Clear Channel, CBS, Citadel, Cumulus, and Radio One.......

[bucwhyl]

Are you satisfied with your current formats in this market? Obviously you are because there is nothing to discuss on this board.

 

[jeff715]

Is this a joke? No, No, No & No! :

 

[dantheman]

Hello All,
  Formats in DFW radio market SUCK!!! ??? We need ALL players in the market to look at new formats....or...fix the problems with the ones they have in the DFW area now.  We need stations PD's to look at Top years in the market with there freq. and format.  I like stations to go back to the middle 1980's to 1990's.  I like the way radio sounds back then....I miss it.  We need HD radio in all cars and walkman radios then you could have a lot more formats and way to format from the past.  This board is GREAT to TALK about RADIO infor. and problems....BUT the #1 problem is the radio companies and station PD's WILL NOT LISTEN to US here on the boards.  Radio NETWORKS!!!! ??? LISTEN TO US!!!

Dan-THE-MAN!!!
The North Texas Radio MAN!!!
DFW RADIO NEED HELP NOW!!!!

 

[MikeShannon914]

Beating a very dead horse here...unfortunately. The groups will go with what's safest and what's the easiest thing their sales staffs can peddle.

Again, my laundry list of unused, forgotten and ignored formats for DFW (in no particular order) that could have potential here:

Modern/Active Rock

Modern Classic Rock

Contemporary Gospel Music

All-News

Smooth Jazz

All 80s

Light AC Gold (ala Memories)

Alternative that's truly alt...no modern/active rock or krunk mixed in (as the Edge does to appease former Eagle listeners)

Comedy

Modern Classic Country (ala Sunny 94.9)

An oldies station with a different 300 songs (speaking of, did I hear that Chuck Brinkman was headed to some station in Jacksonville, TX now? Someone do tell, please)

Moderate Talk (non-conservative, non-religious)

Women's Talk

Yeah, yeah...many of these have been tried here, but most (if not all) were not marketed correctly, if at all. I give CC a little credit for trying out Lone Star 92.5, but there's a LOT more PROVEN formats out there that would have been better choices, instead of taking a big risk on something that hasn't been tried here since the mid-1970s.

Something else missing: Stations with strong personalities in all dayparts, who are given the freedom (AND TIME) to develop a real rapport with their audience. Also, stations that are programmed and run by people that came out of operations and NOT sales.

One needn't look further than the format lists on XM or Sirius for ideas that would work.

 

[Robert Bass]

There oughta be a law that says sales people cannot become programmers without more qualifications, such as learning from a PD that knows a thing or two.

But as Mike stated, we are stuck with the cheap and simple approach by the big boys.

R

 

[MikeShannon914]

You're correct, Robert...it's all about bean-counting and doing it on the cheap; the listener is expected to take whatever the corp's choose to put on the air...and we let it keep happening by still tuning in and supporting their sponsors. And who else is more qualified and more in touch with revenue? The guy from sales. I can guess that such a person wouldn't WANT "interference" from a programmer telling them how to run things. God forbid, the PD might want the station to be "fun" or "different"...and how would THAT look to the stockholders or upper management? There's no trust there, not on the local level at least. Chapman, Francis, McLendon...all innovators that, when they left broadcasting, the bar was lowered. Competition is no longer an issue...it's all about revenue and getting a respectable slice of the pie and little else.

It's all played close to the vest now, hence the lament of the old (or older) radio hands on the board. The corps worry about satellite taking a chunk out of revenue...wonder why? Because listeners can get that "fix" they used to get from terrestrial radio, they hear songs that terrestrial radio doesn't consider safe or 'tested,' and some channels even offer chatter, 'boss jocks' and other things that make listening fun...AND they somehow do it without the benefit of local interaction...apparently an acceptable tradeoff for many. Oh, and no commercials helps things, too.

A lot of us consider the old KVIL as the benchmark of how to do music radio. You know, if it means playing a spoken-word spot over the intro of a song, or editing out a little of a song to make more room for spots, I can deal with that now. That means less of a commercial load on each break (unless you're greedy, but that would NEVER happen, of course) and more time for those cherished morning-drive-quality-in-all-dayparts jocks to bond with the listener. Oh, and run some contests that reel in listeners and push up the TSL...case in point, the old "People's Choice" hourly phone call/jackpot was perhaps the biggest (and cheapest) brainstorm the station ever had. And there was an "ENERGY" about the station...you tuned in to get the pulse of whatever was going on in DFW, and you knew they'd be on top of it. KVIL used to be a DFW woman's best friend. Now it's just background noise in an office or a car. Giving away purses or perhaps one car in a national contest does not cut it. Listeners aren't that stupid.

You've got plenty of talent out there who's more than ready to do it 'the old way' if given the chance again. If sales will stick to sales and do their jobs properly and thoroughly, the rest WILL fall into place.

 

[salemjedi54]

Beating a very dead horse here...unfortunately. The groups will go with what's safest and what's the easiest thing their sales staffs can peddle.

Again, my laundry list of unused, forgotten and ignored formats for DFW (in no particular order) that could have potential here:

Modern/Active Rock

Modern Classic Rock

Contemporary Gospel Music

All-News

Smooth Jazz

All 80s

Light AC Gold (ala Memories)

Alternative that's truly alt...no modern/active rock or krunk mixed in (as the Edge does to appease former Eagle listeners)

Comedy

Modern Classic Country (ala Sunny 94.9)

An oldies station with a different 300 songs (speaking of, did I hear that Chuck Brinkman was headed to some station in Jacksonville, TX now? Someone do tell, please)

Moderate Talk (non-conservative, non-religious)

Women's Talk

Yeah, yeah...many of these have been tried here, but most (if not all) were not marketed correctly, if at all. I give CC a little credit for trying out Lone Star 92.5, but there's a LOT more PROVEN formats out there that would have been better choices, instead of taking a big risk on something that hasn't been tried here since the mid-1970s.

Something else missing: Stations with strong personalities in all dayparts, who are given the freedom (AND TIME) to develop a real rapport with their audience. Also, stations that are programmed and run by people that came out of operations and NOT sales.

One needn't look further than the format lists on XM or Sirius for ideas that would work.

Add Black Talk to your list....

 

[MikeShannon914]

One more note...if you think it's bad now, wait until the Hal Jays and Terry Dorseys and Tom Joyners of the radio world retire. Take away the need for competition in the mornings and see what you end up with. Commercials with brief interludes of music, and a $10 an hour board op/"jock" running things. They already diluted the term "afternoon drive," so you can bet mornings will be next. But think about ALL that money they'll save!!

 

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

There oughta be a law that says sales people cannot become programmers without more qualifications, such as learning from a PD that knows a thing or two.

There is, my friend. You mean, you didn't get that "Hand guide to the Conciliatory Consultant" memo in radio school?

 

[Robert Bass]

There oughta be a law that says sales people cannot become programmers without more qualifications, such as learning from a PD that knows a thing or two.

There is, my friend. You mean, you didn't get that "Hand guide to the Conciliatory Consultant" memo in radio school?

Nope... In fact when I was in radio school, there was no paperwork whatsoever. All we kids had to do was push buttons for about an hour, five days a week. ;D

R

 

[henderson_s454]

Obviously I'm NOT the only person who feels this way about the quality of radio in Dallas/Fort Worth. I hate the way that most stations bypass the "good stuff" - and by using that term, I am referring to the musical variety - for "C&C" purposes (C&C would refer to "Commercials and Crud"). Until reading this particular topic just a second ago, I really didn't know what was going on - until the bulk of you guys mentioned something about most of the "programming" people having moved up in that department from SALES! I'm not sure what the people in corporate thought about this when they did it, other than, "Oh, we'll bring in more advertisers, not to mention the fact that we'll save a ton of money in the process!" But when they did it, things went DOWNHILL from there.

All I'm saying is that, while qualified programmers can be hired from within a radio station, it's probably NOT a really good idea to hire those people from the sales department because all they're going to do is bypass the loyal listener in favor of the advertiser - and then you end up with formats like "Sunny 97.1" that not only KILL legendary formats like The Eagle, but make those aforementioned loyal listeners VERY upset - like that switch did a number of Eagle fans like my brother and a few other individuals.

 

[TheRover]

Obviously I'm NOT the only person who feels this way about the quality of radio in Dallas/Fort Worth. I hate the way that most stations bypass the "good stuff" - and by using that term, I am referring to the musical variety - for "C&C" purposes (C&C would refer to "Commercials and Crud"). Until reading this particular topic just a second ago, I really didn't know what was going on - until the bulk of you guys mentioned something about most of the "programming" people having moved up in that department from SALES! I'm not sure what the people in corporate thought about this when they did it, other than, "Oh, we'll bring in more advertisers, not to mention the fact that we'll save a ton of money in the process!" But when they did it, things went DOWNHILL from there.

All I'm saying is that, while qualified programmers can be hired from within a radio station, it's probably NOT a really good idea to hire those people from the sales department because all they're going to do is bypass the loyal listener in favor of the advertiser - and then you end up with formats like "Sunny 97.1" that not only KILL legendary formats like The Eagle, but make those aforementioned loyal listeners VERY upset - like that switch did a number of Eagle fans like my brother and a few other individuals.

Loyal music lovers who listen, who have more than the very lowest of common denominator tastes, ie something other than Crud...... As long the advertising net keeps pulling in "the numbers of Crud listeners", then there really is no businnes reason to customize a station for "other" listeners, no matter how loyal, that would form a smaller group. I think they call this "Mob Rules", with no attempt to elevate.

Music that is culturally uplifting and enriching. It's out there, old and new..... but like the Guess Who songs laments.... "There's No Time Left For You...."

No time for a summer friend
No time for the love you send
Seasons change and so did I
You need not wonder why
You need not wonder why
There's no time left for you
No time left for you

 

[davideduardo]

I really didn't know what was going on - until the bulk of you guys mentioned something about most of the "programming" people having moved up in that department from SALES!

I've seen a lot of jocks and PDs go to sales, to make more money, but in 49 years in radio, I don't think I have ever seen anyone come from sales to programming.

 

[davideduardo]

Something else missing: Stations with strong personalities in all dayparts, who are given the freedom (AND TIME) to develop a real rapport with their audience.

Oh, like KLNO, KESS, KDXX, KFZO, KDOC, KNOR, etc? You completely ignored the largest ethnic group in Dallas, and their talent-filled programming.

Also, stations that are programmed and run by people that came out of operations and NOT sales.

Where did this idea come from? I don't personally know of anyone, past or present that has come from sales to programming... it's usually the other way, bucause that is how you get the house and the BMW. There may be an exception or two, but I have never even heard of a seller going to programming.

 

[davideduardo]

Loyal music lovers who listen, who have more than the very lowest of common denominator tastes, ie something other than Crud...... As long the advertising net keeps pulling in "the numbers of Crud listeners", then there really is no businnes reason to customize a station for "other" listeners, no matter how loyal, that would form a smaller group. I think they call this "Mob Rules", with no attempt to elevate.

It's called Mass Appeal. That is why the first five letters of "broadcasting" are there... it's about attracting as large an audience as you can, not as small an audience as you can.

By the way, not everyone has your taste or mine. To think that one has better taste than another, or to act elitist about it is doing nobody any good.

 

[MikeShannon914]

Well, David, I guess that's why we have YOU here, to update us on such affairs. No "slight" was intended, tho I know you're hyper-sensitive about such things. I do have to give the Hispanic audience a lot of credit, as they will leave a station in droves if they don't get what they need from it...and those stations HAVE to respond or else. Of course, the careless way that diaries are given (or not given) to a fair share of Hispanics, no wonder some of those stations can dip 2 points in one book...but if it keeps the stations on their toes, so be it.

Maybe I should re-state the earlier point about sales people going into programming. Upper management on the local level, and likely beyond, is what's filled with former sales people. THOSE people dictate what programming and all other departments are going to do. I can cite you several instances within CBS and CC and Citadel just in DFW where former salespeople and sales managers have been elevated to station management AND have varied levels of control over programming. Of course, these days, a lot of those programming edicts come from emails or faxes from corporate. No need to trust local instinct.

 

[davideduardo]

Well, David, I guess that's why we have YOU here, to update us on such affairs. No "slight" was intended, tho I know you're hyper-sensitive about such things. I do have to give the Hispanic audience a lot of credit, as they will leave a station in droves if they don't get what they need from it...and those stations HAVE to respond or else.

That is just what the PPM study of Hispanic listening patterns shows... considerably more "comparable level" listening to multiple stations, and lots of loyalty changes. This comes from having fewer choices, too, so many people are settling on one station or another although it does not fulfill their needs entirely.

Of course, the careless way that diaries are given (or not given) to a fair share of Hispanics,

Excuse me? The diarykeepers are recruited the same, no matter what the ethnicity. There are quotas by age, sex, geography and even language preference, so that is hardly careless.

no wonder some of those stations can dip 2 points in one book...but if it keeps the stations on their toes, so be it.

When you have very few competitors for a large group, small programming changes produce large results. In stable markets, like LA, moves of 0.5 are rare. In a market in flux, like Dallas Hispanic, the bounces will be very large.

Maybe I should re-state the earlier point about sales people going into programming. Upper management on the local level, and likely beyond, is what's filled with former sales people.

It's always been that way. Very few programmers became managers, mostly because they did not want to. I had to work my way from manager to GSM to programmer in reverse because the only way, inititally, I coud get to program was if I was manager in a smaller market.

[/quote] THOSE people dictate what programming and all other departments are going to do. I can cite you several instances within CBS and CC and Citadel just in DFW where former salespeople and sales managers have been elevated to station management AND have varied levels of control over programming. Of course, these days, a lot of those programming edicts come from emails or faxes from corporate. No need to trust local instinct.
[/quote]

Actually, the programming decisions are based on listener input, interpreted by people whose responsibility is protecting the asset value and, coincidentally, the jobs of everyone around. In today's radio, a programming decision is not taken by the GM alone... it is taken with the GM and the corporate management all deciding what is best. Even in the 60's and 70's, management decided on formats, then a PD with a track record int he decided on format was hired.

 

[MikeShannon914]

I'm not going to argue with you or take a lot of exceptions here, BUT, programming decisions based on listener input? I'm sure you don't mean that this is the sole source of research, but I can assure you that in DFW, stations like KLUV, KDMX, KDGE, KHKS, KDBN, WRR and KVIL are getting large numbers of listeners by default. There's nothing else competing with each of them directly, terrestrially, for their respective formats. If KLUV had a survey taker at the local mall asking folks if they thought a 300-song playlist was a great way to cover the entire history of pop oldies, I don't think the response would be positive. If you asked a large group of women if they wanted crossover country injected into their "light rock" on KVIL, I doubt most would. If you asked a group of mainstream teens and 20-somethings that weren't into CHR to voice their opinions about KDGE, it'd be either 'too much alternative mixed in with the active rock', or 'too much active rock mixed in with the alternative.' Jack's self-serving line about "Playing What We Want" pretty much sums up the entire dial these days.

Bottom line, the listeners, and mostly the white demo, are being fed an inferior, incomplete, fragmented and ill-researched music product that's designed to be advertiser- and stockholder-safe with no regard given for the "art" or for what might be creative, different, fun, exciting, community related, engaging or anything else, and we're dumb enough to keep listening (or are we?) For most of us, the radio is the most convenient way to receive sound. iPods don't have speakers, satellite is not very portable, and not all of us can afford new cars with all these luxuries built in (let alone HD.) So the masses are still basically stuck with AM and FM, and are getting very little in return for their TSL. Yeah, I know it's a business and it's all about the money. I just want something fair in exchange for my listening time.

Oh, and competition makes BOTH stations better...it's almost like a secret handshake agreement now between the corps to not compete with each other in this town.

Also, explain what the decades-long complaint has been by Hispanic stations about the samplings and diary distribution with Arbitron? You wrote this idea off as if it never existed.

 

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

I really didn't know what was going on - until the bulk of you guys mentioned something about most of the "programming" people having moved up in that department from SALES!

I've seen a lot of jocks and PDs go to sales, to make more money, but in 49 years in radio, I don't think I have ever seen anyone come from sales to programming.

DE, you are the supreme actuary in here... no question. But maybe your 49 years have taken you in different places, because I have seen sales guys get chummy with on-air folks... fill in for a a couple of mindless segments here and there... get the itch for "fandom"... and stay on-air. Rare, but it can happen.

Oh, and come down a few steps from the mountaintop. No one is acting elitist or egalitarian in here. It's OK to have different tastes for radio, and to be passionate about said tastes... I think that's also why it's called BROADcasting. ;D

 

[davideduardo]

DE, you are the supreme actuary in here... no question. But maybe your 49 years have taken you in different places, because I have seen sales guys get chummy with on-air folks... fill in for a a couple of mindless segments here and there... get the itch for "fandom"... and stay on-air. Rare, but it can happen.

I didn't mean to imply it did not happen... just that this was not a common happening. It's pretty common knowledge that the salespeople have a much better opportunity to make money than most on air folks, so there is not much monetary incentive. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who don't make it as sellers, and some may try the other side of the building.

Oh, and come down a few steps from the mountaintop. No one is acting elitist or egalitarian in here. It's OK to have different tastes for radio, and to be passionate about said tastes...

I've never posted that others were not entitled to their opinions. However, in lots of cases when opinions are based on misunderstanding of facts or history, it's appropriate to challenge that aspect. In another post today, I mentioned that there is no right way to do radio... there arelots of ways I might not do something but that work, and well. The difference is in that classic definition of insanity: trying the same fruitless action over and over and hoping for a different outcome. We also see that in radio, where a staiton or an individual does not look at the history of a format or an idea or concept to see if there is some information to be gleaned from prior attempts.