You're not a REAL musician.
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Classic Rock: Evolve or Die!
- Thread starter semoochie
- Start date
You're not a REAL musician.
This is one of your statements that rings an 11 on the "bull meter". Unless you at least identify the band you were in and indicate how your music sold and charted, I think most of us will chose to write this up to a case where your famous "hypebole" is simple a lie.
Let me throw this into the shark infested waters here. Classic Rock could evolve into Classic Alternative. There's Classic Hits, Classic Rock, why not Classic Alternative? Ok, a short-lived formatic idea, 
A
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Those of us who labored in bar bands playing covers of classic rock songs, even before some suit named it "classic rock" were still musicians. Being a REAL musician means playing a musical instrument and/or singing. Those of us who toiled away in obscurity in hopes of someday maybe making it big were not FAKE musicians. Our instruments were real. Our amps were real. My hearing loss from standing too close to the amps is real.
The lead singer of my old garage band is the only one of us who stuck with it. He can't get his music played on the radio, though it is outstanding. It just doesn't fit any of the teeny, tiny pigeonholes you suits restrict airplay to. But he does well in live performances, does a lot of studio work, even wrote a score for an indie movie. I wasn't as talented as he was, so I ended up just playing as a hobby. But that doesn't make me any less of a "real" musician.
Frankly, you owe a major apology to every musician who plugs away at entertaining people in bar bands, wedding bands, and playing other live music venues. How dare you set yourself up as the judge of which musicians are REAL and which aren't? You have a lot of damn gall!
And you're a bigger jerk than TheBigA on this topic.
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Let me throw this into the shark infested waters here. Classic Rock could evolve into Classic Alternative. There's Classic Hits, Classic Rock, why not Classic Alternative? Ok, a short-lived formatic idea,
From a radio format perspective, that makes sense. But, the problem with all those permutations is that they take what is basically a small niche, the classic rock genre, and fragments it into little pieces all of which are too small to survive. As I keep saying, one classic rock station per market has a chance of surviving but to do so, it has to cover the entire classic rock genre. Slice it into little pieces, and they all die.
Being a REAL musician means making a living at it. And we're talking about radio airplay here, not garage bands. Let's get back to the subject.
As I said, real musicians would never label themselves as "classic." That's presumptuous and egotistical. One doesn't become "classic" until one achieves some success.
So much for trying to be positive.
I suspect that nobody in a suit used that term first. Like many format names such as "smooth jazz" it came from listeners. If the noise is loud enough, it becomes the "name".
You mean that "pideonhole" called "hits"?
Finally something we can all agree on.
THis is a discussion about radio. The context of your statement very solidly made it appear that you had performed on recorded, hit songs. Of course you didn't, which was my point.
If being a jerk means calling you on your "hyperpole" then I'm a jerk.
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I am positive that you are an *******. I never said that we thought we were "classic". But we knew the music we were playing, especially when we covered classic songs, was classic.
"Suit" is a figure of speech, not necessarily the garment that the person wears. But then, you already knew that.
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K.M. Richards
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Let me throw this into the shark infested waters here. Classic Rock could evolve into Classic Alternative. There's Classic Hits, Classic Rock, why not Classic Alternative? Ok, a short-lived formatic idea,
I believe that is what Sirius/XM uses as a slogan for the "First Wave" channel.
No, I did not know that. But, fortunately, I have you, the great teacher, to straighten out all the shortcomings in my education, life and career.
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Snarkiness notwithstanding, this is nowhere near the first time I pointed out that being a "suit" refers to a particular job position, not necessarily what one wore to work. That includes threads you were participating in, and even replies to you personally.
Two different formats. I once heard an 80s show on an alternative station, finding it amazing these songs were now "classic". It's just not the same music.Let me throw this into the shark infested waters here. Classic Rock could evolve into Classic Alternative. There's Classic Hits, Classic Rock, why not Classic Alternative? Ok, a short-lived formatic idea,
Some of the bands ae still recording.
Myrtle Beach SC once had a classic rock station that played new songs. I think someone may have used the term "future classics". Or maybe it was just my idea d no one ever did it. In any case, after numerous changs, the station is back to rock as "everything that rocks".
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Allow me to throw some positive perspective on this issue. The title, "Classic Rock: Evolve or Die!" strikes me as a very true, accurate statement. The only issue is how "classic rock" should evolve in order to not die. It's boiling down to two different basic takes on the issue.
On the one hand, you have the suits who believe that every single format on the radio is so identical to every other format that a single, holistic, one-size-fits-all approach to evolutionary change works for all types of music in all markets because it has been tested to death. Therefore, classic rock should evolve in an identical manner as all other formats.
On the other hand, you have musicians, music lovers, and ordinary listeners who recognize that classic rock is a much bigger tent than all of the other narrow little formats. It's a distinctively unique kind of music, with it's own unique and distinctive appeal, and stands the best chance of success if it evolves in a manner best suited to it's unique, distinctive character.
There are many, many pronouncements from the suits declaring that their position on the issue is correct, because they are the suits and the suits know best. I wonder if any of them can provide any sort of logical, coherent argument based on logic and common sense that supports their position. Of course, that means aside from stacked-deck testing.
On the one hand, you have the suits who believe that every single format on the radio is so identical to every other format that a single, holistic, one-size-fits-all approach to evolutionary change works for all types of music in all markets because it has been tested to death. Therefore, classic rock should evolve in an identical manner as all other formats.
On the other hand, you have musicians, music lovers, and ordinary listeners who recognize that classic rock is a much bigger tent than all of the other narrow little formats. It's a distinctively unique kind of music, with it's own unique and distinctive appeal, and stands the best chance of success if it evolves in a manner best suited to it's unique, distinctive character.
There are many, many pronouncements from the suits declaring that their position on the issue is correct, because they are the suits and the suits know best. I wonder if any of them can provide any sort of logical, coherent argument based on logic and common sense that supports their position. Of course, that means aside from stacked-deck testing.
True. My standards station was on the same frequency as a classic rock station, so in the morning I actually heard "December" by Collective Soul before the problem cleared up. And Lenny Kravitz did "American Woman". Kid Rock does seem like he would fit the classic format.
If you have some FACTUAL basis for what you propose, studies that YOU approve, testing that you accept, I'm all ears and eyes. Until then, we're sticking with what works. My grandpappy told me to stick with what works. That's good logic and good common sense.
There are some formats that simply die off, as the genre or genres they presented decline or age out of what radio can program profitably.
Beautiful Music did not evolve. As the audience aged and record companies ceased to release product, some stations migrated to different forms of AC while others changed format completely.
Smooth Jazz could not evolve any further. It began in 1987 as a "new age" format, added soft and more melodic jazz and light r&b vocals and other ingredients. But by the time the format reached 20 years old, the audience was aging. Different stations tried different blends of music to try to keep the format alive, and none succeeded. There was no evolution, as Smooth Jazz stations changed to everything from Regional Mexican to CHR.
Standards, a format that has various iterations ranging from the noble but unsuccessful contemporized Red in St Louis to the Al Ham version, has simply aged out of existence. While there is a small core of under-60 partisans, it's not big enough to support a local station anywhere.
AAA is another format that met with great success in its formative years about 40 years ago, but which has not successfully been introduced to new audiences in other markets in the last several decades. It appears that some markets were able to create their own core AAA audiences back when FM was the only choice, but today listeners will not support a station with eclectic, broad and often unfamiliar playlists.
Classic Rock has only been successful when it focuses on the aging AOR listeners of the 70's and 80's. Stations that have tried to add newer material or deeper cuts have not, with rare exceptions, been successful. For that reason, as the format ages into the 55+ demos, it will die and stations will either morph into something related such as alternative (a tough sell for newer format converts) or unrelated formats.
And the vast majority of station programmers are very far removed from anything "suit-like".
I think what we're talking about here is a music problem, not a radio problem. I don't disagree with the idea that there is music being made today that sounds like classic rock. Tom Petty himself has talked about it. He thinks today's country sounds like classic rock. So fans of classic rock who want something new in the classic rock style are finding it now in country music. They seem very pleased with what they hear, and it provides a contrast with some of the other styles in the format. A number of classic rock artists have done country projects. Just a few months ago, the Doobie Brothers released a Country Tribute album, featuring duets with a dozen of today's hot stars. Motley Crue did a similar album last summer. A number of classic rock musicians, like Kenny Greenberg and Bonnie Rait's entire, band live Nashville and work on a lot of country records.
New music by classic rock artists or music that is done in the classic rock style doesn't really EVOLVE the music, but rather stagnates it. But when it's placed in different context, it'd new and fresh. That is how the music truly evolves.
I agree about Beautiful Music, Standards and such. Funny thing, Beautiful Music's history is pretty unique. It seems the radio stations in the early days found much of the recorded material was not cleared for broadcast. Syndicators hired mostly European Orchestras to do covers of contemporary songs, something that made their music mix unique and then recorded music (albums) was okayed for broadcast and was a part of the mix. The beautiful music format happened as stations used the format to provide a music service for merchants with the standard 90 second to 2 minute silent break each quarter hour for commercials, news and weather that was heard only on the FM broadcast.
My parents listened to Standards or MOR stations that played the likes of Frank Sinatra and such. I noted growing up hearing these stations that they began blending in the softer side of top 40 to skew younger, eventually evolving as lite rock or adult contemporary stations if they survived at all. By the late 60s a few stations were doing true AC but they were few and far between, stuck in that canyon between MOR and Top 40.
I think Classic Rock has a timeliness to it but I have never seen it evolve successfully without alienating the core audience. Deeper tracks sent listeners punching buttons to the next station and newer material did the same. It seems the deviation does not bring new listeners but turns the core audience away. In some markets, the classic rock format dominates. More often than not, the Classic Hits hybrid has had greater success by joining the former oldies listener with the classic rocker.
I think Classic Rock will die as a radio format at the point the format is no longer a moneymaker for commercial radio. Then a few independent public stations might try to get those folks but I think the format's days are numbered. I think classic rock tracks will pop up in other formats since the root of those formats musically is based on classic rock. It is the money, specifically the lack of, that will be the deciding factor.
Smooth Jazz died out not because of a lack of listeners but because the listeners weren't the ones the advertisers were buying. I always felt the Smooth Jazz format was too narrow. There was one Smooth Jazz station I felt expanded it's typical reach. They might play a Martin Denny tune and later mix in something like Summer Breeze by Seals & Crofts. I suspect the change in format a few years later came through an offer to lease the station at better money although the station had a nice share and fairly decent spot schedule to support the format.
While we are at it, Top 40 pretty much died a couple of decades back, speaking of the variety and core artists. I figured that was going to happen jocking top 40 in the mid and late 1980s. It seemed too much product was fairly marginal...sort of like they were re-hashing or were running out of creativity. It had to change.
One thing I think is worth mentioning is the evolution of formats over the decades. This is no longer a world where a contemporary format means just top 40. There are so many splinters. This is making radio more difficult to program because we can no longer risk playing a song that sends the listener elsewhere. It is just plain hard to expand because these splinter groups have evolved their tastes into such a small circle of music you have to unite as many groups as possible with a playlist all will like in order to get the numbers that will bring in the revenue. When I started in radio, adding a song out of the box was not a big deal. People were much more tolerant as listeners. And after all, programming is just the reaction to the desires of the market.
My parents listened to Standards or MOR stations that played the likes of Frank Sinatra and such. I noted growing up hearing these stations that they began blending in the softer side of top 40 to skew younger, eventually evolving as lite rock or adult contemporary stations if they survived at all. By the late 60s a few stations were doing true AC but they were few and far between, stuck in that canyon between MOR and Top 40.
I think Classic Rock has a timeliness to it but I have never seen it evolve successfully without alienating the core audience. Deeper tracks sent listeners punching buttons to the next station and newer material did the same. It seems the deviation does not bring new listeners but turns the core audience away. In some markets, the classic rock format dominates. More often than not, the Classic Hits hybrid has had greater success by joining the former oldies listener with the classic rocker.
I think Classic Rock will die as a radio format at the point the format is no longer a moneymaker for commercial radio. Then a few independent public stations might try to get those folks but I think the format's days are numbered. I think classic rock tracks will pop up in other formats since the root of those formats musically is based on classic rock. It is the money, specifically the lack of, that will be the deciding factor.
Smooth Jazz died out not because of a lack of listeners but because the listeners weren't the ones the advertisers were buying. I always felt the Smooth Jazz format was too narrow. There was one Smooth Jazz station I felt expanded it's typical reach. They might play a Martin Denny tune and later mix in something like Summer Breeze by Seals & Crofts. I suspect the change in format a few years later came through an offer to lease the station at better money although the station had a nice share and fairly decent spot schedule to support the format.
While we are at it, Top 40 pretty much died a couple of decades back, speaking of the variety and core artists. I figured that was going to happen jocking top 40 in the mid and late 1980s. It seemed too much product was fairly marginal...sort of like they were re-hashing or were running out of creativity. It had to change.
One thing I think is worth mentioning is the evolution of formats over the decades. This is no longer a world where a contemporary format means just top 40. There are so many splinters. This is making radio more difficult to program because we can no longer risk playing a song that sends the listener elsewhere. It is just plain hard to expand because these splinter groups have evolved their tastes into such a small circle of music you have to unite as many groups as possible with a playlist all will like in order to get the numbers that will bring in the revenue. When I started in radio, adding a song out of the box was not a big deal. People were much more tolerant as listeners. And after all, programming is just the reaction to the desires of the market.
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