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Classic Rock: Evolve or Die!

Avid Listener seems to think that after the masses are served by the dog pile of stations fighting for those listeners that a niche format can work nicely. I gather Avid Listener has never been in radio and has no clue about the business of running a station.

Once you reach the masses, the niche formats are so numerous and defined that the numbers in each niche group are so minute, there is not any way to pay the bills, much less turn a profit. There’s not two or three niches but likely a hundred if not hundreds.

If you are in a market where the average FM station goes for $5 Million, the seller is not going to sell it to you for less than the fair market price, $5 Million, no matter the format you will put on the station. In other words, the cost of entry is $5 Million no matter if you will go for the masses or a niche. So, the group buying the radio station wants the most promising option for a return for their money, a mass appeal format.

Radio is either commercial and advertising based or non-commercial and listener and underwriting based.

In commercial radio everyone thinks sales happen by being a good radio sales person. This is true, but a good radio sales person knows they have to fit the sales box. In other words, you cannot control the client and you cannot control the recipient of the messenger. The radio sales person does not change thinking or habits but persuades the client by demonstrating their product can help them build awareness and make more money. A good radio sales person knows his audience and what needs to be done to reach that listener with the message carefully crafted to get them to hear it.

In rated markets any business of the size that can afford to advertise in radio has an advertising agency that makes buying decisions. Those agencies have to justify their decisions, so they use the ratings to document they made the wise choice of buying the right top rated stations. There is never any cash for a niche station. I’ve been in that position and on a first name basis with many media buyers who never once said yes.

So, from a note payment based on the fair market value of the radio station and the way advertising is purchased, the niche format is not an option. In fact, it is simply off the table.

I can tell you that not many listeners pay up for their non-commercial radio station. It has been said about 1 in 10 will be a ‘member’. That means of 1,000 listeners maybe 100 will donate, usually around $60 a year. Most all stations need grants and Underwriting as well. So to get grants and Underwriting there is some level of pressure to serve a sizable audience, especially Underwriting because regardless of FCC rules, the underlying reason for the business to Underwrite is based on the results they will receive from their ‘advertising’, so the number of people you reach is crucial. A niche format simply is not much of an option. If your market is 1,000,000 and your niche can gather 0.5% of that audience, that’s 5,000 listeners. That means about 500 members and no interest among Underwriters and likely from many that offer grants. If you paid just $1 Million for the station, those 500 will never pay the monthly note. That leaves you scrambling for non-radio or not on the air revenue raising. You might be able to do that but I can almost guarantee your on air product will suffer to the point it is ineffective because you won’t have the help or dollars to make sure everything is done right. If you do a less than perfect job, your results on income will suffer pretty much equally.

The numbers never work because the bigger the population, the more expensive the operation is. Land and rent is more expensive, etc.

This is where Low Power FMs tend to suffer. Those that are not religious are frequently niche programmed. They wind up reaching perhaps 1% of a tiny fraction of the market. If you get 1% of 50,000, that’s not much. Such stations might bring in $1,000 to $5,000 a year in income. Most fold up after a few years because the board is tired of digging in their wallet each month to pay the bills the revenue doesn’t cover. I know a good number of LPFM operators.

Obviously, the niche formats are better suited for internet streams. While I haven’t a plan to develop an awareness for an internet station, the tiny fraction that is a specific niche is technically substantial considering you have the world as your audience potential. Still the cost of bandwidth and licensing costs far outweigh the revenue potential even for the mass appeal format.

I personally know a fair number of non-commercial FM broadcasters and a great many, especially smaller market operators. In virtually every instance, they mirror the typical business: they struggle to bring in the cash they need and wish they could get more so they could offer more to their listeners.

This reality is fairly common: in a remote market, the only radio station in a county had 78 of the 80 businesses in town advertising on the station. Everybody listened. They did as well if not a little better than the local county newspaper. They were still satellite delivered country because their income only allowed for the husband and wife plus a couple of high school part time employees. They were doing everything right but people tend to think radio is a cash cow. It almost never is and reality is far less than you might suspect. The owner of this station dreamed of having live jocks and doing radio the way he remembered growing up, taking requests and being the social hub of the county. He never saw that happen. He’s computer driven now and has a guy voice track a morning show. It isn’t because people are listening to Sirius/XM or streaming a distant station. The locals really do listen to him and you hear his station everywhere you go from the Sonic to the City Office or Insurance Agency and Grocery Store. It is not that his ad dollars go elsewhere. It’s just reality in most cases. Simply put, fewer dollars roll in than many imagine, even when you do everything right. Imagine if he programmed a niche format.
 
The owner of this station dreamed of having live jocks and doing radio the way he remembered growing up, taking requests and being the social hub of the county. He never saw that happen. He’s computer driven now and has a guy voice track a morning show. It isn’t because people are listening to Sirius/XM or streaming a distant station. The locals really do listen to him and you hear his station everywhere you go from the Sonic to the City Office or Insurance Agency and Grocery Store. It is not that his ad dollars go elsewhere. It’s just reality in most cases. Simply put, fewer dollars roll in than many imagine, even when you do everything right. Imagine if he programmed a niche format.

And niche formats aren't nationally distributed via satellite, either. So there's a huge additional operating expense right there.
 
Avid Listener seems to think that after the masses are served by the dog pile of stations fighting for those listeners that a niche format can work nicely. I gather Avid Listener has never been in radio and has no clue about the business of running a station.

Some people think they know how to do our job better than we do.
 
In commercial radio everyone thinks sales happen by being a good radio sales person. This is true, but a good radio sales person knows they have to fit the sales box. In other words, you cannot control the client and you cannot control the recipient of the messenger. The radio sales person does not change thinking or habits but persuades the client by demonstrating their product can help them build awareness and make more money. A good radio sales person knows his audience and what needs to be done to reach that listener with the message carefully crafted to get them to hear it.

In rated markets any business of the size that can afford to advertise in radio has an advertising agency that makes buying decisions. Those agencies have to justify their decisions, so they use the ratings to document they made the wise choice of buying the right top rated stations. There is never any cash for a niche station. I’ve been in that position and on a first name basis with many media buyers who never once said yes.

With the necessary apologies for inserting a second personal anecdote in a post today, I'd like to roll the time machine back 50 years. That is before satellite radio, before the Internet and in a time when an international long distance call had to be placed a day in advance to set up the circuit!

In 1964 I built the first Top 40 station in a market of nearly 1 million. There were already over 30 fulltime, full coverage AMs in the market but all did some form of block programming. My station had live DJs, jingles, vastly superior audio quality and the only non-stop hit based music format. But it had no ratings. Advertisers and agencies said, "it has no listeners". There were no ratings yet, so there was nothing to sell the agencies. Many potential advertisers said "it only has kids as listeners" and in the industry the station was called "the pocket station" because of the perception that only teens with pocket transistor radios were listening. The initial reality was that some crazy kid had built himself a radio station that was destined to fail. We sold less that $100 in advertising for the first 6 months, so we essentially did a non-stop music sweep of over 180 days.

But it was not a hobby. I was running out of money. About 20 people's lives depended on my paycheck. The station was perceived as serving a niche... made up of kids no advertiser wanted to reach. You can only sell perceptions if they are highly positive ones.

Then came the ratings. In this case, the perception of a niche station was proven wrong. The station was absolutely #1 and dominated the middle and upper income segments. It was sold out, 24/7, within a month. The niche was actually the majority in the target audience group.

But the point is that, without ratings and listeners, you can build it and they will not come. Just saying that there is a pool of unserved or unsatisfied listeners does not mean they all want the same exact thing. In fact, if they feel unserved, there is likely no consensus among the malcontents. And as you point out, unless you have a provable or responsive audience base of some size, there is no economic model for a true niche station.

Today, in nearly every population center, we have ratings. We know what is a niche and what is not. There are no "uncovered" major niche areas because all manner of experimentation over the years, from "Eclectic Oriented Rock" to college stations, has tested most of the possibilities and proven them to not be viable.
 
Some people think they know how to do our job better than we do.

And they stand out like a priest at a Sons of Anarchy sit-down.
 
Some people think they know how to do our job better than we do.

All I can say is I hear what is on the air, what's programmed by the suits, and it sucks. When someone is cranking out a piss-poor product, it's only natural to think that someone must surely be able to do it better. Based on what I hear every time I turn on any music format radio station, I cannot believe that the idiots responsible for what comes out of the speakers could possibly be the best at what they do. If you suits were so good, then your product wouldn't suck!
 
If you suits were so good, then your product wouldn't suck!

You say what we do sucks. You are one person. Millions love what we do, and listen every day, so obviously we're doing a good job.

You have champagne taste and beer money. We will continue to serve our millions of satisfied customers.

As I have said many times, I'm not interested in selling you anything. You're welcome to seek what you want elsewhere.
 
If you suits were so good, then your product wouldn't suck!

If our product "sucked", we wouldn't have any listeners at all. The fact that we do proves you're down to blowing smoke now.

Argument is over. You lose. Ghost of Don Pardo, tell the losing contestant what his consolation prizes are.
 
Obviously we have ruffled Avid's feathers with facts and he has had to lower himself by trying to verbally insult us. We are not insulted but have only deepened our impression that you are ignorant about radio and feel you must lash out at others. The value of your posts continues to crater with posts like your last one. Funny thing is you want to hold us accountable for something we have n control over. Our jobs depend on producing the results our bosses demand. And we must be doing something right because we have the job doing this and you don't.
 
Ghost of Don Pardo, tell the losing contestant what his consolation prizes are.

"Thanks, K.M. Avid will receive...
A year's supply of seven-year locusts!
A bottle of Aqua Velveeta, the after-shave that smells like cheese!
A ride on a Goodyear Blimp!
And a case of Oatie Bloaties, the cereal that just lies there and soaks up milk!
Now, back to you!"

- The Ghost of Don Pardo.
 
You say what we do sucks. You are one person. Millions love what we do, and listen every day, so obviously we're doing a good job.

Don't let your overblown ego get in the way of the facts. Millions find that what you do is less objectionable than silence. They don't "love" what you do, they barely like it, but they like the other options just a little bit less. The best thing that the radio industry can say about itself is, "We suck, but right now all the other options suck a little bit worse, so we still come out on top."

If our product "sucked", we wouldn't have any listeners at all. The fact that we do proves you're down to blowing smoke now.

Hogwash. You still have listeners because the other options are less desirable to people who are too lazy to bother popping a CD into the dash, or using some other alternative for background noise. As the saying goes, "In the land of blind men, the one-eyed man is king".
 
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Don't let your overblown ego get in the way of the facts. Millions find that what you do is less objectionable than silence.

They have lots of other choices. You may not be aware of them, but there are lots of choices besides silence. Still, the fact is as long as they listen, it doesn't mater if they love it, like it, or put up with it. My grandparents were married for 60 years, and they could barely stand each other. I'd say they were not alone in that experience. I'm fine with that legacy.

No one ever promised you anything with the radio. No one promised that you'd love it. You come "at will" as our lawyers put it.
 
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Avid's attitude reminds me of a story from the old days of network radio...

For something over 20 years, a big-time, old-line industrial company had sponsored a weekly hour of "potted-palm" music on one of the networks. Piano recitals, string quartets, obese sopranos bellowing Wagner. The show never did well in the ratings, but the company wanted to portray themselves (and their founding family) as "patrons of the arts."

The sponsor insisted the show be on in "prime time," and of course the network was well paid for carrying it; but it caused so much listener "tune-out" that the network found it impossible to sell the hour that followed it. Finally, the president of the network took his case to the sponsor, the latest generation of the company's family owners.

He recommended the show be moved to Sunday afternoons instead. "Impossible!" said the sponsor, "Nobody listens to the radio Sunday afternoons!" The network man asked "What do you mean?" and got the answer, "Everyone in the world is out playing polo!"
 
While Avid is but one person, he theoretically represents many more. Radio's chosen method for counting listeners proves that.

You are getting UNFILTERED opinion from him and others. In the grand scheme, I think it is more valuable to listen, than to try to quiet them.

Members here (pros, listeners, fans and enthusiasts alike) should not have an "us vs them" mentality. Some of the criticism is valid, some not, and yes some of it is old and repetitive (funny how the accolades never get old though... I'm sure you would never argue for someone to stop saying you are doing a "good job"). But even based on Avid's posts you cannot assume to know what he knows or doesn't know about radio. He is arguing certain points and you can disagree, that is clear. It does not mean he knows less than you.. neither does the fact that he is not an employed member of the radio community. The fact is that this community is not supposed to be an echo chamber. Differing opinions are welcomed and encouraged. It fosters discussion. It does not have to turn into flame wars, insults and "hatred". You guys get to control that... then we moderate it.

Both sides need to remember: you will attract more with honey than vinegar.

Listeners and enthusiasts are RADIO'S CUSTOMERS (in the grand scheme...). For the radio pros, remember your title: "Professional". Please act like it. I'll use an example for the pros here to consider when replying to the listeners, fans and radio enthusiasts:

If you were a chef and was told by a patron that you did not make the Shepherd's Pie correctly because it was not made the way his grandmother made it, would you kick him out of your restaurant telling him to find another restaurant or open his own? Or would you find a way to make him happy? Even if that simply meant saying his grandmother must have made it the best, and you certainly appreciate his input. You don't have to emphasize your recipe is working just fine. because for THAT customer, it isn't.

It's not a perfect analogy. But I hope the point is taken. No one (or very, very few) will be upset with exceptional PERSONAL customer service.

Now, you are welcome to pick apart my post to tell me I am wrong or misguided... : )
 
The fact is that this community is not supposed to be an echo chamber.
Boz, I realize this is going to be in a different context, but when someone like Avid repeats the same things over and over, insulting people in the process, is that any less of an "echo chamber" than what you're trying to guard against happening?
 
You are getting UNFILTERED opinion from him and others. In the grand scheme, I think it is more valuable to listen, than to try to quiet them.

Avid is unlike anyone who I have come across in 55 years of doing radio. He is not even close to any group of people I have encountered.

Setting aside his need to demean and belittle everyone in the industry, his programming wishes and opinions have never, ever been seen in the hundreds of thousands of interviews, focus groups and perceptual or quantitative research I have done.

There is no significant group of listeners that he represents. He is the outlier who makes other outliers look mainstream.

The strange thing is that everything he thinks is missing from radio has been done. And failed. Miserably.

His latest series of "you are all morons and suits" rants seems to suggest a wider classic rock playlist with lots of undiscovered newer songs. The road is littered with careers that ended while trying to do that, starting with the Eclectic Oriented Rock concept decades ago. Yet when it is explained that we have done what he suggests and that it failed, he then goes off on the invalidity of ratings, the corruption of trade association and the like.

He's not rational, he is contentious and he will not discuss without insulting and telling us we are fools. He's a living insult to all of us who try every day to do good radio for as many people as possible.
 
Boz, I realize this is going to be in a different context, but when someone like Avid repeats the same things over and over, insulting people in the process, is that any less of an "echo chamber" than what you're trying to guard against happening?

And how is repeating "We know best because we've been doing things the same way over and over and over forever so shut up" any different? And just how often do you think you folks can keep insulting other people without them responding back in kind?

Not really. If a person likes what we do and participates, then he's a customer. If he's made a decision that what we do is crap, then he's ceased to be a customer.

In retail, there are customers who buy from you. Those are customers you want to keep. Then there are the customers you chased away for one reason or another who used to buy from you. Those are the customers that you want to get to come back.
 
Then there are the customers you chased away for one reason or another who used to buy from you. Those are the customers that you want to get to come back.

What I've found (and I spent some time in retail) is that those who used to buy probably won't be coming back. They have moved on to other things. And I'm fine with that.

We haven't "chased" anyone away, but the reality is that customers change, they age out of the demo, their interests change, and our product line changes. So no, we're not "doing things the same way over and over." If we were, you might be happy. There comes a time when our product line no longer suits or interests our former customers, and we instead have to focus on our new customers. That's where we are now. And that's a very typical generational adjustment that radio has made every 30 or so years.
 
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