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Classical HD

My wife and I were on the road recently trying to visit the kids before Thankgiving. I happen to be a devotee of the "Middle Ages Top 40" (a dying format - but that is another issue competely.

In PHX we were listening to KBCH and my wife commonted on how good the sound quality was. I looked down and the radio was indcating a pure digital HD-1 signal. When we left and at about 40 miles out, the radio lost the digital (seamlessly, BTW) and the regular FM Stereo sounded so much paler (particularly the Bass response).

The same was true driving into LA (On both KUSC, and their Palm Springs re-broadcast). The sound quality was so much better in pure digital mode then in FM stereo.

It may be that classical is the only music format where you can actually hear the difference but the HD digital sound quality sounds much better that just the analog FM stereo.
 
Codecs can be tweaked to handle one type of music or another; generally one of the most difficult to reproduce genres is classical, and they tend to be the most vocal (IMHO) group against lossy compression for their music.

Listening in the car probably does work to mask the subtleties of the format that one listening on headphones might easily pick out. Or maybe IBOC was tweaked for classical since NPR has been such an advocate. Their Classical 24 channel, which often winds up on an HD-2, sounds acceptable to me, but I am not an aficionado of the music.

As an aside, it is said that electronic music is easiest to encode but by my ears, almost all lossy compression schemes sound problematic no matter the format.
 
If that classical station had no HD subchannels then it was at the full 96k quality. Add a subchannel and then it sounds worse than the analog.
 
K6JHU said:
My wife and I were on the road recently trying to visit the kids before Thankgiving. I happen to be a devotee of the "Middle Ages Top 40" (a dying format - but that is another issue competely.

In PHX we were listening to KBCH and my wife commonted on how good the sound quality was. I looked down and the radio was indcating a pure digital HD-1 signal. When we left and at about 40 miles out, the radio lost the digital (seamlessly, BTW) and the regular FM Stereo sounded so much paler (particularly the Bass response).

The same was true driving into LA (On both KUSC, and their Palm Springs re-broadcast). The sound quality was so much better in pure digital mode then in FM stereo.

It may be that classical is the only music format where you can actually hear the difference but the HD digital sound quality sounds much better that just the analog FM stereo.


You heard things correctly, my friend!

HD sounds equally well with other formats. It's just that many classical listeners have the discriminating ears, appreciation for total static free reception, dynamic range and frequency response needed to maximize HD listening. Your HD/analog comparisons are also accurate. Solid 40 mile classical HD signal is very impressive!

Enjoy!


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The Phoenix station had two really really compressed sub-channels. So most of the bits went to the HD-1. KUSC is solely an HD-1 signal. That is why they were so good.
 
iyiyi said:
Solid 40 mile classical HD signal is very impressive!

I wish there was an easy way to tell who is using the full legal limit for HD and who is still at 1%. I think the full tilt (5 or 6% of analog, or whatever it is) makes a big difference with the dropouts being greatly reduced if not almost completely eliminated within the station's 60 dBu analog contour.

I'm in the Mobile-Pensacola area and can get 40-50 mile reception with the Insignia HD portables, but it's very choppy moving inside a car due to the attenuation of the headphone cord antenna being inside, not out and properly matched. We do also have favorable flat terrain and most stations (except the NPR affiliate) running 100 kW at 1,500-1,700 foot HAATs.

At 5% I can only imagine how far they'd reach and how much more solid it would be in the concrete canyons along the beach (lots of tall condos on one side of the road makes havoc for analog but HD is much better.)
 
Classical WRR in Dallas uses the full HD bandwidth, and it too sounds very good. It has no sub-channels. That is the exception. The big sell for HD is to have additional channels. My personal experience is they give additional content at the expense of quality. Math is math, and there is no fooling the fact that there is only so much bandwidth to use. The more you divide it, the worse it sounds.

These days, I don't believe that are many people who give a rats patootie about how things sound, as long as it is "good enough" to sound OK on some $10 earbuds. Loud seems to be "better" to most folks. Except for the people who subscribe to "The Absolute Sound," most think the seven channel speaker system they bought at Walmart for $199.00 is really great.

I grew up in the era when it was cool to have a fantastic stereo system. People actually invited friends over to hear their new (and sometimes, expensive) gear. Some of it was really good and you could actually hear subtle differences. It was a lot of fun, but I'm afraid those days are long gone. Very few people will buy HD to get higher fidelity. If they do, they will be disappointed when they hear a station that is doing HD-2 or HD-3. It simply does not measure up.
 
"Here in Portland, the classical station sounds beautiful over HD Radio."

But it sounded way better before they started multicasting. Please refer back to what Nick wrote.

(I still think OPB's behind it. Gotta be.)
 
Never been to Portland, so I can't comment about radio there. WGBH here in Boston runs jazz on the HD 1. They simulcast classical WCRB on 'GBH HD 2. They simulcast yet a third station from Cape Cod on 'GBH HD 3. All 3 HDs sound much better than their respective analogs. What am I supposed to be missing here?
 
Darth_vader said:
"Here in Portland, the classical station sounds beautiful over HD Radio."

But it sounded way better before they started multicasting. Please refer back to what Nick wrote.

(I still think OPB's behind it. Gotta be.)
All Classical has nothing to do with OPB. You're thinking of KMHD (the Jazz station).
 
iyiyi said:
Never been to Portland, so I can't comment about radio there. WGBH here in Boston runs jazz on the HD 1. They simulcast classical WCRB on 'GBH HD 2. They simulcast yet a third station from Cape Cod on 'GBH HD 3. All 3 HDs sound much better than their respective analogs. What am I supposed to be missing here?

Having never heard any of those stations in HD, I can't offer an opinion, other than ask the question, "What do you think is "much better" and why?" I'll grant you that the apparent signal to noise ratio could be greater in HD, but even that will vary quite a bit depending on the programming source.

Jazz, especially modern heavily electronic jazz would be a good choice for an HD-2 channel, since it's hard for most people to tell what they aren't hearing. On the other hand, Classical, especially strings and piano are much harder to pull off. As far as I know, just about every codec, including HD's "fakes" the frequencies above 5 KHz or so (sometimes lower). That's because the highest fundamental note on a standard piano is A7, which is 3520 Hz. The rest is all harmonics. On pop music or jazz, recreating those harmonics is a pretty good illusion. It is a lot harder to pull off on acoustic instruments that have rich high frequency harmonics.

I suspect that if you did an a-b comparison between the original program material and the version delivered by HD, you would be shocked at what your aren’t hearing.
 
Chuck said:
iyiyi said:
Never been to Portland, so I can't comment about radio there. WGBH here in Boston runs jazz on the HD 1. They simulcast classical WCRB on 'GBH HD 2. They simulcast yet a third station from Cape Cod on 'GBH HD 3. All 3 HDs sound much better than their respective analogs. What am I supposed to be missing here?

Having never heard any of those stations in HD, I can't offer an opinion, other than ask the question, "What do you think is "much better" and why?" I'll grant you that the apparent signal to noise ratio could be greater in HD, but even that will vary quite a bit depending on the programming source.

Jazz, especially modern heavily electronic jazz would be a good choice for an HD-2 channel, since it's hard for most people to tell what they aren't hearing. On the other hand, Classical, especially strings and piano are much harder to pull off. As far as I know, just about every codec, including HD's "fakes" the frequencies above 5 KHz or so (sometimes lower). That's because the highest fundamental note on a standard piano is A7, which is 3520 Hz. The rest is all harmonics. On pop music or jazz, recreating those harmonics is a pretty good illusion. It is a lot harder to pull off on acoustic instruments that have rich high frequency harmonics.

I suspect that if you did an a-b comparison between the original program material and the version delivered by HD, you would be shocked at what your aren’t hearing.


Correct on the better S/N ratio. Far more dynamic range (analog sounds flatter, not as lively), crisper, cleaner audio without the ubiquitous and continual "pebble bed of static" underlying the quiet passages plagueing analog classical broadcasts. When you reach the signal strength point that HD blends back to analog you notice the diminished high frequency audio (less bright) and less separation. The analog must blend high frequency audio with mono on weaker signals to mask noise, whereas the digital HD sounds clear right up to the point of signal dropout.

The second paragraph is not relevant. "If it sounds good, buy it!" is the better philosophy here.

You are welcome to do A/B comparisons. I believe you'll find that the crisp and clean, noise free and superior dynamic range of even the HD2 digital audio of a well run station will sound better than the analog signal of an equally well run station. Please remember that the analog stereo noise level increases 200 times the level of mono. This rapidly makes itself apparent the farther from the transmitter you go. Please try to be objective here because NO man made device can ever approach the quality of live!


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Chuck said:
I suspect that if you did an a-b comparison between the original program material and the version delivered by HD, you would be shocked at what your aren’t hearing.

Oh absolutely, but remember we're talking about radio here. The number of listeners engaged with radio listening at such a critical level is "a number rapidly approaching zero". Radio is more of a background/entertainment medium where quality takes a back seat.

In this regard, HD's benefits of lower noise floor and greater separation don't do any good.

Put on the headphones and listen to HD critically and those are traits to appreciate, sure… but then you notice the fake highs that sparkle, crackle and warble as all low bitrate lossy codecs do to one degree or another and the jig is up.

My experience is that few people actually notice those artifacts of lossy compression. The early days of pirated music online was in the form of 96 to 128 kbps mp3 files, often encoded with horrid quality with Xing encoders, and the overwhelming response to any comment that "this sounds crap!" was "sounds fine to me!" in response.

So in that regard, many won't even notice the bad aspect of HD and instead will be driven mad by the weak signal/dropouts issue instead.

For those of us who DO hear the effects of lossy compression and are appalled by them, well we might as well just crawl back under our rocks because no one else cares.
 
Music on an HD-2 makes my teeth hurt. A pure HD-1 approaches tolerable, but once you start taking away the bits it goes to painful in a hurry. Sorry, but I'm one of those golden eared bastards that can hear.
 
iyiyi said:
Never been to Portland, so I can't comment about radio there. WGBH here in Boston runs jazz on the HD 1. They simulcast classical WCRB on 'GBH HD 2. They simulcast yet a third station from Cape Cod on 'GBH HD 3. All 3 HDs sound much better than their respective analogs. What am I supposed to be missing here?

I listen (ed) to WGBH on a very good hifi system, their HD-1 sounds very good but then again so does their analog signal, I don't think anyone would ever notice the difference on a table radio or in a car. Their HD-2 sounded like krap to me.
 
"All Classical has nothing to do with OPB. You're thinking of KMHD (the Jazz station)."

No, I wasn't thinking of KMHD; I know all about that travesty. (Refer back to my similar conspiracy theory on http://feedback.pdxradio.com/topic/kqac-899-hd2 .) And even that sounded better than than it does now, before they started multiplexing. Classical music, like jazz (yes, that's YOU, KMHD) needs to be transmitted at no less than full bandwidth. And transmitted in a lossless codec like PCM or Wavpack which, unfortunately, is probably completely infeasible under the current conditions.

All that needs to happen now is for KBOO to start multiplexing, then Vancouver/Portland will no longer have any crystal-clear full-bitrate Ibiquity stations.
 
iyiyi said:
. Please remember that the analog stereo noise level increases 200 times the level of mono. This rapidly makes itself apparent the farther from the transmitter you go. Please try to be objective here because NO man made device can ever approach the quality of live!
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For a starter, FM Stereo degrades the signal by about 10 db, which is a factor of 10, not 200. Secondly, most modern car radios deal with this by blending to mono as the strength degrades. In other words, about the time a HD channel starts to cut in and out, the analog channel reverts to is mono on most people's radios. So, when the HD signal falls back on the analog channel, the comparison is drastic, since at the very least, you have gone from stereo to mono. That's probably why some people think HD sounds so much better. In fact, most people with analog radios are probably listening to mono in their car, and don't even notice. It beats silence, which is what you get when a HD-2 or HD-3 channel craps out. I think that is a reasonable trade off.

To further compensate for analog FM's shortcomings, a lot of radios actually lower the volume as the signal strength decreases. That is done so you won't notice the noise and multipath problems. It seems to work, except if you are switching from HD to analog. The analog signal is likely to be 6 db lower in level than the HD signal. Maybe more. Since “louder is better” a lot of people would think the HD signal is better, even though, in many instances, critical listening will reveal otherwise. The folks who bring us Sirius-XM play this trick with car radios. On every one I've ever heard, the XM feed is louder than any analog signal. The old “louder is better” trick is at work once again. It is an effective sales pitch.

You asked “What am I missing?” Do you own or engineer for a radio station that is not a part of a large corporate group? I do. I own a FM station that is co-channeled with a HD station about 135 miles due west of me. Under some atmospheric conditions, if you approach (but not cross over) our 60 dbu “Protected Contour,” the co-channeled HD-FM will capture the radio and start playing their programming, rather than mine. I feel that is a problem. Wouldn't you?

Further the HD signal noticeably degrades the primary analog signal of the station. If everyone had a digital radio, that would not be a problem, but 99.98% of all listening is still analog, so it is a problem. It's kind of like shooting yourself in the foot.

I have several acquaintances in the noncommercial radio business (yes, it is a business, even if it is done with the best of philanthropic intentions). The noncommercial band is much more crowded due to short spacing, than the commercial band. Several of them report that adjacent channel HD stations have seriously cut their coverage areas, and by FCC rules, there is nothing they can do about it. The problem of decreased coverage translates to decreased pledges, thus lower income. Most of these stations run on a very tight budget to begin with. With today's economy, things are bad enough. Having their listener base reduced due to HD interference is making things very difficult for them.

As a business owner (Who happens to be in the FM Broadcasting biz), the ultimate problem I see is little or no return on investment. At least not in my lifetime. The only justification I can come up with for converting to HD is so I can jam the signal of the offending co-channel station that is causing me problems. That's hardly a win-win proposition. Don't misunderstand, I'm actually enthusiastic about the idea of Digital Radio. It is our future. My problem is with the current system. We deserve better and certainly could have done better.
 
Zach said:
iyiyi said:
Solid 40 mile classical HD signal is very impressive!

I'm in the Mobile-Pensacola area and can get 40-50 mile reception with the Insignia HD portables, but it's very choppy moving inside a car due to the attenuation of the headphone cord antenna being inside, not out and properly matched. We do also have favorable flat terrain and most stations (except the NPR affiliate) running 100 kW at 1,500-1,700 foot HAATs.

Yes, but I'll bet the analog signal is useful for 80-90 miles with that power and HAAT. Since most FM coverage is circular (Yes I know Pensacola is on the coast so a lot of coverage is wasted) you are losing a lot of coverage with HD.

Circles are amazing things. Sixth grade math will tell you that area equals pi (3.414) times the radius squared. So a 45 mile radius is about 6913 square miles. 80 miles radius equals a bit more than 21,849 square miles. That is a HUGE difference in coverage. Do you really want to pay money to throw that away? Just wondering....
 
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