Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[RIN3GUY]

Whether at work, at home, or on the road, listeners have to choose between the best options available. Not everyone has an MP3 player with 2500 songs on it as I do. I know that KJMK is the best local choice for the workplace, because I hear it all over town. But that doesn't mean everybody is satisfied hearing "the same old six and seven" every day. If you listen all day long at work, you will hear every song they've got in just 3-4 days.

Michael, do you really think I'm the only listener who likes the songs on the list above?? Just 100 or 200 extra songs would make an incredible difference on some of these constricted playlists I've heard online, enough to give them more than just a week's worth of music to work with.
KJMK's "powers" rotate at a ridiculously overbearing frequency of every 28 to 36 hours. It begins to smack of a brainwashing program because it really does numb the brain against those songs, even the ones I love the most.

Let me ask you a question, and be honest: How often do YOU really want to hear "American Pie" over and over?

 

[michael hagerty]

Whether at work, at home, or on the road, listeners have to choose between the best options available. Not everyone has an MP3 player with 2500 songs on it as I do. I know that KJMK is the best local choice for the workplace, because I hear it all over town. But that doesn't mean everybody is satisfied hearing "the same old six and seven" every day. If you listen all day long at work, you will hear every song they've got in just 3-4 days.

Michael, do you really think I'm the only listener who likes the songs on the list above?? Just 100 or 200 extra songs would make an incredible difference on some of these constricted playlists I've heard online, enough to give them more than just a week's worth of music to work with.
KJMK's "powers" rotate at a ridiculously overbearing frequency of every 28 to 36 hours. It begins to smack of a brainwashing program because it really does numb the brain against those songs, even the ones I love the most.

Let me ask you a question, and be honest: How often do YOU really want to hear "American Pie" over and over?

Well, we've already established that I have wildly eclectic tastes, so I'm the last guy who'd turn on any radio station for a prolonged period of time.

And, no, I don't think you're the only person who likes the songs on that list. But I also wouldn't mess with a list that has me at a 10.5 after 18 months of play. Especially when the guy across the street with the big list used to have a 9.6 and is down to a 7.0.

Really? Nobody's playing "Me and Bobby McGee" in that town?

As for the powers, 28 to 36 hours, managed correctly, should have even the all-day at work listener hearing the most-played record once in a week to ten days, and the people who don't listen at work but only during what I imagine are fairly brief commutes are probably closer to three weeks.

If they were frustrated, the station wouldn't have that number. At least some of the audience would go back to Mike for the variety. But Mike's lost almost a third of it's audience, and given the rate of decline, I don't think they're finished falling yet.

 

[davideduardo]

KMXL's much broader playlist (1200-1500 songs), although considerably rockier and containing some '90s and 2000s, continues to be a major draw on the market share.

Mike is a Jack wannabe, and self-classifies as Adult Hits, and not Classic Hits. Two different formats with significantly different core audiences.

WJMK is a very 35+ station, with a #1 position in 35-64. Mike is more of a 25-54 format, with a strong showing 5 rank positions ahead of WJMK in 18-34. That further shows how different the audience and core of each station is.

Jack-like stations tend to be around 1000 regular rotation songs, while Classic Hits stations are usually in the 700 song range. Jack-like stations are nearly all jock-less. Classic hits have jocks, live or voice tracked, and tend to have more service elements.

 

[michael hagerty]

David has access to information that I don't, so his perspective is better than mine. As we say so often, 6+ numbers don't tell the entire story.

 

[oldies76]

If you listen all day long at work, you will hear every song they've got in just 3-4 days.

We have the same problem with Muzak at work. Same songs almost daily. A lot of them get old really quick!

 

[RIN3GUY]

Mike is a Jack wannabe, and self-classifies as Adult Hits, and not Classic Hits. Two different formats with significantly different core audiences. KJMK is a very 35+ station, with a #1 position in 35-64. Mike is more of a 25-54 format, with a strong showing 5 rank positions ahead of KJMK in 18-34. That further shows how different the audience and core of each station is.

Jack-like stations tend to be around 1000 regular rotation songs, while Classic Hits stations are usually in the 700 song range.

The rotation of the "robot stations" (Mike, Jack, etc.) is much closer to what I would consider optimal. KMXL 95.1 definitely has 1000 songs and certainly another 100 if not 200. And apparently they are not smarting for it because their library has been at that nice size for at least five or six years regardless of which way their ratings happened to be trending. If KJMK had that same range of music, I would be tuning in at home all day long and would station hop in the car much less often. I can put up with "Brown-Eyed Girl," "Margaritaville," "Hotel California" & "American Pie" once a week, but daily or even every other day is a major tune-out.

 

[davideduardo]

The rotation of the "robot stations" (Mike, Jack, etc.) is much closer to what I would consider optimal.

The Jack format... as well as it's imitators... was designed for people who hate DJs and find their chatter annoying and banal. The count for positive scoring songs tested against that group tends to be in the 1000 title range, so they play 1000 titles.

If KJMK had that same range of music, I would be tuning in at home all day long and would station hop in the car much less often.

But they would lose most of their core listeners, because in market after market, the list of positive scoring songs for the demo and lifestyle of classic hits listeners is more in the 600 tp 700 range.

 

[RIN3GUY]

The rotation of the "robot stations" (Mike, Jack, etc.) is much closer to what I would consider optimal.

The Jack format... as well as it's imitators... was designed for people who hate DJs and find their chatter annoying and banal. The count for positive scoring songs tested against that group tends to be in the 1000 title range, so they play 1000 titles.

If KJMK had that same range of music, I would be tuning in at home all day long and would station hop in the car much less often.

But they would lose most of their core listeners, because in market after market, the list of positive scoring songs for the demo and lifestyle of classic hits listeners is more in the 600 tp 700 range.

I fit into both demos, but love stations with large libraries. However, I am also a hard-core Classic hits fan who loves DJs, especially those who pay attention to their listeners' feedback!

A station such as KJMK which has already established a solid base can easily afford to add at least a few dozen more carefully chosen songs without incurring any risk. I cannot believe anyone would tune out by them playing another 100 good songs such as some of those on my list above. I am sure that is especially true in smaller markets such as ours, since there are no options for this format. I am certain that everyone would find the change refreshing and exciting instead of getting that "stuck in a rut" feeling which often prevents me from even tuning in. Adding in some pleasant surprises mixes it up and makes the experience of listening to the radio more enjoyable.

 

[oldies76]

I am sure that is especially true in smaller markets such as ours, since there are no options for this format. I am certain that everyone would find the change refreshing and exciting instead of getting that "stuck in a rut" feeling which often prevents me from even tuning in. Adding in some pleasant surprises mixes it up and makes the experience of listening to the radio more enjoyable.

It's a lost cause RIN3GUY....no sense debating these "suits" over and over again. We know it's the right thing to do, in terms of a larger library, playlists, lost hits..etc..etc..

If their main agenda is to suppress the music that should air by way of this and that, demos this, PPM that and so forth, then oh well and let it be.

They'll never convince you or myself and others that agree with us on the way it's "supposed to be". We know how it should be and hopefully someday, somewhere, somebody (or us) will perform otherwise in some fashion. Small markets and AM radio have begun to some extent....we'll just leave it at that.

I've moved on. :

 

[PirateJohnny]

I also like a larger library without quick repetition. My personal "radio" library has around 6000 tracks. But if a station wants to make money to pay the bills by selling advertising you have to go by the numbers. And we keep being shown here that small libraries bring in the big numbers that bring in the cash.

We are an eclectic bunch here. If we all lived in the same market and all had PPMs and all participated in focus groups we could have our way.

 

[michael hagerty]

I am sure that is especially true in smaller markets such as ours, since there are no options for this format. I am certain that everyone would find the change refreshing and exciting instead of getting that "stuck in a rut" feeling which often prevents me from even tuning in. Adding in some pleasant surprises mixes it up and makes the experience of listening to the radio more enjoyable.

It's a lost cause RIN3GUY....no sense debating these "suits" over and over again. We know it's the right thing to do, in terms of a larger library, playlists, lost hits..etc..etc..

If their main agenda is to suppress the music that should air by way of this and that, demos this, PPM that and so forth, then oh well and let it be.

They'll never convince you or myself and others that agree with us on the way it's "supposed to be". We know how it should be and hopefully someday, somewhere, somebody (or us) will perform otherwise in some fashion. Small markets and AM radio have begun to some extent....we'll just leave it at that.

I've moved on. :

For the record, I'm not a suit.

There is no agenda, certainly not music suppression. I'm just telling you what I learned (in most cases the hard way) in 10 years of programming radio stations.

 

[davideduardo]

It's a lost cause RIN3GUY....no sense debating these "suits" over and over again. We know it's the right thing to do, in terms of a larger library, playlists, lost hits..etc..etc..

Following up on Michael's comments...

(And certifying that I have not had a suit that fit me for better than a decade)

Most of us in programming have either committed the mistake of having too long a list or seen a friend or competitor have one. We also learned that the outcome of such an error is uniformly lower ratings, lower billing and being fired.

I fortunately made that mistake once, before I was 20, and the only reason I did not get fired was that I owned the station. But the embarrassment was a magnificent teacher.

Until you have done it or watched it and suffered the consequences, it's possible to live in a dream world. But reality is like Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy... fun ideas until we reach maturity.

 

[johndavis]

Michael may remember an AAA station that I used to work for where we had an enormous library. Power rotation meant a title spun once a day. It was pretty much the owner's personal jukebox. Somebody complained that we were "10 in a row that you don't know" and we put that phrase in a TV spot.

All the other stations the guy owned were traditional formats with tight lists, and their profit funded our "musical adventure." There was no debt. We sold mostly direct to business owners who loved the format. We might have eked out a small profit, but nothing like the country station he owned whose monster billing allowed him to buy us for a song when our previous owner was hemorrhaging money and he offered to pay cash.

Then the owner bought 2 more stations and had to borrow money. He tried creating a new format that was all over the place. With some focus it could have been Jack-FM 10 years before there was a Jack, right down to the off the wall liners. But we had no research and no focus and our first book turned in a 0.9. Then reality set in: if we were going to pay the note back early (because he hated debt) we had to quit screwing around. The one FM became Smooth Jazz (with proper research). After throwing several consultants and research at the AAA and it still wouldn't turn around, its playlist was cut to about 750 songs and it morphed into a Modern AC to pump up its value before he cashed out the entire group.

Every time I see somebody boast on here of their web radio station playing 6500 titles, I remember working for that place because our library was about that size at its most ridiculous peak. If you lucked out you might hear some decent songs. Most of the time you heard a bunch of clunkers. It was tough to listen to.

The difference is that the typical web station costs about $25-50/month to run (including music licensing) and a 100,000 watt FM costs millions and is supposed to put food on people's tables. Anytime you're trying to pay somebody's mortgage, feed their kids, and pay the light bill, the stakes are a lot higher. Damn right you'll program conservatively. It's not just your own job you're responsible for, it's everyone who works in your shop.

 

[allenv]

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree...My thing is you can play those 500 staple songs along with 300 more to give the station some flavor..The problem with alot of stations is there is no flavor..Its vanilla or nothing and that's the issue...It has to be done within reason and cannot be based on any personal taste within the station...Thre are so many factors that go into a stations failure or success and music is only part of the puzzle..Let's face it its all about the dollars..Whether its 200 songs or tweny thousand..it has to be properly promoted..your sales staff has to sell it..and you have to have good people to execute it...I don't care to play what I like..I can do that at home..I want to please listeners and clients. I will say this one more time the #1 compliant I hear is from listeners is it seems like I hear the same songs on the radio everyday... and well if you play_____ by Fleetwood Mac why don't you play____________ by Fleetwood Mac...We owe the people an intelligent answer to that question and giving them a bunch of research shows____ is not a good enough answer in my opinion if we answer them at all.

 

[davideduardo]

We owe the people an intelligent answer to that question and giving them a bunch of research shows____ is not a good enough answer in my opinion if we answer them at all.

Research is simply organized listener feedback. Is there some reason why listener likes and dislikes should be overruled by playing songs that the majority of them dislike?

In the 48 PPM markets, stations can get MediaMonitors' MScore(tm) data and see how individual songs, over time, result in different ranges of audience retention or loss. When you see significant attrition every time you play a song, you know that the song is a clunker and dangerous.

 

[michael hagerty]

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree...My thing is you can play those 500 staple songs along with 300 more to give the station some flavor..The problem with alot of stations is there is no flavor..Its vanilla or nothing and that's the issue...It has to be done within reason and cannot be based on any personal taste within the station...Thre are so many factors that go into a stations failure or success and music is only part of the puzzle..Let's face it its all about the dollars..Whether its 200 songs or tweny thousand..it has to be properly promoted..your sales staff has to sell it..and you have to have good people to execute it...I don't care to play what I like..I can do that at home..I want to please listeners and clients. I will say this one more time the #1 compliant I hear is from listeners is it seems like I hear the same songs on the radio everyday... and well if you play_____ by Fleetwood Mac why don't you play____________ by Fleetwood Mac...We owe the people an intelligent answer to that question and giving them a bunch of research shows____ is not a good enough answer in my opinion if we answer them at all.

Adding 300 tracks to a base of 500 means that just under 38% of your songs don't test as well as the others (or else you'd have been playing them all along).

To do that to a station that's doing well in ratings and revenue is like walking into the control room of a nuclear power plant and pushing a third of the buttons just to find out what they do.

 

[johndavis]

if you play_____ by Fleetwood Mac why don't you play____________ by Fleetwood Mac...We owe the people an intelligent answer to that question and giving them a bunch of research shows____ is not a good enough answer in my opinion if we answer them at all.

My favorite Fleetwood Mac song is Gold Dust Woman. But it's not on their greatest hits CD. Why would they leave that song off?

Maybe my favorites aren't in line with everyone else's favorites.

The station I work for does a feature every afternoon where you can vote up and down songs online and pick the playlist for an hour. We don't fake it; there is no music scheduled for the hour and we play what the audience chooses (although we will toss out a title if it played too recently). We have a fair number of deep cuts in the library that are usually only used for special features (playing a double shot of an artist on his birthday, etc.) and the audience could pick some fairly obscure songs if they clicked around enough in the library. Yet the majority of the songs we play that hour are the same songs we play every day because that's what got voted in. If a song is good enough, people will have a passion for it 30 years later no matter how many times they hear it.

 

[michael hagerty]

if you play_____ by Fleetwood Mac why don't you play____________ by Fleetwood Mac...We owe the people an intelligent answer to that question and giving them a bunch of research shows____ is not a good enough answer in my opinion if we answer them at all.

My favorite Fleetwood Mac song is Gold Dust Woman. But it's not on their greatest hits CD. Why would they leave that song off?

Maybe my favorites aren't in line with everyone else's favorites.

The station I work for does a feature every afternoon where you can vote up and down songs online and pick the playlist for an hour. We don't fake it; there is no music scheduled for the hour and we play what the audience chooses (although we will toss out a title if it played too recently). We have a fair number of deep cuts in the library that are usually only used for special features (playing a double shot of an artist on his birthday, etc.) and the audience could pick some fairly obscure songs if they clicked around enough in the library. Yet the majority of the songs we play that hour are the same songs we play every day because that's what got voted in. If a song is good enough, people will have a passion for it 30 years later no matter how many times they hear it.

And the reason they vote for the songs you usually play, John?

They have lives. They have work. Maybe they missed the last six times you played it. Maybe they haven't heard it in a month or more. Or maybe they heard it yesterday and the phone rang or the boss came in 60 seconds into it.

 

[johndavis]

They have lives. They have work. Maybe they missed the last six times you played it. Maybe they haven't heard it in a month or more. Or maybe they heard it yesterday and the phone rang or the boss came in 60 seconds into it.

But with our new app, we can text you before the next time we play it. I love technology.

 

[PirateJohnny]

They have lives. They have work. Maybe they missed the last six times you played it. Maybe they haven't heard it in a month or more. Or maybe they heard it yesterday and the phone rang or the boss came in 60 seconds into it.

But with our new app, we can text you before the next time we play it. I love technology.

Hope they're not listening in the car. It's illegal (almost everywhere) to text and drive.