charts.

 

[firepoint525]

If she had lived another 10 years or so, her death probably would have been almost entirely ignored by radio. Her music would have aged out of the format by then. Seems like it was already headed that direction anyway.

Sorry, can't agree. If classic hits is moving more 80's heavy, then her songs are perfect for the mix. If she's aging out now, then all the Eagles, Bob Seager, and Journey records should have already exited.

Well, they almost ignored her anyway. I remember looking at the AC station's (her home format, btw) playlist a day or two after her death, and only seeing the occasional sprinkling of her songs in there. Another 10 years, and you wouldn't have even had that much. She didn't get anywhere near the airplay that Michael Jackson got right after his death, and she was nearly as big as he was, and during much of the same time frame.

Yeah, now we're on the same page. Largely ignored. Odd, for those desirable women demographics why 80's artists like her, Paula Abdul, or even lesser ones like Lisa Lisa or Laura Brannigan are either unplayed, or restricted to a song or two.
She absolutely is comparable to Micheal.

I would take it even a step further, and add Donna Summer to that list. Our former classic hits station here in Nashville was playing "Last Dance" and maybe one other hit from the 1978-1979 time period. (No, it was not "MacArthur's Park"! ;D) Our AC had been playing "She Works Hard for the Money" but, to the best of my knowledge, nothing else. I don't recall any significant uptick in airplays for Summer's material right after she died, and she was residing here in Nashville (at least part-time) at the time of her death!

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

If she had lived another 10 years or so, her death probably would have been almost entirely ignored by radio. Her music would have aged out of the format by then. Seems like it was already headed that direction anyway.

Sorry, can't agree. If classic hits is moving more 80's heavy, then her songs are perfect for the mix. If she's aging out now, then all the Eagles, Bob Seager, and Journey records should have already exited.

Well, they almost ignored her anyway. I remember looking at the AC station's (her home format, btw) playlist a day or two after her death, and only seeing the occasional sprinkling of her songs in there. Another 10 years, and you wouldn't have even had that much. She didn't get anywhere near the airplay that Michael Jackson got right after his death, and she was nearly as big as he was, and during much of the same time frame.

Yeah, now we're on the same page. Largely ignored. Odd, for those desirable women demographics why 80's artists like her, Paula Abdul, or even lesser ones like Lisa Lisa or Laura Brannigan are either unplayed, or restricted to a song or two.
She absolutely is comparable to Micheal.

I would take it even a step further, and add Donna Summer to that list. Our former classic hits station here in Nashville was playing "Last Dance" and maybe one other hit from the 1978-1979 time period. (No, it was not "MacArthur's Park"! ;D) Our AC had been playing "She Works Hard for the Money" but, to the best of my knowledge, nothing else. I don't recall any significant uptick in airplays for Summer's material right after she died, and she was residing here in Nashville (at least part-time) at the time of her death!

Michael will point out some Donna airplay at KRTH, but I must agree she's certainly not what she used to be. Certainly no big presentation by classic hits stations (for some reason they all try to lean classic rock).

 

[firepoint525]

A few weeks later, MCA called Paul. "We've got a new Elton John single (Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me) coming in a couple of weeks. It's more than 5 minutes long. We will not edit it. RKO can have the exclusive on it, but only if you don't edit it, either."

And Elton had, at that time, still yet to release "Lucy in the Sky" (approaching 5:00, if memory serves) and "Someone Saved My Life Tonight," which was really long! And Elton was about the biggest name out there in 1974 and 1975.

As to upsetting rotations, it does. The way I handled it (and I'm talking about songs that are six or seven minutes...roughly the length of two songs) in the 70s...by no means perfect...was that if the song came up as part of a two-song set, it could only air, displacing the other record, if it were a power record (our strongest category). In a three-record or longer set, it could be something other than a power and we'd drop a record in a lower category than it.

I was on a country station in the early '90s, and had the opposite problem. Because of a lack of commercials in the overnights, when I was on at the time, I burned through the rotation even faster. And if I recall, the network news during overnight hours was a minute shorter than at other times of day.

 

[firepoint525]

Michael will point out some Donna airplay at KRTH, but I must agree she's certainly not what she used to be. Certainly no big presentation by classic hits stations (for some reason they all try to lean classic rock).

Ours was kinda heavy on the '80s, but I didn't notice any serious lean toward classic rock (although certainly, there was some overlap between the two). They played '80s pop that wasn't being played anywhere else, except maybe occasionally on AC.

 

[firepoint525]

Michael (solo and with the Jacksons) had a 26-year chart run before the hits stopped coming for good. That gave him two generations of Top 40/CHR listeners.

I don't have my book in front of me, but I am guessing that you put that "hits stopped coming" date somewhere in the mid '90s. Seems reasonable to me.

And fairly or unfairly, Michael's death is perceived as having been at the hands of an irresponsible doctor while Whitney was the inevitable end people had been predicting for years. The sympathy levels were totally different. Michael's eccentricities and allegations (never proven) of criminal behavior with children were all but forgotten, but the #1 afternoon talk radio team in L.A. called Whitney a "crack ho" after her death (they were suspended).
More than anything though, a huge chunk of America thinks Michael Jackson and sees a 9-year old doing the best James Brown impression imaginable. They watched him grow up. They'll forget the bad stuff. Whitney appeared at age 19, beautiful and talented...and America watched it all go downhill from there.

Maybe it's just a generational thing with me, but all I see from him were his abusive father, the excessive nose jobs, the eccentricities, and, yes, the child abuse allegations. And I believe that these, more than anything else, were the reasons why those hits stopped coming. We just couldn't get past all the weirdness. Every time we grew to accept some weird behavior from him, he would raise the bar (or lower it, as the case may be) and do something even weirder. And he hung around children so much that it was hard NOT to believe the allegations. And paying off his '90s accuser didn't do anything for his rep, in my mind. Still, we can still accept hearing the hits from Off the Wall and Thriller, but anything more recent than that usually makes me tune out. The unwarranted "anger" and preachy political correctness in his later years were a turnoff for me.

But I can generally agree with you with regards to Whitney's gradual downward spiral. Didn't she almost have it all? Yes, and she lost it all, too.

 

[michael hagerty]

If we started fresh tomorrow, took those 484 Billboard #1 hits of the 1970s and tested them all at once, Donny Osmond's "Puppy Love" isn't going to test well enough to air in New York, Chicago or L.A. It's a crapshoot at best in Salt Lake City, but maybe.

Frankly, your Osmond/SLC comment is weird and mildly derogatory/stereotypical.

However, your comment illustrates the arguement. Why bother testing it, "we assume" it doesn't work. #3 Billboard, #2 Record World, Gold Certified RIAA - call it a guilty pleasure song if you want, but theres not a finer independent mass media like radio to do things like this.

Working "with" charts is different than working "for" charts.

One: I chose Donny and SLC because it's his hometown. As I told the poster from Joplin yesterday, Alice Cooper over-indexes in Phoenix for the same reason. To find that weird, stereotypical or derogatory, you'd have to have an unfavorable opinion of either or both cities. I don't.

Two: I don't know that "Puppy Love" hasn't been tested.neither do you. I have an opinion as to how well it would do, but there are things that KRTH's playing that surprise me.

Three: I never mentioned working with the charts until you asked if I'd worked for them. I expressed the opinion that, of the three, Billbosrd was the most reliable, but that was grading on a loose curve. That opinion is based on 10 years of weekly contact, which is more objective than you would likely get from someone who'd worked for any of them and thus might have loyalties or grudges toward one or more.

 

[CTListener]

If we started fresh tomorrow, took those 484 Billboard #1 hits of the 1970s and tested them all at once, Donny Osmond's "Puppy Love" isn't going to test well enough to air in New York, Chicago or L.A. It's a crapshoot at best in Salt Lake City, but maybe.

Frankly, your Osmond/SLC comment is weird and mildly derogatory/stereotypical.

Nothing weird or stereotypical about the lasting appeal of hometown artists. Aerosmith and J. Geils Band will always be overrepresented on Boston classic rock stations. WDRC-FM Hartford held on to Gene Pitney tracks until the mid-'00s, long after they'd aged out everywhere else (although, like everyone else, it wouldn't touch the Carpenters, who also came from Connecticut). The Osmond family was proud of its Utah roots; I wouldn't be surprised if their songs still test well there, at least among older listeners.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

If hometown meant anything (which locality was already dismissed earlier) then Detroit could support a Motown + Aretha and others station. And Memphis should be heavy with Stax.

And if character or actions of celebrities determined playlists and music, then the airwaves would be silent.

 

[michael hagerty]

If hometown meant anything (which locality was already dismissed earlier) then Detroit could support a Motown + Aretha and others station. And Memphis should be heavy with Stax.

Except that Alice Cooper tests very well and gets airplay as a result in his hometown of Phoenix. And nobody has an all-Alice station here. Or even an Alice and Stevie (Nicks) one. Nobody's suggesting an all-hometown station anywhere, just relaying the fact that hometown artists often get play beyond what they get in other cities on existing formats.

And if character or actions of celebrities determined playlists and music, then the airwaves would be silent.

Except for.....(dare I say) Donny Osmond.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Except that Alice Cooper tests very well and gets airplay as a result in his hometown of Phoenix. And nobody has an all-Alice station here. Or even an Alice and Stevie (Nicks) one. Nobody's suggesting an all-hometown station anywhere, just relaying the fact that hometown artists often get play beyond what they get in other cities on existing formats.

The comparison of a singular artist to one city is quite different than comparing a genre that defined a city. Again, places like Detroit don't embrace their past - a classic hits station could at least be creative and spotlight local acts on weekends or a particular night, but creativity is frowned upon.

 

[oldies76]

Between the years 1970-1989 Billboard logged 484 #1 hits, add the years 1964-1969 if you want for an additional 124 equalling 608.
If all #1's were tested in a 1000 song test, it would roughly take up half.

I've said this before, but do you realize (looking at the 28 number one songs of 1977), that maybe 12 or 13 are somewhat played today? Startling isn't it!

Look at 1976, 26 songs made #1, maybe 9 or 10 are played today.
35 songs hit #1 in 1975, and only 13 or 14 are reasonably played today....crazy isn't it?

Go up to 1979, 23 #1 songs, maybe 12 are played. "Ring My Bell" honestly is questionable, but "Pop Muzik"?

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Between the years 1970-1989 Billboard logged 484 #1 hits, add the years 1964-1969 if you want for an additional 124 equalling 608.
If all #1's were tested in a 1000 song test, it would roughly take up half.

I've said this before, but do you realize (looking at the 28 number one songs of 1977), that maybe 12 or 13 are somewhat played today? Startling isn't it!

Look at 1976, 26 songs made #1, maybe 9 or 10 are played today.
35 songs hit #1 in 1975, and only 13 or 14 are reasonably played today....crazy isn't it?

Go up to 1979, 23 #1 songs, maybe 12 are played. "Ring My Bell" honestly is questionable, but "Pop Muzik"?

Yep, noted. Check out every year from 1964-1989 --- sad!

 

[michael hagerty]

Except that Alice Cooper tests very well and gets airplay as a result in his hometown of Phoenix. And nobody has an all-Alice station here. Or even an Alice and Stevie (Nicks) one. Nobody's suggesting an all-hometown station anywhere, just relaying the fact that hometown artists often get play beyond what they get in other cities on existing formats.

The comparison of a singular artist to one city is quite different than comparing a genre that defined a city. Again, places like Detroit don't embrace their past - a classic hits station could at least be creative and spotlight local acts on weekends or a particular night, but creativity is frowned upon.

I've also never been to Detroit. Are you suggesting that WOMC ignores Motown and other Detroit acts?

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Except that Alice Cooper tests very well and gets airplay as a result in his hometown of Phoenix. And nobody has an all-Alice station here. Or even an Alice and Stevie (Nicks) one. Nobody's suggesting an all-hometown station anywhere, just relaying the fact that hometown artists often get play beyond what they get in other cities on existing formats.

The comparison of a singular artist to one city is quite different than comparing a genre that defined a city. Again, places like Detroit don't embrace their past - a classic hits station could at least be creative and spotlight local acts on weekends or a particular night, but creativity is frowned upon.

I've also never been to Detroit. Are you suggesting that WOMC ignores Motown and other Detroit acts?

I'd say WOMC's Motown output is equal to WCBS's. Nothing special. Not even all the Supremes #1's make the list. As for weekend specials - none. And just throwing this out there, I'm fairly familiar with WOMC.

As for Aretha - Respect as always - maybe an 80's cut. It's perfect CBS Classic Hits in action.