Clear Channel, CBS, Citadel, Cumulus, and Radio One.......

[davideduardo]

I'm not going to argue with you or take a lot of exceptions here, BUT, programming decisions based on listener input? I'm sure you don't mean that this is the sole source of research, but I can assure you that in DFW, stations like KLUV, KDMX, KDGE, KHKS, KDBN, WRR and KVIL are getting large numbers of listeners by default.

OK, here is a different perspective. Often, when a station gets good listening levels by default, it means the foratic concept is effective. It also means that a competitor may not be likely because there is a limited share for that same format, and dividing it without winning it all (seldom happens, which is why stories like the WRBQ and Power Pig battle in Tampa are so much fun) means there will be two stations with under a 2 share, and neither will make much money. That's why, for example, we did not see second and third smooth jazz stations springing up, even when the format was bigger than it is today... dividing a small share is not worth the effort.

I also think that the stations in question must do music and / or perceptual research. They maintain the position by providing what the listener wants and expects from them.

There's nothing else competing with each of them directly, terrestrially, for their respective formats.

With today's fragmentation, we don't see too many head on battles; they tend to be lose-lose situations. We see flanking, and searching for holes that develop as tastes splinter or change as listeners mature.

If KLUV had a survey taker at the local mall asking folks if they thought a 300-song playlist was a great way to cover the entire history of pop oldies, I don't think the response would be positive.

This is true, and it is why stations don't research that way. Even I would say that I wanted more variety than that or something to that effect. However, sit me and another 99 listeners to a station down and play me the songs, and I will tell you one by one which I want to hear a lot, a little and never. So will the rest of the room, and that is how we find a group of songs that are not so negative to parts of the audience as to drive them away. If there were more songs in any particular format, we would play them. There is no programming reason to reduce the playlist... the reasons all come from having the listeners score the songs individually.

If you asked a large group of women if they wanted crossover country injected into their "light rock" on KVIL, I doubt most would.

But if you played, for many of those women, sample hour mixes with and without the country elements, and added the individual possible songs to a test, you could tell the differece in song scores and intent to listen to each sample mix.

If you asked a group of mainstream teens and 20-somethings that weren't into CHR to voice their opinions about KDGE, it'd be either 'too much alternative mixed in with the active rock', or 'too much active rock mixed in with the alternative.'

Alternative and active are probably the biggest programming challenge. An associate has conducted tests on these listener groups, and it seems that, for every three songs, each one likes one, tolerates one, and hates the third. the problem is that they are not the same songs. This is where the iPod wins, unfortunately, because we have here a listener group made up of active individualists that share only minimal commonalities.

Bottom line, the listeners, and mostly the white demo, are being fed an inferior, incomplete, fragmented and ill-researched music product that's designed to be advertiser- and stockholder-safe with no regard given for the "art" or for what might be creative, different, fun, exciting, community related, engaging or anything else, and we're dumb enough to keep listening (or are we?)

Whew. That is hard to answer. We, as programmers, design formats that can generate audiences in demos that are salable. That means make the CHR Female 18-34 friendly, as the 12-17 don't sell spots. And make the talker as young as possible via talent and subjects, as the 55+ is definitely a hard sale to make. But we look also at how to make the product fun, within the mood of the format... and, from what folks at other companies tell me, within every tighter budgets. But things that get listenership get budgeted, hopefully. The good thing is that if things at some companies have gone too far, other companies will sieze the moment and whack them good, and the reaction will be for the competitor to improve the product. We hope...

Dumb station owners are not the product of consolidation. They are the product of ignoring the listener.

For most of us, the radio is the most convenient way to receive sound. iPods don't have speakers, satellite is not very portable, and not all of us can afford new cars with all these luxuries built in (let alone HD.) So the masses are still basically stuck with AM and FM, and are getting very little in return for their TSL. Yeah, I know it's a business and it's all about the money. I just want something fair in exchange for my listening time.

I would only say that the vast majority of listeners I talk to or my associates talk to like radio and are not as negative. Maybe the fact that you are on a radio board indicated much higher interest and expectations... or maybe your dissatisfaction brought you here. But board posters are not typical listeners.

Oh, and competition makes BOTH stations better...it's almost like a secret handshake agreement now between the corps to not compete with each other in this town.

I don't think this is the case. What you have are decisions based on research and analysis. If a format search shows that fragging KXXX will get only a 1.5 share, most will write it off as not a good idea. And if going head on with WZZZ will make both stations fail, that is not good either... think back to the country battles in many Texas markets in the early 90's and you see that there were just too many of 'em in the format for any to make real money.

Also, explain what the decades-long complaint has been by Hispanic stations about the samplings and diary distribution with Arbitron? You wrote this idea off as if it never existed.

The main diary based issue for nearly a decade was to have proportionality between English and Spanish dominant Hispanics. That was done two years ago, and the rest of the process is quite good, except for occasional issues that hit all staitons every onece in a while and are more related to things like what happens when you get that occasional kiss or bomb that is in the two standard error range... it's a poll, a survey. It is not a census, because we can't afford a census.

Prior to this, the only issue was getting Hispanics (as well as Blacks and 18-24's) to participate, and Arbitron developed DST and HDHA and HDBA areas and placement techniques to fix those issues... as problems arrise, as we have with ethnic PPM measurement, broadcasters will ask Arbitron to work on better procedures, which they tend to do in the long run.

 

[little1]

If KLUV had a survey taker at the local mall asking folks if they thought a 300-song playlist was a great way to cover the entire history of pop oldies, I don't think the response would be positive.

No, but if you asked those same listeners if they wanted to hear a song they weren't really familiar with during their 20 minute morning commute or 10 minute drive to lunch, they'd probably say no. And that's the point. Maybe you think 300 is too low. I just know I want to hear one of my favorite oldies...I want to hear Beatles, Stones, etc, not King Crimson or Lothar and the Hand People...

Bottom line, the listeners, and mostly the white demo, are being fed an inferior, incomplete, fragmented and ill-researched music product

Aren't you doing traffic at a news station? Didn't realize that that position gave you insight to what music stations in the market are doing research wise. So is the 'ill-reaserched" complete hyperbole, you talking out your 'A(buttocks)**", or do you have something to back that up.
I mean, I know of at least 3 music stations in this market that have recently completed some form of major research project (2 music tests and at least one perceptual), are you really telling us that in your position as a traffic reporter, you not only have access to 2 different radio groups research, but that that research is 'bad' enough to be charecterized as 'ill-researched'???

Oh, and competition makes BOTH stations better...it's almost like a secret handshake agreement now between the corps to not compete with each other in this town.

So explain why ABC/now Citadel and Susquehanna/Now Cumulus have been fighting a turf war battle over sports for the past 8 or 10 years?

 

[davideduardo]

Bottom line, the listeners, and mostly the white demo, are being fed...

I totally missed this one in my first reply, which is just as well since the response is not programming related.

Over 90% of Hispanics in the US are classified in the Census as "white" because "Hispanic" is not a race, but a cultural classification and even determined by a separate question in the Cenus since 1980. Prior to that date, there were no breaks in the Census for Hispanics (besides the fact that the term was redefined by the OMB just to classify a group of people with not much besides language in common) as nearly all were added into the "white" category.

There are white Hispanics, Black hispanics, Asian Hispanics and Indigenous Hispanics. So if you say "the white demo" what your really mean is what Arbitron calls "other" or "non-Hispanic white" or "non-ethnic listeners" as, otherwise, you are including over a million Hispanics in your blanket "white" descripton.

 

[TheRover]

If KLUV had a survey taker at the local mall asking folks if they thought a 300-song playlist was a great way to cover the entire history of pop oldies, I don't think the response would be positive.

This is true, and it is why stations don't research that way. Even I would say that I wanted more variety than that or something to that effect. However, sit me and another 99 listeners to a station down and play me the songs, and I will tell you one by one which I want to hear a lot, a little and never. So will the rest of the room, and that is how we find a group of songs that are not so negative to parts of the audience as to drive them away. If there were more songs in any particular format, we would play them. There is no programming reason to reduce the playlist... the reasons all come from having the listeners score the songs individually.

But David, as the playlists are massaged, the listening audience is conditioned to "sameness", and not diversity. You're influencing what the audience ends up saying they want to hear. You're conditiong them to sameness. I know it works as a business model, but I do not think that it is a "good" music service to the listening public.

I don't get the concept that something that rocks would not be received well by an audience that already has a taste for good rock. "Misty Mountain Hop" is a great rocker, and a staple on Classic Rock playlists. But, "Four Sticks" is also a wonderful rocker. I just don't see listeners that love "Misty Mountain Hop" turning off the station when an equally good rocker like "Four Sticks" comes on. ( I turn off the station when an artist that I do not like comes on... but if a well established artist has songs already in rotation, then, I don't buy that the listeners are going to abandon an artist they already like, just because it has not already been in heavy rotation for 20 years...) I think there are many songs from Classic Rock artists (artists that are already being played) that could be added to Classic Rock playlists, that would --not-- be stretching the listeners' ears, only adding more depth. It's not Rocket Science - to me.

If someone likes "Misty Mountain Hop".... then we already have the same tatses. I am not asking them to change their tastes. I know that "The Crunge" is an acquired taste, and I would not play it. These levels of discernment... they are not that rare..

 

[davideduardo]

But David, as the playlists are massaged, the listening audience is conditioned to "sameness", and not diversity. You're influencing what the audience ends up saying they want to hear. You're conditiong them to sameness. I know it works as a business model, but I do not think that it is a "good" music service to the listening public.

But stations don't just research what they are already playing. About half the songs on any test don't pass the minimum criteria. And programmers are always adding songs to each test to see if they might be playable, and retesting songs that dropped off that may have reseted enough to come back and retying other songs that might be liked by the audience, even if the station has not played them before but some competitor has.

Other than that, we go by the decision of the "average" listener, and songs that people give negative scores to are ones that when played will make listeners go to another station.

I don't get the concept that something that rocks would not be received well by an audience that already has a taste for good rock. "Misty Mountain Hop" is a great rocker, and a staple on Classic Rock playlists. But, "Four Sticks" is also a wonderful rocker. I just don't see listeners that love "Misty Mountain Hop" turning off the station when an equally good rocker like "Four Sticks" comes on. ( I turn off the station when an artist that I do not like comes on... but if a well established artist has songs already in rotation, then, I don't buy that the listeners are going to abandon an artist they already like, just because it has not already been in heavy rotation for 20 years...) I think there are many songs from Classic Rock artists (artists that are already being played) that could be added to Classic Rock playlists, that would --not-- be stretching the listeners' ears, only adding more depth. It's not Rocket Science - to me.

Having done a classic rock station quite recently, I can give an example that shows people do not want to hear lesser known non-hit songs. We had the pretty standard classic rock library of around 500 to 600 titles, and a nice little average share of nearly 20. Another station decided to come after us, and we guessed the library had 1800 cuts, but that was hard to establish because none of us had even heard some of the songs before, so it was tough to get a real count. Anyway, the challenger never got over a 1.8 share, and eventually went away. Our research said that, simply, the listeners did not hear their favorite songs enough, and they heard too many songs they did not know.

The vast majority of listeners do not go to the radio for a lot of unfamiliar songs. Maybe a couple a week, well sold and well presented.But not deep cuts and not unknown bands.

 

[MikeShannon914]

Aren't you doing traffic at a news station? Didn't realize that that position gave you insight to what music stations in the market are doing research wise. So is the 'ill-researched" complete hyperbole, you talking out your 'A(buttocks)**", or do you have something to back that up.

Speaking of 'A(buttocks)**", what bug crawled up yours? And your real name and occupation, please, since I assume you have something valuable to offer here, or maybe your employer was one of the ones who blew all that money on this recent research and hopes there's some value to it. Besides, you're always taking me to task over something...so I assume it's something personal and has "little" to do with the subject matter.

It's an OPINION. You don't have to accept it or believe it or buy into it. I'm just an armchair programmer who's no better or worse than anyone else on here. Sheesh, get over it. Tell me what YOU think, sans the hate. I'm sure you have some keen insight (seriously) and I'd like to hear it.

I don't speak on behalf of my employer, contractor, job or duties. 99% of the time, I'm on here speaking as a discouraged, disenfranchised radio listener, which I was LONG before the traffic gig, and will probably be long after. Really, all I have to do is listen to the current product on various stations to get a feel for who's doing their research and who's not. I know "I'M" not being asked. (Perhaps that's a small mercy to some programmer out there.) I also compare this to what USED to be played on the air. Sure, not scientific, not measured, and I'm probably a fool for trusting my own perception and memories, or even my own judgment for what's "good music" and what's not. It's all subjective, you know, whether something's researched or just guessed at...My point here is that there are OTHER choices for formats (or songs within a current format) that could be used simply to break up the monotony. Everyone's different. The other point is that programming seems to be dictated by sales, or by management that came out of sales. They want the easiest thing to sell, so experimentation or taking any kind of programming risk is out of the question (save for KZPS.) But even on the safe side, there are successful formats in other markets that are not being used here. I just want to hear something different. I want a wider variety of songs, no matter what the format. I want the jock to talk to ME and entertain me and tell me about things that might interest me (or to do those things for their intended demo, not just liner card reading and 6 seconds of filler.) I don't want to hear 20 mins of spots before returning to the music. Not all the formats are garbage, but the FORMATICS are.

KESN vs KTCK? Somebody's not waging much of a war from one side. There are other "battles," like KSCS vs KPLX, K-104 vs KBFB, etc, but that's no longer the rule.

 

[gagorder]

Good Discussion,if you eliminate DE's sales/managment bias and Little one's sales nausea. Mike handily won this one. Despite what those in management/CONsultant/sales geeks state..there is NO COMPETITION except in Country and your "spanish is a language not a format" formats,plus "alleged" news , and talk (informercials for the GOP).
There is no Innovation with the exception of KZPS. All you have is cut ,cut, cheap, cheap being hummed in the halls. In that case there is competition only in sales, Programming is a casuality that even careflight couldn't rescue. The management as Mike said cut their teeth in sales,and obviously lost their common sense on the teething ring. VERY RARE does a PD become management anymore and when they do,the higher ups brainwash them,then they soon forget that good programming matters. Face it folks listenership is declining and you can blame ipods and the internet all you want, and disguise it as the reason. Radio programming overall reeks,no matter how much dressing you pour on to make it test better it still tastes like crap. Too many spot loads per hour,same old songs rapidly fired away,new music quickly written produced, with very little staying power, personalities eliminated by a Josef Stalin like firing squad, and those that stay are forced to cut actual funny bits, and read liners without the art of the adlib. Hire the ten dollar an hr kid board op or someone desperate enough to want to stay in radio he/she will take it with no benefits,and no hope of a raise,but by golly the sales people will get one.

There used to be a thing called radio, that many enjoyed listening to. Now very few do, and they are called Consultants and account execs. The real listener has moved because the radio they used to listen to has grown weeds and gathered moss. It used to be informative and entertaining,now its become no more than an advertising filer clogging your mailbox.

 

[davideduardo]

Good Discussion,if you eliminate DE's sales/managment bias ....

My sales and management focus has something to do with the fact that I like to get paid. If stations are not commercially successful, programmers do not get rewarded with a check. Our job, as programmers, is to create a product that appeals to listeners and is also saleable. Radio does not exist in a vacuum, and it is not a pure artform. Gaugan and Pissaro could live off the generosity of friends while they painted and nobody bought, but radio stations can not.

Mike handily won this one. Despite what those in management/CONsultant/sales geeks state..there is NO COMPETITION except in Country and your "spanish is a language not a format" formats,plus "alleged" news , and talk (informercials for the GOP).

With the fragmentation of formats that began in the late 60's, and the increase in viable stations in each market by a factor of two or three as FM became dominant, direct format battles have become indirect... a hot AC going against the week ends of the AC and the CHR, or the Urban AC going against the 25+ of the Urban station. To say there is no competiton is absurd... there is lots of competiton, and the average surveyed raido listener uses 3 stations regularly... and in the PPM, we see 3 to 4 more secondary stations for each listener. Oldies competes with the upper demos of country.

Small correction: in the Hispanic arena, these are the formats: KESS Personalty mainstream reagional Mexican. KNOR Hardcore 18-24 regional Mexican, current based, KDOC Norteña, KLNO Personality classic hits with KEGL being a copy of KLNO... the only format duplication in the Spanish language sector, in fact.

There is no Innovation with the exception of KZPS. All you have is cut ,cut, cheap, cheap being hummed in the halls.

And KZPS is struggling. Economy was the rule always... I remember having to bring my own toilet paper in 1960... businesses do not run as charities.

VERY RARE does a PD become management anymore and when they do,the higher ups brainwash them,then they soon forget that good programming matters.

A manager manages. They delegate engineering to the CE, programming to the PD and the corporate programming decision makers; managers that do not delegate and hire people better than they are in every department are not very good managers. And very few PDs became managers, now or in the past.

Face it folks listenership is declining and you can blame ipods and the internet all you want, and disguise it as the reason.

Listenership is declining very slowly, and has been for nearly 20 years... in terms of time spent listening. There are many more reasons than just iPods... there are 125 million gaming consoles in the US, and people work longer hours and have more leisure time options. Cable is more prevalent, movies are downloadable, etc., etc. To not expect a decline is unreasonable. Yet approximately the same numbers of people use radio as ever... around 95% in all demos combined. Yeah, teens are listening less but the main reason there is that radio can no longer target them because there is virtually no teen money, and appealing to teens will cut you out of the beer and wine dollars, so you lose even more.

Radio programming overall reeks,no matter how much dressing you pour on to make it test better it still tastes like crap. Too many spot loads per hour,same old songs rapidly fired away,new music quickly written produced, with very little staying power, personalities eliminated by a Josef Stalin like firing squad, and those that stay are forced to cut actual funny bits, and read liners without the art of the adlib. Hire the ten dollar an hr kid board op or someone desperate enough to want to stay in radio he/she will take it with no benefits,and no hope of a raise,but by golly the sales people will get one.

The spot loads today are considerably less than Top 40 stations had in the 50's and 60's...

Music is "good" in the ear of the listener. You may not like hip hop, but many people think it is great and their opinion is as valid as yours.

Personalities have more stability now than in the Uhaul days of the 60's and 70's...

There are abuses, cut corners, and such but there always have been.

There used to be a thing called radio, that many enjoyed listening to. Now very few do, and they are called Consultants and account execs. The real listener has moved because the radio they used to listen to has grown weeds and gathered moss. It used to be informative and entertaining,now its become no more than an advertising filer clogging your mailbox.

It's funny, but when I talk to listeners, I do not find blanket indictments of radio as a medium. I find specific complaints (#1 DJs wo talk too much. #2 DJs who talk up to the post #3 songs I don't like. #4 commercials) about specific stations, and a lot of love for favorite stations and the talents on them.

 

[VERITAS DE VOCE]

Hell, I just wish I knew how DE does the multiple quote thing like that... what a master ;D

 

[davideduardo]

Hell, I just wish I knew how DE does the multiple quote thing like that... what a master ;D

It's simple.... put

at the beginning of every cite from the prior post and

at the end. Preserve the topmost poster's header, though. The alternative is to bold and italicize or color the cite to make it different.

 

[MikeShannon914]

Thanks, DE, for all the insight. I don't always agree with your take on things, but your explanations were very enlightening.

 

[floodzonex]

Modern/Active Rock

How would you do it? What do you think the Edge would do to fight it? Make it like The End or KNRK or Indie?

 

[little1]

what bug crawled up yours? And your real name and occupation, please,

No thanks. I'm on record here as thinking that one of the stations I work for SUCKS. I don't need a boss or co-worker seeing that opinion and connecting it to me, thank you very much..

Besides, you're always taking me to task over something...so I assume it's something personal and has "little" to do with the subject matter.

There's nothing personal in it what so ever. Maybe if you feel like your being taken to task, you should rexamine what you're posting.

It's an OPINION. You don't have to accept it or believe it or buy into it. I'm just an armchair programmer who's no better or worse than anyone else on here. Sheesh, get over it. Tell me what YOU think, sans the hate. I'm sure you have some keen insight (seriously) and I'd like to hear it.

Right, it's an opinion. But generally if you have an opinion (that the music is ill-researched) people have a reason for that opinion. Do you have ANYTHING besides 'gut instinct' that tells you all this research being done is FUBAR? I mean, you may be right. I'm just wondering of you have ANYTHING at all to base that opinion on.

And a postscript on this- from what I've seen on this board there are people that actually understand programming and people who work in programming. And it's obvious from some of the comments that there's a huge difference. For example, suggesting that a station that has comparitively low cume and low TSL broaden their playlist is programming suicide. (since generally the wider the playlist the lower the TSL-people punch out on unfamiliar song syndrome)...So no offense, but I think it's obvious that their are a lot of armchair programmers here. Just not a lot with a whole ton of credibility...

I also compare this to what USED to be played on the air. Sure, not scientific, not measured, and I'm probably a fool for trusting my own perception and memories, or even my own judgment for what's "good music" and what's not. It's all subjective, you know, whether something's researched or just guessed at...

But that's the point. Get tied into the right circles and you'll probablyhear rumors of who's doing research and who's not. Who's shelling out cash for a music test and even more cash for a perceptual or market study.

My point here is that there are OTHER choices for formats (or songs within a current format) that could be used simply to break up the monotony. Everyone's different. The other point is that programming seems to be dictated by sales, or by management that came out of sales. They want the easiest thing to sell

,
It's called capitalism. Perhaps you've heard of it? People bitch that there's too many talk stations and too many sports stations. Want to know why that is? Because the top 2 billers in the market are WBAP and KTCK. Both bill upwards of 20 million annually. Would you rather go a piece of their pie, (and let's say you get 1/4 of it) or get half of the 8 million dollar pie that some much lower billing station is getting? Which would you rather have, 5 million or 4 million? I'veever worked in sales a day in my life, but I understand economics...

I just want to hear something different. I want a wider variety of songs, no matter what the format.

Back to programming 101...How long a day do you listen. How long a day does your 'average' listener listen. If you have low TSL, what possible reason would there be to not repeat your 'power' songs (whether it be the top 40 for CHR, the top of your formats chart for active, AAA, country, etc) , the best testing songs for oldies, classic rock, etc...)as much as possible. WLS 'back in teh day' knew that the average listener was there for about 40-45 minutes. (the average commute from the loop to most suburbs) So they played the #1 song every 65 minutes. And they DOMINATED for years. Sure people who listened longer whined about the repition. But it's about programming to the AVERAGE listener. Not the heaviest consumers...

KESN vs KTCK? Somebody's not waging much of a war from one side. There are other "battles," like KSCS vs KPLX, K-104 vs KBFB, etc, but that's no longer the rule.

Well, KESN certainly seems to be spending a lot on billboards to tell me that they have both Hansen and Galloway. So the opinion of whether they're waging a war is certainly debatable. (Now, ESPN might not be WINNING, but I think you have to agree they're at least fighting)

But the funny thing, in one post you say there seems to be a gentleman's agreement not to go head to head. Then today you post 2 more example of stations going head to head...

 

[gagorder]

Sorry Gents D.E.'s long cure your insomnia approach to posting and Little one's looking from the wrong end of a telescope viewpoint,shows that sales have saturated their perspective of what good programming is and what trash it has deteriorated into now. Mike's OPINION far out weighs their "spinology". They could spin a skunk's odor in to Chanel number 5 if you allow it. Bottom line, no matter ,listeners are leaving radio. TSL's are dewindling down and "spinning" is setting new levels of acceptance. Sorta like a co-dependent of an alcoholic,denying there is a porblem. The problem is simple ,the programming is boring, unfulfilling except to ad agencies, sales,etc. More bartered time is being used ,more infomercials implanted to hold the bottom line ,when the basics of programing could be used. DE I won't respond to your long worn blown explanations,because frankly I have seen you been wrong on numerous occasions,with never an admission of doing so. So with this exception,don't seek to engage me,it will fall on more focused eyes seeking a better dialog with a more credible source.
Little one if you hate your station,then try to change it or must you go with the flow? I am certain with your saturation in sales you could land anywhere unlike a good solid program talent,that stations dont seem to want anymore and dont care what goes on the air as long as it sells.

 

[davideduardo]

Bottom line, no matter ,listeners are leaving radio. TSL's are dewindling down and "spinning" is setting new levels of acceptance.

TSLs have been slowly declinging since the late 80's... that is 20 years! There has been no obvious "additional impact" of the most recent developments such as the much-discussed iPod or satellite. Over two decades, there have been significant changes in the weekly hours worked per person, the amount of leisure time, and the variety of the array of leisure-time activities available in this country. When we look at cause and effeect of TSL change (from just over 20 hours in the late 80's to today's diary-methodology average of around 18 hours or between 12% and 15% in most markets) we see that no single event is at cause. It's the sum of video games, portable media players for video and games, expansion and fragmentation of cable channels, the Internet including video, audio streaming and content, HDTV, the DVD, TiVo and other delayed viewing options for TV, etc., etc.

Within this context, the usage of radio on the cume level has suffered only tiny changes, mostly in the demographics radio is unable to serve, 12-17 and 55+. There have always been a few percent (5% to 6%) that do and did not listen, going back to the first Arbitron survey in 1965, and another percentage that listens in alight manner. This has not changed, and it appears that much of the alternative-to-radio media has had its biggest impact in these areas which do not affect terrestrial radio much, if at all.

DE I won't respond to your long worn blown explanations,because frankly I have seen you been wrong on numerous occasions,with never an admission of doing so.

I have no recollection of such incidents; you need to distinguish between issues of opinion and issues of fact. In this post, you have made claims about declines in listening with absolutely no quantification!

 

[TheRover]

RADIO LAST By Bob Leftsetz

I thought the remarks of someone "in the business", would be interesting.

He is Bob Lefsetz, Santa Monica-based industry legend, is the author of the e-mail newsletter, "The Lefsetz Letter". Famous for being beholden to no one, and speaking the truth, Lefsetz addresses the issues that are at the core of the music business: downloading, copy protection, pricing and the music itself. His intense brilliance captivates readers from Steven Tyler to Rick Nielsen to Bryan Adams to Quincy Jones to EVERYBODY who's in the music business. Never boring, always entertaining, Mr. Lefsetz's insights are fueled by his stint as an entertainment business attorney, majordomo of Sanctuary Music's American division and consultancies to major labels.

-------------------------------------------------------

Here's a Newsletter from Bob entitled: RADIO LAST

"Last night I had a dream
You were in it
And I was in it with you
And everyone I know
And everyone you know was in my dream"

I was at a radio convention. And there was a band playing on stage. Their number resembled Vanilla Fudge's reworking of "You Keep Me Hangin' On". The lead singer was blond, and he was playing a portable keyboard. But there were two more keyboard players behind him, and one to the side. Like I said, it was a dream.

And it was clear that this song was a hit. Oh, it needed to be polished, finished in the recording studio, but it had the raw essence. Actually, it was more than that, this band HAD IT! They lacked charisma, but the instrumentation was innovative, the sound was low-key, it wasn't in your face, but the melody was catchy, and your mind was set adrift.

And when the band finished playing, a guy near the stage started pontificating, about the radio plan. And I shouted out from the back, RADIO LAST!

The whole room went quiet. Everybody looked at me. I had the feeling that drove me to psychotherapy.

I don't know what it is about altitude, but I've been having crazy dreams all week. Last night's starred my ex-wife. For a long time. Usually, she just makes brief appearances. The distance, the superiority, the manipulation, it creeped me out. Then my friend Kate let me out the back door to avoid the killers. I flew to South America to evade their grasp. But the most memorable dream I had was the one in the middle, with the band and the radio convention.

Radio conventions used to rule. Radio used to be what it was about. That was the goal, TO GET ON THE RADIO! Back when radio was addictive, when it was the tribal drum, when you had to be tuned in to know what was going on.

Oh, first there was Top Forty. I'm considering 1964 Year One, when the Beatles broke, everything before that is B.C.E., before the common era. But then there was free format. Free format was about the EXPERIENCE! The deejays picked the tunes, they took you on an aural adventure. Then came AOR. AOR wasn't so bad at first. A lot of songs were played, there was hip news, everybody was in it together. Then came corporate rock, and eventually the whole system crumbled, especially when these same AOR stations wouldn't play Human League's "Don't You Want Me" and Soft Cell's "Tainted Love". AOR lost its stranglehold on the audience. Suddenly, AOR wasn't cool. And suddenly, RADIO wasn't cool anymore either. MTV was where it was at. And new Top Forty radio stations grew side by side with the video channel, to play the same hits. And then came the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and radio consolidation and the whole system imploded, radio no longer mattered.

And it still doesn't. Everybody believes radio sucks.

But with MTV not playing any music, radio is the easiest way to reach the most people, so the major labels, interested in making a buck, focus on these lame stations. They can only see through this prism. Whereas only the lowest common denominator music fan still trusts the radio. Radio is a joke.

So you go to radio last. If you want cred, if you want to have a career.

That's what I was going to tell the assembled multitude, if they'd ever opened their mouths, if it wasn't a "Springtime For Hitler" moment, if I hadn't woken up.

Take the easy way out and longevity eludes you. You've got to grow from the ground up if you want to have a career today.

Used to be you had to build it on the road. And that's still a good plan, but it's slow. Although fans made on the road last forever, since it's about the performance, and you've got to be good live to win people over.

Now you can also gain traction on the Web. Just as long as you're not pushing. Street teams are just one level above radio, they lack trustworthiness too. Can you say SPAM? If someone says ANYTHING is that great, especially if you don't know the sender, the poster, you tune it out. We can tell what's real. Hell, are you ever confused, do you ever believe a spam e-mail is a real one?

No, you've got to get your act going through word of mouth. You've got to be good, and then you have to give people the tools. You've got to post MP3s that you allow people to trade, you've got to have a Website updated DAILY! You've got to have a policed message board. You've got to have a real bio, hopefully a road diary. You've got to be a friend. You can't be above the audience. That's for doofuses like Paris Hilton. Real musicians are in it together with their audience.

Point is, a friend sends you an MP3. And if you like it, you want more. You immediately go to the band's site. Maybe even their MySpace page. But MySpace is to CHECK OUT an act. If someone is already a believer they want a hub that's the act's own. Without endless Flash animation, but tons of useful information.

And if you're good, word spreads. But there's never an overwhelming sense of ubiquity. Because there's no place to EVIDENCE this on the Web. There's no SoundScan number. No Top Ten. No site that rates ascension of a new act. It eludes the system, therefore the only person who knows something is happening is the act itself. And fans continue to build the act, telling everybody about their newfound favorite. You can be a star and nobody really knows. You've got something real that can't be quantified by traditional metrics. Because the traditional metrics quantify everything but soul. There's no soul in a sale. But soul is what keeps people dedicated.

And THEN, MAYBE, you have a radio hit. Sweeping up newbies, but not alienating the hard core, that knows you're real.

Classic example, the Dave Matthews Band. By time "Crash Into Me" hit, the act had hundreds of thousands, if not MILLIONS of fans, who were THRILLED the act they'd been into for years was getting the recognition they believed it deserved.

In other words, radio comes last. It's the icing on the cake. It's the victory lap. It's the seal on stardom. IT'S NO LONGER THE BEGINNING!

If you're BREAKING an act on radio, you can bet it won't last long, it will never be classic. You break an act in the audience's hearts and minds. Reached in these new ways. To think otherwise is to be in it for short term gain.

"I saw a vampire
I saw a ghost
Everybody scared me but you sacred me the most
In the dream I had last night
In the dream I had last night
In my dream"

There used to be promo people, radio consultants, the people in attendance at the conference in my dream. There are people like this who still exist in the music industry today. They spread their bull$#*@, make like their old ways still rule. But if this were so, why would radio listenership be dropping? Why would CD sales be off 15% this year?

It's a new era. To hold on to the old ways is to be Michael Dell. Someone who created a system that delivered riches that ultimately became outmoded. Breaking acts on radio is an outmoded paradigm. Unfortunately, like Michael Dell, the old music industry guard doesn't know what to do. They know they want to continue to rule, but they can't make up for being asleep at the wheel for the better part of a decade.

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